List Mgmt. Ross the Boss

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IMO if we’re going to win a premiership we have to be top 2 scoring side.
Why?
Richmond won in 2017 finishing 8th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.
Western Bulldogs won in 2016 finishing 12th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.

History shows that a good defense is far more important than the ability to attack and score highly when it comes to finals football.
I know it's popular to want Freo to score more, but is it really required or is it an opinion that has been pushed by the AFL and the media.
 
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Some well considered comments. Nothing wrong with withholding judgement until the fat lady gets through a couple of verses.

In the past it's been "Ross can do it" vs "Ross can't do it". Hopefully we're now getting to the point where we can assess whether Ross (and the rest of the club) are or aren't doing it. I think most of us agree that our list is now in good enough shape that barring a catastrophic run with injury we should be on an upward trajectory.

On defense the reality is there's only one footy out there so when the other mob have it defense is how you stop them scoring and get it back. Of course once you do get it back you need to hang onto it and get some value for effort. Sadly the other bastards want to get in the way and stop you playing beautiful footy.

I watched Richmond v Melbourne and the commentary muppets raved about Richmond's pressure. I found it a pretty average game to watch and Melbourne were mediocre opposition. There's a lot of preconception about teams (and coaches) and the fact Richmond won a flag has somehow made them something to aspire despite them managing a whole 85 points from 71 inside 50s last night.

I've always thought Ross could do it with the right list. I think we're close to having what we need and more importantly the list is young enough that we should be set up for an extended tilt at a flag.
 
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None of it changes the fact that the things I've criticised Lyon for in the past were valid at the time IMO. He was too defensive, too conservative and he is a control freak lacking imagination. He is process driven which is his strength (he constantly improves the details and trusts the process) but IMO sometimes to be the best I think football requires brilliance, flair, imagination.

But a creative, flexible intelligence, which I try to maintain demands adapting to new information and I'm seeing green shoots everywhere at the moment. I'm enjoying the footy again, which as I've said before, is all I really wanted - to be entertained. Its is only a game after all.

I'm against blind adherence to any fixed point of view. I will criticise when I perceive things can be improved and acknowledge when I think they're being done well.
While those criticisms of Lyon have merit and are clearly most observable in 2015, there seems to be a mindset where coaching skill is an absolute quality, innate in a person where either they have it or don't. Hardwick is a good example where a coach originally with many flaws has grown into an exceptional leader, and also showing that it can take more than one season to do so. I don't think Lyon was given enough patience particularly when I believe he was more than deserving of it to show that he could adapt, learn and grow as a tactician.

Lyons method was rigid, process driven and defensive but through 2013 - 2015 it was clearly working. But now it's not the way forward and fans examining this and advocating for change is completely valid. But the rhetoric that Lyon is incapable of critical introspection, blind conviction to methods regardless of evidence to the extent he deserved to be sacked as early as 2017 according to some is what I don't agree with.
 

raffrox

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I've checked out of this thread largely because all I really wanted to see was proof that Ross and our style of play had evolved. I've seen that I think so now its about time to consolidate this. Expectations increase but not to a crazy level. 10 wins would be great but I think at our current level of play that could be slightly higher.

More forward options (Hogan, Lobb, Matera hitting the score board, Tabs being back) has let Walters run through the middle more which has worked well so far and the 6-6-6 suits big bodied mids who can win the clearance and give the forwards a chance. This has meant Mundy has been spending more time in the middle (we don't need him forward this year either) and he's been great. Our best player is a big bodied contested ball winning monster which helps.

So basically we have been utilising what we've got a bit better and it's showing. Some will say that this was always coming but I couldn't see it. Now that I can I'm happy to see what happens next and enjoy watching us play a bit more.
 
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I have no doubt that if the club finds itself in premiership mode there will be a reduction in debuts or games for emerging players. Premierships are built on stability, fielding your best 22 as far as possible, relying on players who know their roles and those of the players around them. Even now, once Blakely and SHill get back into the side, it will take some outstanding form for players as well credentialed as Valente and North to force their way in. That won't be getting any easier.
Sure valid point. But are you suggesting we run with the best 22-25 we have atm and they’re good enough for a premiership? I’m not yet 100% convinced and would always be looking to improve the bottom end of our 22. Also I don’t want a repeat of the cliff we jumped off in ‘16 without even winning anything.

If we get close but don’t win it do you think no changes should be made to preserve stability? It is a tough question.

It made me chuckle this week theGav56 you’re very pro Lyon and I’m more towards the con but I agree (I’m pretty sure it was your post) Lyons contract should be decided after the bye next year.
 

theGav56

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Sure valid point. But are you suggesting we run with the best 22-25 we have atm and they’re good enough for a premiership? I’m not yet 100% convinced and would always be looking to improve the bottom end of our 22. Also I don’t want a repeat of the cliff we jumped off in ‘16 without even winning anything.

If we get close but don’t win it do you think no changes should be made to preserve stability? It is a tough question.

It made me chuckle this week theGav56 you’re very pro Lyon and I’m more towards the con but I agree (I’m pretty sure it was your post) Lyons contract should be decided after the bye next year.
I think the club needs to continue this year in development mode, and if an opportunity to introduce a new player come up, take it. But to be realistic that may mean denying another developing player more games, so I'm not sure how productive it is. I really like the stability our defence has now, and even with a bit of change here and there, I am confident they will perform. We need to achieve similar across the rest of the field, and that does mean committing to a group of players in those roles.

Come the second part of the season if we are placed well we should go hard for finals. I don't think they are good enough for a premiership, but it is a really weird year.

Ballantyne; Apart from apocalyptic style injuries to our small forwards, I don't see a scenario where it adds anything to play him. Hope he is useful developing the kids at Peel.

Sandilands; Reality is that if we did end up with finals opportunities, he could be a difference maker, so I'd persist, but I can't see how that gets managed. Lobb is doing ok, and games into Darcy is a great investment.
 

eastfreo75

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Why?
Richmond won in 2017 finishing 8th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.
Western Bulldogs won in 2016 finishing 12th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.

History shows that a good defense is far more important than the ability to attack and score highly when it comes to finals football.
I know it's popular to want Freo to score more, but is it really required or is it an opinion that has been pushed by the AFL and the media.
regardless how you do it, to win a flag you need to be in the 4 top (Dogs exception not the rule). To be top 4 you need to kick 4-6 more goals than the opposition on average.
 
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Sandilands; Reality is that if we did end up with finals opportunities, he could be a difference maker, so I'd persist, but I can't see how that gets managed. Lobb is doing ok, and games into Darcy is a great investment.
Bit of a Clark Keating type appeals to me with Sandi.
 
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Why?
Richmond won in 2017 finishing 8th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.
Western Bulldogs won in 2016 finishing 12th for scoring but 3rd for points Against.

History shows that a good defense is far more important than the ability to attack and score highly when it comes to finals football.
I know it's popular to want Freo to score more, but is it really required or is it an opinion that has been pushed by the AFL and the media.
Sure you can win it (Eagles and Sydney were both 5th as well) but 6 of the premiers over the last decade have been top 2 for attack. We also can never win it like the bulldogs as we can never get 4 home finals so I don’t think it would be a good plan to try follow the path they laid.

4 of the premiers over the last decade were top 2 for points against so there seems to be slightly less importance to win that than points for. In the end you win by kicking a higher score.

It’s really personal preference as I pointed out our attack has shown some weakness under pressure over an extended period so I think we’ll need to improve our attack to top 2 or it gets tough to win it.
 

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yakka man

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I've already been proactive about acknowledging the good things I've seen happening this year and in fact I came out after the Derby (to some ridicule) and said I could see signs things weren't far away from gelling & I could see some good footy ahead.

None of it changes the fact that the things I've criticised Lyon for in the past were valid at the time IMO. He was too defensive, too conservative and he is a control freak lacking imagination. He is process driven which is his strength (he constantly improves the details and trusts the process) but IMO sometimes to be the best I think football requires brilliance, flair, imagination.

But a creative, flexible intelligence, which I try to maintain demands adapting to new information and I'm seeing green shoots everywhere at the moment. I'm enjoying the footy again, which as I've said before, is all I really wanted - to be entertained. Its is only a game after all.

I'm against blind adherence to any fixed point of view. I will criticise when I perceive things can be improved and acknowledge when I think they're being done well.
What I'm not going to be is a blind cheerleader when things are obviously horrible or negative for the sake of it when things are getting better.
I call it as I see it & I admit when I've been wrong.

I don't think I was wrong before, I think things have changed, and I like it. Lyon seems to be capable of learning and adapting which is all I ask for really. Its showing he can be genuinely intelligent and not just a slave to an increasingly obsessive process driven way of working.

We have much sterner tests ahead when we start coming up against Collingwood, Geelong, Richmond when we'll find out more and if Lyon can't take Clarko with the state of the Hawks injuries then we never will.
This is pretty much where I'm at right now. Some good things have happened so far this year - and they bloody well needed to - and I like the intent we have shown in a few of our games. Just want to see consistency.
 

Fred Ziffel

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It's pretty much inevitable in a rebuild where there "will" be supporters baying for the coaches head, regardless if it's fair or not. And also people in general have the habit of overrating lists I think, and imo ours in the last few years wasn't good enough to be competitive, due to factors such as age, depth, spine, etc. and switching coaches wasn't going to change very much, even if I didn't think Lyon was up to it.

It was only really now where the state of our list is in such a good shape where continued failure could be more reasonably attributed to coaching and structure, as we clearly have the cattle to do it now. I actually feel like our rebuild has progressed much faster than I was expecting, aided by some fantastic recruits and development. But if we regress now back to 2017/2018 levels, then I think a change is needed.
Coach Lyon’s insistence for years of having a five man forward line tipped me against him. When you add to it one of the five was Chris Mayne who is on record for saying he would prefer to tackle than kick a goal, that then falls squarely on the coach’s shoulders.
Of course seasons were punctuated with the occasional win and ironically the feature which made those wins stand out was that the coach used a six man structure. I recall in 2016, a nightmare season, two memorable wins one of which was against Brisbane, where the six man forward line got the job done.
Now, I think whether or not you have a star studded front six or not is not as important as refraining from handicapping them by playing one fewer or indeed as is Coach Lyon’s wont, even less than five.
I hated our final campaign of 2018 against Collingwood. At three quarter time that game was Fremantle’s. The game was set up beautifully for an unlikely win; all we needed to do was give ourselves the best chance, but, no that is not how Ross does things.
Coach Lyon went beyond accepted standards of reasonable coaching tactics; he started the fourth quarter with three men in the forward line.
I don’t believe any reasonable argument can be mounted that six, even“C” graded players, isn’t preferable to three.

Of course there may be other reasons why a coach doesn’t give his side the best opportunity but, in the final game against Collingwood, I couldn’t work out what it may have been.
That loss to Collingwood so disheartened me. I was off my club. I’d had enough of this coach’s bullshit.

Then something really weird happened. The rules were changed where Coach Lyon is now forced to have six players inside the forward 50 metre arc. Right, I’m back on board. That will fix him.
Don’t get ahead of ourselves. There’s fine print. The coach can get the six players out of there straight after the centre bounce, and so it was.... come round two, after a very impressive season opener we meet Gold Coast and had what appeared to be an excellent chance to open with two wins. Indeed, at three quarter time we looked to have the game in our hands. Now, I was only watching on television and I am bloody certain I saw eight players in our backline within seconds of a centre bounce down in the last quarter. That is fully compliant with the new rules but for senior coach Lyon , where there’s a will there’s a way. Like you all on here, I was stunned with that loss. Bitter even.

This is going to take a particular intervention to fix. That is what I believe has happened.
I am convinced an individual at Fremantle Football club has approached our senior coach and stated “ I set about procuring the best attainable key forwards I could “ ; “ Now stop this ******* bullshit”.

For now I am back onboard with the coach albeit, with someone in the background issuing directives.
I have always had a high regard for the little fella, just not as a footballer.
As for Ross Lyon, I hope he continues to follow orders.
It matters little who is pulling the strings. If we have six high calibre forwards, they should be played there.
 
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This is going to take a particular intervention to fix. That is what I believe has happened.
I am convinced an individual at Fremantle Football club has approached our senior coach and stated “ I set about procuring the best attainable key forwards I could “ ; “ Now stop this ******* bullshit”.
That's a pretty convenient argument, so essentially all future successes can be attributed else where, whereas all failure attributed directly to Lyon so your precognitions can remain safely unchallenged regardless of outcome. It seemed pretty obvious to me at the time that carrying a hampered Darcy who was not playing his best in what was already a fairly tall and immobile team allowed GC to outrun us at the end. I think we've learned from that and dropped Cox for McCarthey for sake of balance. With so many good talls we want to play, we'll sometimes run into the danger of being tempted to play too many.

And it may even be possible that Lyon is a hack coach where the rule changes and our new forward line simply makes who the coach is inconsequential, we seem to have such a strongly positioned team where failure seems like a very hard thing to do. But it would be disingenuous to make this type of argument and then not also apply the same logic to when Lyon was in charge of a fairly uncompetitive list in 2018 still young and developing.
 
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This is going to take a particular intervention to fix. That is what I believe has happened.
I am convinced an individual at Fremantle Football club has approached our senior coach and stated “ I set about procuring the best attainable key forwards I could “ ; “ Now stop this ******* bullshit”.
Hmmmm....... well your not wrong there(bolded)
 
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Full credit to Ross and the boys for the win over the Giants. However, all the good work from the win against the Giants can be undone with a poor showing against the Bulldogs.

Ross needs to keep the attacking mindset. Another win with another 100+ points scored will go along way.
 

tants

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According to some, it was Ross who was adamant (and overrode all involved in list management) that we get Hogan. Must have known his potential for playing CHB.
 

theGav56

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Looks to me more like we are playing in the fashion the coach and the club said we are headed when the rebuild started a few seasons ago. The rebuild that focused on players with run, speed, skill and natural footballing instincts. The one where the stated, clear intention was to become a higher scoring side.

But some people think it all happened two weeks ago, apparently.
 
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Looks to me more like we are playing in the fashion the coach and the club said we are headed when the rebuild started a few seasons ago. The rebuild that focused on players with run, speed, skill and natural footballing instincts. The one where the stated, clear intention was to become a higher scoring side.

But some people think it all happened two weeks ago, apparently.
Please, I am a fan of your posting but you are off in some sort of parallel world on this topic. He played Danyle ******* Pearce in round 1 2018. The rebuilding narrative is more twisted than a neurotic pretzel in this thread.
 

theGav56

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Please, I am a fan of your posting but you are off in some sort of parallel world on this topic. He played Danyle ******* Pearce in round 1 2018. The rebuilding narrative is more twisted than a neurotic pretzel in this thread.
Breaking news; Lyon doesn't debut first year players in round 1. I don't like it either, but, in the very slightly larger picture, it is irrelevant.
 
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