List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[FreoMonocle]

I'd love to see Stephen Hill start kicking goals from outside 50 on the run because its a thing of beauty and why I watch sport to see moments like that.

He's trying to kick a team goal, maybe by his own boot or assisting someone else. He's not on field to titillate you, he is out there to win in a team sport.

 

[Scham]

Games played in brackets.

FB: Ryan Hamling (45) Hughes (24)
HB: Wilson (77) A. Pearce(21) Logue
C: B. Hill (117) Blakely (33) S. Hill (190)
HF: Bennell (83) Taberner (53) Walters (111)
FF: Darcy McCarthy(40) Matera (101)

R: Sandilands (254) Fyfe (138) Neale (113)

I: Tucker (31) Mundy (272) Brayshaw Ballantyne (151)


FB: Spurr(120) Johnson (231) Nyhuis
HB: Sutcliffe (100) Cox Sheridan (68)
C: North Banfield D. Pearce (255)
HF: Langdon (25) Dixon Grey
FF: Giro Kersten (57) Apeness

R: Jones Cerra Crowden

If you have a look at the teams above there's plenty of experience in our rough best 22 with only 4 players who've played less than 20 games and of those Ryan is mature aged.

There's also plenty of experienced players in the depth 22 with all able to fill holes in the best 22 quite well to well. There's also plenty of young talent in the depth that look able to also fill holes or better.

So of the 17 players under 20 games, Switkowski is mature age ala Graham from the Tigers that stepped straight in. Apeness and Jones also mature aged. Apeness has shown he can be competitive at AFL level.
Grey, Cox, Logue, Darcy, Ryan and Nyhuis have also proven to be competitive at the top level (at worst).
Cerra, Crowden, Brayshaw, North and Banfield are all built to play and are all looking good in the preseason.
Which just leaves Giro, Duman, Strnadica and Dixon to further develop.

I think the list is in great shape with more than ample depth and high quality across all ages.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

There are a few posters who began with the mantra that Lyon only coaches teams with established/mature lists and would go to Collingwood/Carlton/GWS as soon as he had burnt our list and our window was closed. They morphed into a chorus of Lyon has never/cannot rebuild. Now there is a third wave with the old retro-chorus that Lyon only knows defense. The evidence shows that the planning is heading in a different direction with speed, skill by hand and foot, natural footballing ability and character being foundation stones.

We are entering a period where the players need to learn what to do, and it is unrealistic to expect a defense as young as ours to perform well. Some of the older players are retained specifically for this transition phase, but for sure there will be posters having a sook because MJ, Sandilands, Spurr or Ballantyne are getting games. They will feel vindicated when those players are cut next season. They will bleat like lambs when Brayshaw, Carra and Crowden are held back in the wafl for half a dozen games.

This is classic off season banter. I don't mind it to be honest. I even find the personal poster stoushes amusing for a page or two, but then just can't believe people have the stamina to maintain their rage.

I think Lyon is one of the smartest and clearest thinking coaches in the game. Players love and respect him and he wins games (yet to win the big one blah blah blah). While I don't think he will change his spots I have seen that he does evolve his game plan. We have a great opportunity to see him evolve this list, and I think we are beautifully positioned for the next period of our history.

I still believe Darcy Fogarty would have been an excellent fit for what we are trying to build.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

Mate if we cop hidings like we did against the Tigers at home, I think Ross will be in a bit of trouble but that's my opinion.

You mean the game we had 11 players with under 50 games 6 of whom had a combined total of under 25 games ?

 

[Demons09]

You mean the game we had 11 players with under 50 games 6 of whom had a combined total of under 25 games ?

We shouldn't be losing games at home by over a hundred points regardless of how young our list is especially when Richmonds list was young as ours , lack of effort after qtr time was more indicative of our effort, the Tigers weren't a hundred point better team even with our very young team.

 

[sherrif]

For sure if we somehow only get injuries to fringe players, but that is pretty much the same as not getting injuries at all (from a Freo performance perspective).

Depth isn't just about being able to replace your bottom 6 players, you have to be able to cover the loss of important players as well.

After our top 15 or so, it drops away quickly and as you say there is a LOT of players around that same level (ie unproven/not that good). Those players are fine with all the guns playing so they are only the role players. They are NOT up to carrying the team. As soon as we have say 3-4 key players out, suddenly you have to "carry" 10 or 11 (instead of 6-7) who can contribute but won't do enough heavy lifting to compete week in, week out.

TLDR - we don't have effective depth. We have bulk fringe players.

Unless a couple of the kids are ready to go from early in the year. Then all of a sudden we have excellent depth. Too early in the year to tell. If someone like Banfield is dominating WAFL and ready to go then suddenly there is an addition of depth to the list compared to a year ago. Look at Sydney. The still have excellent depth because they uncovered a few very promising players at the same time a few players retired. The scope for improvement of players outside our best 15 is actually huge in my view. The good news of our depth this year compared to a year ago is the gigantic scope for improvement in terms of availability. Last year we had four players on our list A.Pearce, Apenness, Uebergang and Yarran who played one half of WAFL reserve football between them, while a couple of others in Sandy, Bennell and Ballanyne who had years greatly effected by injury. With everything being equal I expect our ability to cover for injury of 3 or 4 key players to be massively improved in 2018.

 

[Fred Ziffel]

We shouldn't be losing games at home by over a hundred points regardless of how young our list is especially when Richmonds list was young as ours , lack of effort after qtr time was more indicative of our effort, the Tigers weren't a hundred point better team even with our very young team.

There were a number of games lost by 100 pts plus last year.
We copped it twice, to a very good Sydney and to the eventual premier. We had the same kids in both losses and with our season already over.
I don't like it but I can understand it with such a very inexperienced team.
If my memory serves me correct, Mike Sheahan asked precious Jack after Richmond's game if he would be embarrassed to wear a Freo jumper: Jack told him it was a deeply offensive question and to piss off as he had never played top level footy. He added, Freo had fielded the youngest side they had encountered all year.

If we have to endure floggings like that it is far better under the above circumstances.
Importantly, we will be better for it......and for Coach Lyon's part, I have seen him more upset after a loss than those two games. I think Ross gets it.

 

[sherrif]

We do have 10 players who are past it or never made, and we drafted 10 players last year (roughly).

Some of these players will play this year e.g. Mundy and Sandi but I doubt any will be on our list in 2020 and most should not be on the list next year (The 10 players on there way out)
Mundy
Sandi
D Pearce
Sutcliffe
Sheridan
Spurr
Apeness??
M Johnson
Grey
Ballas

That means half our list are on there way out of the club or are in there 1st year. Based on this alone our depth is poor as the vast majority of 1st year players can not run out game.

Your depth is good when you struggle to delist 3 players a year.

Even by your own evaluation I would have thought having 3/4 of the list either on the way up or at their prime means the opposite of your point that our depth is poor. A much higher percentage than most lists of players on the way up. For the record Im not sure how you could categorically make an assessment that Grey should not be in the list. He was more than handy when playing for Freo last year in my view. Sandy's form until injured last year showed that he was far from past it. While Apeness may or may not make it, but far from definite too. Even Sheridan still has his best footy ahead of him and may yet surprise as being a handy player to have on a list.

 

[theGav56]

If the side doesn't improve this season Lyon will definitely be under pressure. Nothing wrong with that. But he would certainly be coach in 2019.

 

[Joao]

Unless a couple of the kids are ready to go from early in the year. Then all of a sudden we have excellent depth. Too early in the year to tell. If someone like Banfield is dominating WAFL and ready to go then suddenly there is an addition of depth to the list compared to a year ago. Look at Sydney. The still have excellent depth because they uncovered a few very promising players at the same time a few players retired. The scope for improvement of players outside our best 15 is actually huge in my view. The good news of our depth this year compared to a year ago is the gigantic scope for improvement in terms of availability. Last year we had four players on our list A.Pearce, Apenness, Uebergang and Yarran who played one half of WAFL reserve football between them, while a couple of others in Sandy, Bennell and Ballanyne who had years greatly effected by injury. With everything being equal I expect our ability to cover for injury of 3 or 4 key players to be massively improved in 2018.

That whole post is what ifs though.

None of those players have proved it which is my whole point. I heartily agree that we have huge scope for improvement but to assume that multiple players are going to improve to cover the loss of say Walters, Neale, Sandi and SHill is just supporter optimism. We may get a couple of players get up to say Blakely level, but even he is a rung (or two) behind that lot.

Also, Sydney is a different club with a very different list. Of course you can uncover the odd gem to have in your bottom 6 if you keep the majority of your B22 on the park, which they have done recently.

If the side doesn't improve this season Lyon will definitely be under pressure. Nothing wrong with that. But he would certainly be coach in 2019.

I think and hope we have some genuine pressure heading into 2019, I think it is good for the players to get used to it and next year should be the year we see it start to come together.

 

[Demons09]

There were a number of games lost by 100 pts plus last year.
We copped it twice, to a very good Sydney and to the eventual premier. We had the same kids in both losses and with our season already over.
I don't like it but I can understand it with such a very inexperienced team.
If my memory serves me correct, Mike Sheahan asked precious Jack after Richmond's game if he would be embarrassed to wear a Freo jumper: Jack told him it was a deeply offensive question and to piss off as he had never played top level footy. He added, Freo had fielded the youngest side they had encountered all year.

If we have to endure floggings like that it is far better under the above circumstances.
Importantly, we will be better for it......and for Coach Lyon's part, I have seen him more upset after a loss than those two games. I think Ross gets it.

The same team put up a good effort against an Essendon side having to win to make finals away from home I've no doubt that Lyon demanded more effort than what they gave in those big losses.

All I'm saying is if we have those big losses this year it wont be tolerated from a team that should be contending in a couple of years.

One good thing about the new stadium hopefully I won't be surrounded by piss weak supporters who give their tickets away when things aren't going right as I had to listen to Richmond flogs for two hours that day.

 

[Joao]

The same team put up a good effort against an Essendon side having to win to make finals away from home I've no doubt that Lyon demanded more effort than what they gave in those big losses.

All I'm saying is if we have those big losses this year it wont be tolerated from a team that should be contending in a couple of years.

One good thing about the new stadium hopefully I won't be surrounded by piss weak supporters who give their tickets away when things aren't going right as I had to listen to Richmond flogs for two hours that day.

Yeah it will be tolerated. Unless there is like 7/8 80pt+ thrashings in which case he may get sacked. We are not that bad and the rest of the comp isn't that good to do it if we put in effort.

Multiple 100pt poundings would suck and probably transfer some pressure onto Ross, but everyone here needs to get their head around the fact that at some stage this season, teams are going to get a hold of us. It doesn't mean Ross has lost the players or can't coach either.

**** both GF teams got pantsed this year. Adelaide conceded 10 goals to 0 in a quarter against North. Might Al Clarkson got belted by the Gold Coast. It happens.

 

[SHill Shall]

Go back and read threads from early 2012 and you can see people on here pencilling in Sheridan, Crozier, Mora (and I am sure plenty of others since delisted) in as future stars etc.

The simple fact of the matter is around half of our list has played less than 20 games. However good they might seem on paper or in a hypothetical 2020 B22 or something, they simply don't perform anywhere near the level required week in week out to cover quality players getting injured.

Seems to me we have 20 new players and they haven't been here long enough to get scapegoated for not being awesome therefore they are all super stars. TBH, I am sure a few will be but not yet.

Also "but they have shown enough at AFL or youth level to suggest that their future augurs well" is really irrelevant in terms of getting it done in 2018. It may be that they all end up good or better. Right now though, based on performance to date the only one we can be sure is up to it this year is Bennell (since he has performed at a high level previously) and even that is * because of injury. The rest have not even remotely displayed sustained high level performance that would make up for a quality player missing.

The difference is that in 2012, we had players with limitations such as Suban, Mayne, Clancee, Kepler, De Boer and Mzungu lining up ahead of Sheridan, Crozier, Mora. We all knew they were not the full quid, but accepted them as being part of the core.

I think the more critical concern today is that we have few players in the classic 25 to 29 age group with 100 plus games to their names. But offsetting that we have a greater number of players that appear able to deliver at the top level but just haven’t done it on a sustained basis yet (Ryan, Cox, Darcy, Logue, Langdon, Tucker). I wouldn’t describe that as a “depth” issue - rather a maturity and experience issue.

 

[sherrif]

That whole post is what ifs though.

None of those players have proved it which is my whole point. I heartily agree that we have huge scope for improvement but to assume that multiple players are going to improve to cover the loss of say Walters, Neale, Sandi and SHill is just supporter optimism. We may get a couple of players get up to say Blakely level, but even he is a rung (or two) behind that lot.

Also, Sydney is a different club with a very different list. Of course you can uncover the odd gem to have in your bottom 6 if you keep the majority of your B22 on the park, which they have done recently.


I think and hope we have some genuine pressure heading into 2019, I think it is good for the players to get used to it and next year should be the year we see it start to come together.

It is not iffs. Simply put it is fact we have a lot of players in age group that should be on the improve. With a lot of players on the way your depth improves significantly. Even in terms of the players you named. Walters, Neale, Fyfe and S.Hill. Brandon Matera is good cover for Wallters, Brayshaw and Cerra both help cover if Neale is out and if S.Hill is out then Langdon and Tucker play a more important role. Darcy is already a good enough ruckman to be described as excellent back-up for. Disagree completely that our depth isnt improving a rapid rate.

 

[Joao]

It is not iffs. Simply put it is fact we have a lot of players in age group that should be on the improve. With a lot of players on the way your depth improves significantly. Even in terms of the players you named. Walters, Neale, Fyfe and S.Hill. Brandon Matera is good cover for Wallters, Brayshaw and Cerra both help cover if Neale is out and if S.Hill is out then Langdon and Tucker play a more important role. Darcy is already a good enough ruckman to be described as excellent back-up for. Disagree completely that our depth isnt improving a rapid rate.

Bolded words says everything. Should isn't a tangible thing that will win you games.

Let me get this straight

Brayshaw and Cerra who combined have played ZERO games of AFL can cover Neale? The same guy who broke the H&A disposal record last season?
I'll give you Matera IF fit and assuming Walters isn't playing midfield, which he did a lot this year.
Darcy is promising, but he is not in Sandi's league yet. Certainly won't embarass himself though.
Langdon is a better replacement for Brad, since he can't kick and isn't very inside. He has a very different game to Shill.
Tucker has shown plenty but has not played at Shilly's level.

A lot of them will improve a significantly, but I'll be (happily) blown away if they get anywhere near the level of those blokes this season.

 

[Joao]

The difference is that in 2012, we had players with limitations such as Suban, Mayne, Clancee, Kepler, De Boer and Mzungu lining up ahead of Sheridan, Crozier, Mora. We all knew they were not the full quid, but accepted them as being part of the core.

I think the more critical concern today is that we have few players in the classic 25 to 29 age group with 100 plus games to their names. But offsetting that we have a greater number of players that appear able to deliver at the top level but just haven’t done it on a sustained basis yet (Ryan, Cox, Darcy, Logue, Langdon, Tucker). I wouldn’t describe that as a “depth” issue - rather a maturity and experience issue.

They will probably be good enough one day but aren't there yet. Hence this year we don't have depth.

I am excited about our future but trying to stay realistic about 2018. I just don't think you can expect a lot from a squad that has 24 players under 24 and 6 over 30 - all of which don't contribute like they used to.

 

[SHill Shall]

Brayshaw and Cerra who combined have played ZERO games of AFL can cover Neale? The same guy who broke the H&A disposal record last season?
I'll give you Matera IF fit and assuming Walters isn't playing midfield, which he did a lot this year.
Darcy is promising, but he is not in Sandi's league yet. Certainly won't embarass himself though.
Langdon is a better replacement for Brad, since he can't kick and isn't very inside. He has a very different game to Shill.

A lot of them will improve a significantly, but I'll be (happily) blown away if they get anywhere near the level of those blokes this season.

But depth or developing players will never operate at the same level as the team’s stars, that’s why they are referred to as .... err ..... depth.

“Andy will be a star” as you have stated in another thread is the point being made. In yesterday year Suban, Clancee and De Boer were never going to be.

 

[SHill Shall]

They will probably be good enough one day but aren't there yet. Hence this year we don't have depth.

I am excited about our future but trying to stay realistic about 2018. I just don't think you can expect a lot from a squad that has 24 players under 24 and 6 over 30 - all of which don't contribute like they used to.

Agree with that statement. I’m cautiously optimistic we are building a deeper squad than any we’ve had before - and one with potential for there to be more stars than we’ve had before.

2018 will go a long way to proving up that thesis, but we won’t be doing any better than about 7th or 8th, and realistically will finish about 11th to 13th.

 

[youmewe]

There were a number of games lost by 100 pts plus last year.
We copped it twice, to a very good Sydney and to the eventual premier. We had the same kids in both losses and with our season already over.
I don't like it but I can understand it with such a very inexperienced team.
If my memory serves me correct, Mike Sheahan asked precious Jack after Richmond's game if he would be embarrassed to wear a Freo jumper: Jack told him it was a deeply offensive question and to piss off as he had never played top level footy. He added, Freo had fielded the youngest side they had encountered all year.

If we have to endure floggings like that it is far better under the above circumstances.
Importantly, we will be better for it......and for Coach Lyon's part, I have seen him more upset after a loss than those two games. I think Ross gets it.

Just a point of clarification Fred (I don’t disagree with your sentiment BTW), there were only five games in 2017 which were decided by 100+ points.

We lost three of them - rd 10 v Adel (100), rd 21 v Syd (104) and rd 22 v Rich (104).
Gold Coast lost the other two - rd 2 v GWS (102) and rd 23 v Port (115).

Incidentally people underestimate how good a season Richmond had in 2017 overall. Obviously winning the flag made it a great season, but they only lost two games all year by more than 14 points. Several brain farts along the way disguised how competitive they were all year long.

 

[Joao]

But depth or developing players will never operate at the same level as the team’s stars, that’s why they are referred to as .... err ..... depth.

“Andy will be a star” as you have stated in another thread is the point being made. In yesterday year Suban, Clancee and De Boer were never going to be.

I am sure I read in a multiple threads about Suban being "our Hodge". Raking left boot with leadership etc.

I love Andy, but he is not covering Neale in 2018 for output at a high enough level to win us games. Depth is only good if you can win when it plays over your good players. I am saying that our depth is not good enough to have us win games when we are missing multiple top 15 players.

Remember our "Best 22" has several developing players already in it. Logue (he is not one of our best 22 players), Hughes, Cam, Pearce (hopefully) and whoever else makes the cut. That is fine when you have our best 15 players or so with them because they can contribute enough around them for us to remain competitive. When you take out 4 genuine best 15 players then suddenly we have around 10 blokes that need to be "carried". That is exactly what happened in the back half of the year. Ross even said in his pressers about how too much was left to too few.

That is why the Sydney comparison is off. Their B22 probably only has 1 or 2 players that are in for development (if that) so that when they have 3 or 4 injuries, they can cope since they still have 15 or so genuinely good players.

 

[SHill Shall]

That is why your Sydney comparison is off. Their B22 probably only has 1 or 2 players that are in for development (if that) so that when they have 3 or 4 injuries, they can cope since they still have 15 or so genuinely good players.

Think you might be confusing posters?

Not helped by me jumping in on another’s original thoughts!

 

[Joao]

Agree with that statement. I’m cautiously optimistic we are building a deeper squad than any we’ve had before - and one with potential for there to be more stars than we’ve had before.

2018 will go a long way to proving up that thesis, but we won’t be doing any better than about 7th or 8th, and realistically will finish about 11th to 13th.

6th+ with all our guns putting out 20+ games and significant improvement from new/young players.
7th or 8th with all our guns putting out 20+ games.
11th to 14th with some injuries.
14th to 17th if we get significant injuries to good players.
18th probably not at all. GC don't play at home for 9 weeks or whatever. They will be flat out winning a couple of games in the first half of the year.

 

[Joao]

Think you might be confusing posters?

I thought of that as I typed it but honestly couldn't be bothered checking it out. Will amend.

 

[sherrif]

Bolded words says everything. Should isn't a tangible thing that will win you games.

Let me get this straight

Brayshaw and Cerra who combined have played ZERO games of AFL can cover Neale? The same guy who broke the H&A disposal record last season?
I'll give you Matera IF fit and assuming Walters isn't playing midfield, which he did a lot this year.
Darcy is promising, but he is not in Sandi's league yet. Certainly won't embarass himself though.
Langdon is a better replacement for Brad, since he can't kick and isn't very inside. He has a very different game to Shill.
Tucker has shown plenty but has not played at Shilly's level.

A lot of them will improve a significantly, but I'll be (happily) blown away if they get anywhere near the level of those blokes this season.

The reason why your points dont make any sense is that you are comparing a star player with a player on the fringes. Every team gets lessened when their best players are out. Anthony Miles comes in for Richmond if Cotchin or Martin are out. It doesnt mean they have bad depth because he wont be able to cover for them, but he is a decent depth player, so it is not a terrible substitute relevant to other players on afl lists outside theiir teams best 22. Darcy, for example isnt as good as Sandi, but that doent mean he is not excellent coverage. Id certainly take Cerra and Brayshaw as depth over say Partington. Our depth isnt bad compared to other afl teams by any stretch. (see replacement players for West Coast or even GWS).

 

[Joao]

The reason why your points dont make any sense is that you are comparing a star player with a player on the fringes. Every team gets lessened when their best players are out. Anthony Miles comes in for Richmond if Cotchin or Martin are out. It doesnt mean they have bad depth because he wont be able to cover for them, but he is a decent depth player so is not a terrible substitute relevant to other players on afl lists outside theiir teams best 22. Darcy, for example isnt as good as Sandi, but that doent mean he is not excellent coverage. Id certainly take Cerra and Brayshaw as depth over say Partington. Our depth isnt bad compared to other afl teams by any stretch. (see replacement players for West Coast or even GWS).

Depth isn't good if you don't win when it covers your good players, agree?