List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Clems Knee]

Nah cut him loose. We have a tendency to hold onto players for a year too long, which is born from the fact players are still getting games despite their best being 2-3 years away.

Do we? De Boer is doing alright. Barlow and Mzungu also found other homes after being cut.

I think we cut sharply last year. This year we will cut sharply again, but how sharp will depend on how many trades we have lined up.
Griffin, Dawson, Ibbotson, Yarran gone. Spurr and D Pearce are still contracted which may save one or more of them. Johnson and Ballantyne I'm not sure about. Balic apparently gone. That's 9 names. I don't think all will go, but more than 5 will.

 

[Yeti]

You can't turn over 15 players in one year. 15 over 2 years is difficult. If you cut 15 players over 2 years you are then left with immature bodies and a heap of players picked very late in the draft. While we have shown that guys in the 50's and 60's can give good value part of the reason why they have developed well (IMO) is because we are able to invest time into each player.

By only bringing in 5-6 draftees each year our development coaches can give them the required time and more importantly, they get to train with guys who have been in the system for 5+ years and know how to get through pre-seasons. Look at what happened to Melbourne who cut all their older players to "play the youth".

Rebuilds take time and patience to do properly. Even Suban has done a job for us this year who is clearly not going to be around for our next tilt but I wouldn't be adverse to giving him another year on the list. Barlow was a victim of circumstance he was being forced out as we have an abundance of inside mids and the young guys needed to be given time. De Boer and Mzungu were out of contract at the wrong time, if they were in contract and Suban and D.Pearce were OOC they would still be on the list and Suban and Pearce would be out the door.

 

[Silent Alarm]

But I thought Freo's drafting was so good it doesn't matter how late someone is picked?

Also my whole argument is saying we should have made more cuts in 2014-2017, as opposed to doing it wholesale in 2016 and 2017. I mean seriously, Hawthorn cut guys who played well in Grand Finals and we are still umm-ing and arr-ing. Sandilands staying around for another year is another example of keeping Pearce for speed or DeBoer for depth. The only positive if we keep Sandi for the development of Darcy.

But then again the club should have had someone a little younger rather than hold onto three injury prone and inconsistent (or plain shit in Zac Clarke's case) ruckman for so long... now there's no stagger plan. The same for our forwards. We would have done worse than to recruit Schulz a few years back or Petrie for this season.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Yeti]

But I thought Freo's drafting was so good it doesn't matter how late someone is picked?

Also my whole argument is saying we should have made more cuts in 2014-2017, as opposed to doing it wholesale in 2016 and 2017. I mean seriously, Hawthorn cut guys who played well in Grand Finals and we are still umm-ing and arr-ing. Sandilands staying around for another year is another example of keeping Pearce for speed or DeBoer for depth. The only positive if we keep Sandi for the development of Darcy.

But then again the club should have had someone a little younger rather than hold onto three injury prone and inconsistent (or plain shit in Zac Clarke's case) ruckman for so long... now there's no stagger plan. The same for our forwards. We would have done worse than to recruit Schulz a few years back or Petrie for this season.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Drafting is an imperfect science. Getting your draft picks right is only half the battle. You still need to develop them which is why I said cutting deep would not be the quickest way of rebuilding. If anything it would ****** the development of the incoming players (as per my previous point).

I can understand the point that we could have made more cuts in 2014-2015 than we did but let's look at who we cut in 2014/2015:

2014
Kepler Bradley (retired)
Scott Gumbleton (retired)
Josh Simpson (delisted).
Tanner Smith (delisted)
Sam Menegola (ROOKIE - delisted)
Michael Wood (ROOKIE - delisted)

2015
Ryan Crowley (delisted)
Joshua Deluca-Cardillo (delisted)
Paul Duffield (retired)
Max Duffy (delisted)
Luke McPharlin (retired)
Anthony Morabito (delisted)
Colin Sylvia (delisted)
Jacob Ballard (ROOKIE -delisted)
Craig Moller (ROOKIE - delisted)
Thomas Vandeleur (ROOKIE - delisted)

So in 2014 we only delisted 3 players. I believe they only delisted 3 players as the year before we had made the Grand Final and in 2014 we finished in the top 4 at the end of the season. They clearly believed they were still a shot at a premiership. It became evident in the 2015 season that the list would need to be turned over which led to 7 list changes in 2015. How many would be appropriate? I think 7 is about right, 9 is probably stretching our development resources a bit too much.

Your point about the ruckmen is fair but I would guess the club's medical staff thought they could get Zarke fit, they can't so he will be cut now. Griffin is good depth and let's be honest, if we got to the point where we needed a ruckman the club would pull one from the VFL / WAFL pretty easily as shown by other clubs. Or they would pick up a delisted spud or 2 like West Coast while they develop our next generation of Ruckmen in Darcy.

The forwards one is tough. Getting established players over is so hard. We have been connected with every KPF for 7 years and haven't landed any of them but Gumbleton (Kepler?) who was a shot in the dark and a low risk kind of gamble. In the time that Ross Lyon has been with us we have not drafted a true KPF (Apeness?) as we have not had the draft picks to do so.

Now that we are rebuilding and I HOPE that we hold onto 5 and can snaffle a KPF in this years draft. Ross Lyon has had teams with guys like Reiwoldt and Pavlich so it will be interesting to see how we go.

 

[Docker82]

I actually somewhat agree with Silent Alarm. Some of our more average players were given two years, some even three when we should've offered one. Hawthorn didn't offer similar players any more and got picks for them. Outside of last year's trade period and the ridiculous Buddy deal no one would've dreamed of matching no player they lost over the period to another club is much good. Most spudded it up for 2-3 years then got themselves delisted. Maybe if we'd offered De Boer, Silvagni, Mzungu etc they could've done the same instead of doing it at freo for a similar period and/or rotting at Peel until their contracts end. If we got a pick out of them it would've been a bonus and would've helped turn over a few more in that period. May not have helped change our current situation but probably should've been done.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[go_the_dockers]

But I thought Freo's drafting was so good it doesn't matter how late someone is picked?

Also my whole argument is saying we should have made more cuts in 2014-2017, as opposed to doing it wholesale in 2016 and 2017. I mean seriously, Hawthorn cut guys who played well in Grand Finals and we are still umm-ing and arr-ing. Sandilands staying around for another year is another example of keeping Pearce for speed or DeBoer for depth. The only positive if we keep Sandi for the development of Darcy.

But then again the club should have had someone a little younger rather than hold onto three injury prone and inconsistent (or plain shit in Zac Clarke's case) ruckman for so long... now there's no stagger plan. The same for our forwards. We would have done worse than to recruit Schulz a few years back or Petrie for this season.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

Pearce was locked in the 22 between 2013 and 2015, we did make a mistake giving him 2 more years but that may have been on minimum cash.

Griffin is a good example of someone who should have been cut years ago. He has been serviceable, but other players could have done the job. Ideally you want to be removing 5 players from your list every year. If you don't do this eventually you will have to do 9 or 10.

When you have a strong list, by continue to turn it over you keep your list fresh, maybe find another A or B grader and hopefully get draft picks back.

 

[Yeti]

I actually somewhat agree with Silent Alarm. Some of our more average players were given two years, some even three when we should've offered one. Hawthorn didn't offer similar players any more and got picks for them. Outside of last year's trade period and the ridiculous Buddy deal no one would've dreamed of matching no player they lost over the period to another club is much good. Most spudded it up for 2-3 years then got themselves delisted. Maybe if we'd offered De Boer, Silvagni, Mzungu etc they could've done the same instead of doing it at freo for a similar period and/or rotting at Peel until their contracts end. If we got a pick out of them it would've been a bonus and would've helped turn over a few more in that period. May not have helped change our current situation but probably should've been done.


On iPad using BigFooty.com mobile app

It is a fair point but as we are based in WA, does our club need to build a larger loyalty factor by showing loyalty to these types of players to show young players coming through that it is worth staying the course while they are not getting games?

I know that in the professional era clubs have to be cut throat to be successful (part of why getting Lyon was a turning point for us) but I think we underestimate the difficulties we face being based in WA.

If we look at the players Hawthorn lost apart from Buddy who did they lose and where did they go?
Matt Suckling - Left for more opportunity, stayed in Melbourne so it was probable worth the extra 50K-100K a year - 2015
Jed Anderson - Left for more opportunity, stayed in Melbourne so it was probable worth the extra 50K-100K a year - 2015
Kyle Cheney - Unsure of curcumstances

I don't have the time to go over more but who else did they move on and did they get overs for it? The other thing to consider is that while they offloaded spuds they also brought in guys like Brian Lake, James Frawley, Jack Gunston etc.

Part of this was because of recent premiership success (08) we went HARD at Frawley. Was staying influenced by the fact he didn't have to move interstate? Gunston went home. How many guns go home after 2 years? We have gotten lucky last year with Hamling and McCarthy but Hawthorn were able to bring in a lot of highly rated guys because of where they are.

 

[Docker82]

It is a fair point but as we are based in WA, does our club need to build a larger loyalty factor by showing loyalty to these types of players to show young players coming through that it is worth staying the course while they are not getting games?

I know that in the professional era clubs have to be cut throat to be successful (part of why getting Lyon was a turning point for us) but I think we underestimate the difficulties we face being based in WA.

If we look at the players Hawthorn lost apart from Buddy who did they lose and where did they go?
Matt Suckling - Left for more opportunity, stayed in Melbourne so it was probable worth the extra 50K-100K a year - 2015
Jed Anderson - Left for more opportunity, stayed in Melbourne so it was probable worth the extra 50K-100K a year - 2015
Kyle Cheney - Unsure of curcumstances

I don't have the time to go over more but who else did they move on and did they get overs for it? The other thing to consider is that while they offloaded spuds they also brought in guys like Brian Lake, James Frawley, Jack Gunston etc.

Part of this was because of recent premiership success (08) we went HARD at Frawley. Was staying influenced by the fact he didn't have to move interstate? Gunston went home. How many guns go home after 2 years? We have gotten lucky last year with Hamling and McCarthy but Hawthorn were able to bring in a lot of highly rated guys because of where they are.

Hallahan, Gilham, Savage, Lowden, Lisle.

Ellis and Young both left as free agents.

Only two of these guys stayed in Victoria.

Fringe players will often just take the best offer to prolong their career and/or take the option that maximises their chance of staying on a list the longest. Very different to freo trying to get James Frawley and Travis Cloke, who at the time would've walked into any AFL side, to pack their bags and move across the Nullarbor.

The point isn't necessarily about losing players for picks either - it's about them rotting on our list for 1-2 years longer than they should've because of a contract which was too long. I'm sure third round picks would've come for one or two of them but let's be honest having De Boer, Mzungu, C.Pearce, Silvagni and Hannath in 2016 was a waste. One or two of them shouldn't have been here whether it was through delisting or a trade to another side.

 

[Yeti]

Hallahan, Gilham, Savage, Lowden, Lisle.

Ellis and Young both left as free agents.

Only two of these guys stayed in Victoria.

Fringe players will often just take the best offer to prolong their career and/or take the option that maximises their chance of staying on a list the longest. Very different to freo trying to get James Frawley and Travis Cloke who at the time would've walked into any AFL some to pack their bags and move across the Nullarbor.

My point about Hawthorn getting in guys like Frawley, Lake, Gunston was more about how expendable fringe players then become to a club like Hawthorn. They brought in both Tom Mitchell and Jaeger O'Meara both highly touted midfielders this year. If they weren't able to bring them in the they would not have turfed Sam Mitchell and Jordan Lewis.

Hallahan played 6 games across 4 seasons at Hawthorn and netted them pick 47 & 49
Gilham played 13 games across his last 2 seasons with Hawthorn sending picks 28 and 65 to GWS in return for picks 29 and 68, along with Northern Territory zone selection Jed Anderson.
Savage played 57 games across 4 years before being traded to St Kilda with Pick 17 for ruckman Ben McEvoy.
Lowden played 1 game across 6 seasons before being traded for peanuts to Adelaide (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-16/kyle-cheney-luke-lowden-move-to-crows)
Lisle played 5 games across 3 seasons before being traded for pick 29. (2012)

I was responding in particular to this statement:

I mean seriously, Hawthorn cut guys who played well in Grand Finals and we are still umm-ing and arr-ing.

 

[Docker82]

My point about Hawthorn getting in guys like Frawley, Lake, Gunston was more about how expendable fringe players then become to a club like Hawthorn. They brought in both Tom Mitchell and Jaeger O'Meara both highly touted midfielders this year. If they weren't able to bring them in the they would not have turfed Sam Mitchell and Jordan Lewis.

Hallahan played 6 games across 4 seasons at Hawthorn and netted them pick 47 & 49
Gilham played 13 games across his last 2 seasons with Hawthorn sending picks 28 and 65 to GWS in return for picks 29 and 68, along with Northern Territory zone selection Jed Anderson.
Savage played 57 games across 4 years before being traded to St Kilda with Pick 17 for ruckman Ben McEvoy.
Lowden played 1 game across 6 seasons before being traded for peanuts to Adelaide (http://www.afl.com.au/news/2014-10-16/kyle-cheney-luke-lowden-move-to-crows)
Lisle played 5 games across 3 seasons before being traded for pick 29. (2012)

I was responding in particular to this statement:

Fair enough. The players I mentioned certainly were never gun players.

I'm not sure the trading away of spuds has ever really helped Hawthorn tbh - it's more that us not doing it has hindered Freo. Both clubs imo have still ended up in a reasonably similar situation.

 

[ydraw]

In the time that Ross Lyon has been with us we have not drafted a true KPF (Apeness?) as we have not had the draft picks to do so

I dont really agree with this. There have been plenty of KPFs drafted in that time with picks lower than what we had. We haven't tried. The only pick we've used on a KPF in that time was Apeness, and taken Taberner as a rookie. The other talls we have drafted have all been primarily defenders or ruckmen. We just haven't been willing to roll the dice. All our lower speculative picks have been used on mids.

 

[Yeti]

I dont really agree with this. There have been plenty of KPFs drafted in that time with picks lower than what we had. We haven't tried. The only pick we've used on a KPF in that time was Apeness, and taken Taberner as a rookie. The other talls we have drafted have all been primarily defenders or ruckmen. We just haven't been willing to roll the dice. All our lower speculative picks have been used on mids.

Ben Brown is the standout KPF who we could have taken. He was taken in the same draft as Apeness, the club clearly rated Apeness ahead of him and Brown had been passed over numerous times in the preceding years by ALL clubs.

Can you give me some other examples of this?

 

[theGav56]

Base ruckmen are pretty easy to get really. You don't need mega-planning for that position, and we have had some young fellas in development in that position in the past few years, and currently have Apeness and Strnadica. Pretty simple recruiting task to find someone to come in and be position depth for us next season if we need. Much prefer keeping Sandilands and developing the three young guys we already have.

 

[ydraw]

Ben Brown is the standout KPF who we could have taken. He was taken in the same draft as Apeness, the club clearly rated Apeness ahead of him and Brown had been passed over numerous times in the preceding years by ALL clubs.

Can you give me some other examples of this?

Josh Jenkins, Jeremy McGovern, Tim O Brien, Tim Membrey, Callum Sinclair,, Ben Brown, James Sicily, Mitch McGovern are a few examples of forwards who went late in the draft or as rookies (Jenkins and McGovern went in 2011 Rookie Draft so not really under Ross' guidance but the fault here lies with the recruiting team as a whole, not just Ross). There are probably a few more in the more recent years who are still to make an impact.

The annoying thing is really that despite having known for many years that we were in desperate need of a key forward to assist/replace Pavlich, we made basically no effort to draft one in that time. All of our late picks were used on defenders and mids with the exception of Taberner.

There are probably plenty of examples that turned out to be shit but as the saying goes, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take. If other teams are willing to use late picks on speculative key forwards why aren't we?

 

[Yeti]

Josh Jenkins, Jeremy McGovern, Tim O Brien, Tim Membrey, Callum Sinclair,, Ben Brown, James Sicily, Mitch McGovern are a few examples of forwards who went late in the draft or as rookies (Jenkins and McGovern went in 2011 Rookie Draft so not really under Ross' guidance but the fault here lies with the recruiting team as a whole, not just Ross). There are probably a few more in the more recent years who are still to make an impact.

The annoying thing is really that despite having known for many years that we were in desperate need of a key forward to assist/replace Pavlich, we made basically no effort to draft one in the time. All of our late picks were used on defenders and mids with the exception of Taberner.

Josh Jenkins - 2010, before Ross Lyon (you recognize)
Jeremy McGovern - 2011 Rookie Draft, before Ross Lyon (you recognize)
Tim Obrien - pick 28 in the 2012 Draft, we picked Josh Simpson @ 17 before him. After him we picked Tanner Smith with pick 36 as our next pick.
Tim Membrey - 188cm, not a KPF*
Callum Sinclair - 12th pick in the 2013 Rookie Draft, as a 23 year old.
Ben Brown - We drafted Apeness before him as our KPF
James Sicily - 186cm, not a KPF*
Mitch McGovern - 191cm, not a KPF*
* I am not just using height as an indicator of being a KPF but also how they are used in their side

Ok, so in my eyes even if we had of picked up ALL of those players the only one who has made any impact as the number 1 KPF that we are crying out for is Ben Brown. And as I have said we picked Apeness IMO as that KPF. We can't blame the recruiters for his injury problems or Ross. As Morabito would attest, all the talent in the world means nothing when your body won't do what it needs to.

So going back to your original response:

I dont really agree with this. There have been plenty of KPFs drafted in that time with picks lower than what we had. We haven't tried. The only pick we've used on a KPF in that time was Apeness, and taken Taberner as a rookie. The other talls we have drafted have all been primarily defenders or ruckmen. We just haven't been willing to roll the dice. All our lower speculative picks have been used on mids.

I don't believe you have shown that there have been plenty of KPF picked when we have had picks available. Especially when you consider the earlier point about Ross Lyon and even more so in a discussion thread about Ross Lyon's tenure as coach.

If we had the picks to access someone like a Peter Wright or a Jesse Hogan and we had not I would be banging on about it like there was no tomorrow. But KPF go for a premium pick which we have not had OR they go as a RFA / FA / Trade request which as we are based in the West we are up against it to convince them (Buddy / Cloke / Boyd / Clark ha!)

 

[ydraw]

I don't believe you have shown that there have been plenty of KPF picked when we have had picks available. Especially when you consider the earlier point about Ross Lyon and even more so in a discussion thread about Ross Lyon's tenure as coach.

If we had the picks to access someone like a Peter Wright or a Jesse Hogan and we had not I would be banging on about it like there was no tomorrow. But KPF go for a premium pick which we have not had OR they go as a RFA / FA / Trade request which as we are based in the West we are up against it to convince them (Buddy / Cloke / Boyd / Clark ha!)

Interestingly enough Ben Brown was rated around pick 60 in his draft year and many draft experts expected us to take him with our 3rd pick (pick 58). But North Melbourne pounced at pick 47 and we took Brady Grey instead.

But Alex Pearce who we took with pick 37 wasn't highly rated either, in fact he wasn't tipped to go inside the top 70. We took a swing on a long shot athlete who didn't really have a set position at the time instead of a long shot key forward. Not saying it was a bad decision or anything, but I guess it shows our mindset over the last decade or so of drafting.

What I'm saying is that we haven't even had a failed attempt to draft a key forward in that time. Where have been our long shot speculative key forward picks that didn't work out? The only late pick we've ever spent on a Key Forward in the last 7 years was Taberner, who has at least turned out good enough to play 50 odd games.

You'd think that a team as badly in need as a key forward as we have been might have taken a few more shots, but we simply haven't. We've always tried to rely on trading one in instead of drafting one.

 

[ydraw]

Josh Jenkins - 2010, before Ross Lyon (you recognize)
Jeremy McGovern - 2011 Rookie Draft, before Ross Lyon (you recognize)
Tim Obrien - pick 28 in the 2012 Draft, we picked Josh Simpson @ 17 before him. After him we picked Tanner Smith with pick 36 as our next pick.
Tim Membrey - 188cm, not a KPF*

You are certainly wrong about Membrey I'll give you a pass on McGovern. Membrey is a key forward, he was drafted as a key forward by Sydney (his debut game was replacing Buddy who was injured) and plays that role at St Kila (leading goalkicker last year and tied with Bruce so far this year). He may be slightly undersized for that role, but it's the role he's always played.

Tanner Smith was considered a defender when we drafted him not a forward. He did slide a bit which is why we probably took him at 36.

 

[Yeti]

Interestingly enough Ben Brown was rated around pick 60 in his draft year and many draft experts expected us to take him with our 3rd pick (pick 58). But North Melbourne pounced at pick 47 and we took Brady Grey instead.

But Alex Pearce who we took with pick 37 wasn't highly rated either, in fact he wasn't tipped to go inside the top 70. We took a swing on a long shot athlete who didn't really have a set position at the time instead of a long shot key forward. Not saying it was a bad decision or anything, but I guess it shows our mindset over the last decade or so of drafting.

What I'm saying is that we haven't even had a failed attempt to draft a key forward in that time. Where have been our long shot speculative key forward picks that didn't work out? The only late pick we've ever spent on a Key Forward in the last 7 years was Taberner, who has at least turned out good enough to play 50 odd games.

You'd think that a team as badly in need as a key forward as we have been might have taken a few more shots, but we simply haven't. We've always tried to rely on trading one in instead of drafting one.

Looking at the list of KPF that were available maybe our recruiters believe that if ta KPF isn't rated in the top 10 the chances of success are very slim compared to a mid or KPD.

As for KPF drafted with speculative picks:
Matt Taberner - Covered
Matt Uebergang - http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-09-22/draft-prospect-matthew-uebergang
Sean Hurley (maybe reaching a bit there) - http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/player-profile/sean-hurley
Scott Gumbleton - Pick 55
Alex Howson - http://www.fremantlefc.com.au/player-profile/alex-howson

Then this year we brought in McCarthy and Kersten who I would argue are more 2nd / 3rd forwards than a true KPF (similar to the Mitch McGovern example you referenced earlier) along with Brennan Cox and Luke Strnadica (more of a ruckman).

So since Ross Lyon came to the club we have used speculative picks on 5 players who could play KPF. And he had his first draft with us in 2012. So in the 4 years that I took stats from we have attempted 5 different blokes while we still had Pavlich on our list as well.

I have said it before, I think Apeness can be our Gorilla (is that racist?) key forward but we need to get his body right. Ideally I would like us to use pick 5 on a KPF this year as well.

You are certainly wrong about Membrey I'll give you a pass on McGovern. Membrey is a key forward, he was drafted as a key forward by Sydney (his debut game was replacing Buddy who was injured) and plays that role at St Kila (leading goalkicker last year and tied with Bruce so far this year). He may be slightly undersized for that role, but it's the role he's always played.

Tanner Smith was considered a defender when we drafted him not a forward. He did slide a bit which is why we probably took him at 36.

I find it fasinating that you are so black and white. "You are certainly wrong about Membrey".

St Kilda even list him as a High Half Forward: http://www.saints.com.au/player-profile/tim-membrey

Last round he was listed as a forward pocket: http://www.afl.com.au/match-centre/2017/20/stk-v-wce

Josh Bruce as their Full Forward, Nick Reiwoldt as their CHF. He is 188cm, he is not a full forward.

Sydney even lists him as a MEDIUM SIZED FORWARD: http://www.sydneyswans.com.au/player-profile/tim-membrey

 

[ydraw]

I have said it before, I think Apeness can be our Gorilla (is that racist?) key forward but we need to get his body right. Ideally I would like us to use pick 5 on a KPF this year as well.

I hope Apeness can do that too but to be perfectly honest he hasn't really shown much in the few games he has played. He also is not a very good kick.

 

[Steinfreo]

I hope Apeness can do that too but to be perfectly honest he hasn't really shown much in the few games he has played. He also is not a very good kick.

Disagree he looked totally capable at AFL level in his few games.

 

[Kram]

Apeness looked like a decent player in the Peel games that I watched, don't see why he couldn't be at a solid AFL footballer if he gets the body right. Kicking was also generally fine.

 

[ydraw]

Disagree he looked totally capable at AFL level in his few games.

He's barely touched the ball in his AFL career. Looks a very capable mark but not involved in nearly enough contests. Hes only played 6 games though...lots of room for improvement.

 

[Outshined]

His knees are a worry. ACL before being drafted, a PCL this year. Added to his ability to pick up contact injuries like the broken collarbone and it's fair to say we can't hedge too many bets on him.

Definitely has potential though. If we pick up a KPF in this draft/trade period and he gets his body right...we'll be set.

 

[meima]

Apeness looked like a decent player in the Peel games that I watched, don't see why he couldn't be at a solid AFL footballer if he gets the body right. Kicking was also generally fine.

I will described him like how you said about morabinto last year. Even he come back next year his speed and strength will be affected .

 

[scon]

2 PCL's separate knees I think.