List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Rion]

Long post, a void if short attention span

Ross can coach, if you can't acknowledge that dont comment on this thread because you have no idea and I can't be bothered pointing out the obvious reasons why we know he can coach. Moving on...

The biggest problem we have is the sunk cost fallacy. Probably the worst part of Ross is his inability to blood more younger players when contending, or, at least in some way preparing for the next list tilt. He left St Kilda in a hole and we were in an almighty hole in 2016. I dont think it can be exaggerated how bad a spot we were in through 2016 with a really old really passed it list that needed a complete turnover. It won't be till the end of this year that we finally get rid of all the deadwood we had in 2016.

Off the bat, you can't compare us as we stand now to Hawks, Roos, Eagles. They still have extremely experienced, mature lists because they a) handled the transition better and b) have the same or have managed to recruit, players (Hawks and Kangas mainly) through their spine.

This transition is the sunk cost since we can't change what happened and can only affect where we are going. You have to compare our list to others in similar positions being WB, Carlton, GC and Brisbane who are the other teams whose lists were/are being gutted and restarting. St Kilda are in a massive hole since they are shit and quite mature and Melbourne are two years ahead of us in the rebuild. We are comfortably ahead of all bar Brisbane who have been in the shit for 15 years and look the goods.

So for me, I see us ahead of all other sides that have an age profile the same as ours and with exciting young talent that are mostly improving on a rolling average (week to week comparisons are stupid obviously).

I then see clubs that were shit for decades while getting shiney and exciting new coaches and clubs that stuck fat with their coaches being rewarded in Richmond and Collingwood (hell a lot of Eagles supporters wanted to see the back of Simpson) and wonder why we would get rid of a guy who is managing a total list overhaul better all bar Fagan (this would have been debatable before the bye so a month is a long time in football), has taken two teams to a GF and wonder why we would change coaches.

I also think we've improved on last year and have tweaked the gameplan which is why we have had some games where we scored really well and everything clicked but I can understand if people disagree here

Do you think he deserved to stay on after 2016?

Not sure I'm really a fan of measuring ourselves against the other stragglers. None of those have to be contending by 2020 like us.

I mean I see the sunk cost fallacy playing out the other way as well. Do you really think that if we hadn't invested so much into the bloke he'd be seen right now as the perfect man to do the job? I'd hazard a guess that if Ross' contract ended this year he probably wouldn't be getting another one.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

Do you think he deserved to stay on after 2016?

Not sure I'm really a fan of measuring ourselves against the other stragglers. None of those have to be contending by 2020 like us.

I mean I see the sunk cost fallacy playing out the other way as well. Do you really think that if we hadn't invested so much into the bloke he'd be seen right now as the perfect man to do the job? I'd hazard a guess that if Ross' contract ended this year he probably wouldn't be getting another one.

Given we had just had the most successful period of our whole history as a club I'd say yes he did deserve to stay on. How'd St Kilda go with a new coach after being left in the same position we were in 2016? I'd imagine if we had brought in a new coach in 2016 with the state our list was in they would a) being doing worse than Ross b) be fired probably at the end of this year. If you dont think they would be doing worse I only need to point you to literally every club below us who's list are just as young and the fact it was Paul Roos, an experienced coach who finally pulled Melbourne out of the shit after a decade of tripe.

I dont think his current contract and money has anything to do with him staying or going. Club is strong financially and could take the $2m hit to fire him if they thought there was a better option. Seriously, $2-3m is nothing to us in the long run.

 

[malpaso]

What a cop out. This was the same Hawthorn who got absolutely pantsed by Brisbane in Tasmania. So because Clarko figures out our strength, Lyon wasn’t able to at least react with something else?

You just need to listen to the press conference to see he has almost no cl anymore

It's not a cop out, we were poor yesterday. I don't think that was because of a coaching problem. You honestly think we were going to rock up and beat the Hawks after they got belted by Brisbane and put their finals chances in jeopardy? What has changed so much from us beating Port Adelaide a few weeks ago? We are a work in progress at the moment. Thin-skinned fans need not apply..

 

[tonygeeks]

It could all work out well for us if you look at it this way

Lyons doing ok with the rebuild but not showing anything much from a tactical perspective

This is a good thing as long as we don't do something stupid and re-sign him after 2019 because the list is maturing and showing signs of life

1-2 more years of regressive Lyon tactics have the team primed and ready to explode

New coach , new style and boom a few older heads have career best years due to a fresh feel , the younger guys get picked up in the tidal wave and hey presto ....... first flag for the Dockers

Rosco will have delivered on his promise , just 1 year late and he's not around

As long as we don't do something stupid like re- up his contract at the end of 2019 or early 20


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[Leslie_Chow]

It's not a cop out, we were poor yesterday. I don't think that was because of a coaching problem. You honestly think we were going to rock up and beat the Hawks after they got belted by Brisbane and put their finals chances in jeopardy? What has changed so much from us beating Port Adelaide a few weeks ago? We are a work in progress at the moment. Thin-skinned fans need not apply..

We've been poor for a majority of the season. I never thought we would beat the Hawks, but I did expect us to be somewhat competitive. If Hawthorn wanted to, they could have won by 20 goals yesterday. It was a basic training drill and our players legitimately had no idea what to do out there. That speaks to the gameplan and preparation more than anything.

On any other day, with Port not having their 2 best players out of the game by half time, we would have lost that game. We have been a work in progress since the start of 2017, we just haven't progressed at all.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

It amazes me when people can't see the value in keeping some experience out there in such a young football side. Look at Carlton if you want to see what happens. Johnson is way past his best but saying he has been 'cooked' since 2015 is an exaggeration, generally at least been ok imo.

In saying that I think both players should be moved on at the end of the year.

Not arguing against experience in the side, but I don't think we need blokes who are well and truly past it in the 22 in for experience sake.

We have plenty of leaders out there without relying on those two.

There's Sandi, Mundy, Fyfe, Walters, Hill, Hamling Neale all capable of marshalling, directing and leading by example.

Have no issue with them still being on the list this year for guidance off the field, but they are surplus to requirements on it.

Slight exaggeration sure, but Johnson has never been the same since 2015. Serviceable, and the effort can't be faulted, but his back was shot and he has struggled to bend down. Anything at ground level has found him out, every single time.

Watch him the next time it comes near him at ground level, he goes to ground and struggles to get back up again. It's not a new development either.

 

[Snuffaluphagus]

It could all work out well for us if you look at it this way

Lyons doing ok with the rebuild but not showing anything much from a tactical perspective

This is a good thing as long as we don't do something stupid and re-sign him after 2019 because the list is maturing and showing signs of life

1-2 more years of regressive Lyon tactics have the team primed and ready to explode

New coach , new style and boom a few older heads have career best years due to a fresh feel , the younger guys get picked up in the tidal wave and hey presto ....... first flag for the Dockers

Rosco will have delivered on his promise , just 1 year late and he's not around

As long as we don't do something stupid like re- up his contract at the end of 2019 or early 20


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I think this is actually spot the more I think about it. I think most "haters" would agree Ross can coach, you mainly believe the game has gone past him from a tactical stand point. Like I said before, bringing in brand new coaches at the start of a rebuild is disastrous 99 times out of 100.

I think at worst we stand still again next year and it would be the perfect time to bring in a new coach with fresh ideas. They will have the basics from a man who has a proven track record that can be built upon with fresh ideas and a more current methodology. We still have hopefully 3-4 new faces to recruit next year as part of our next push.

Adding to this, I dont see any coaches getting fired at the end of the year. MAYBE Richardson, but he has at least gotten Saints competitive over the last couple of months.

One of Caracella, JL, Ratten, Burns or Mitchell will be available if we want them and if we show no progress I think the list will be primed and in the perfect spot for a new coach if we so want.

 

[poshman]

We've been poor for a majority of the season. I never thought we would beat the Hawks, but I did expect us to be somewhat competitive. If Hawthorn wanted to, they could have won by 20 goals yesterday. It was a basic training drill and our players legitimately had no idea what to do out there. That speaks to the gameplan and preparation more than anything.

On any other day, with Port not having their 2 best players out of the game by half time, we would have lost that game. We have been a work in progress since the start of 2017, we just haven't progressed at all.

And where were our best players? We lost to the Eagles and lost two of our most important players by half time. We were super competitive in that game so I suppose you are giving us massive credit for that performance? Of course not, as they are only second on the ladder and an improved performance against them means nothing as it doesn't fit your narrative.

For the people who say there has been 'no improvement'

Let me pick one of a few standout obvious points:

- Defense: Can you agree it has improved and looks to be a massive strength for the coming 5 + years? Pearce and Wilson added this year (Pearce hasn't played for years so yes he is part of the improvement).

I will go again as this game is easy, when not being emotional and pissed off...

- Forwards: We have gone from a generational champ to nothing. Tabs was flying before injured and let me know your opinion but with he and Cox we now have a strong attack developing. In fact if you had said two years ago we would be in this position now I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Plus we have kicked over 100 points and once close to it with these guys in the team.

And one more for you, just because this is so easy...

- Midfield Depth: You cannot with a straight face tell me that adding Brayshaw and Cerra, with the improvement of Langdon hasn't improved our depth and isn't projecting well for the coming two-three years plus. Our midfield was done by the end of 2015. Mid 2018 even if Langdon only improves marginally from here I think Blakely, Hill and Hill plus these mentioned give us a strong mix.

_________________________________________________________________________-

As to our players 'legitimately' not knowing what to do out there. I would say that there is a difference between knowing and execution. Do you think that Walters knows he should have laid a sheperd for B Hill? I would say he does. Did he execute on that or look for a cheap hand back goal? We kick that and Cox kicks one of his two opportunities in the second and we go to half time even and not 20 behind.

But as you say there has been no, not one tiny bit, not even a morsel of improvement. None across the whole club.

Perspective...

 

[tonygeeks]

I think this is actually spot the more I think about it. I think most "haters" would agree Ross can coach, you mainly believe the game has gone past him from a tactical stand point. Like I said before, bringing in brand new coaches at the start of a rebuild is disastrous 99 times out of 100.

I think at worst we stand still again next year and it would be the perfect time to bring in a new coach with fresh ideas. They will have the basics from a man who has a proven track record that can be built upon with fresh ideas and a more current methodology. We still have hopefully 3-4 new faces to recruit next year as part of our next push.

Adding to this, I dont see any coaches getting fired at the end of the year. MAYBE Richardson, but he has at least gotten Saints competitive over the last couple of months.

One of Caracella, JL, Ratten, Burns or Mitchell will be available if we want them and if we show no progress I think the list will be primed and in the perfect spot for a new coach if we so want.

Yeah there are some good points made on both sides of the Rosco debate , trusting the club to make the right call is hard for a Freo lifer but hopefully this time we pull the right reign
I thought he did a decent job yesterday , not much you can do when you get flogged in the trenches like that besides try to capatilise on the outside but we just kept making unforced error after unforced error
In the end he was trying a few things Ryan and Hamling fwd , both ruckman seemed to be on the ball at one stage. Hopefully he continues with the experimentation for the rest of the year

He's pretty good at dialling up a response after a bad loss , let's hope he can pull one out of his arse for this week


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[Deathly]

"We're on a journey and we're working really hard

I urge you to stick with us, we're going to have some ups and downs but the real enjoyment comes out of jumping on, doing the hard yards and seeing the growth in our young players. That's where the enjoyment comes from.

We see you as apart of our community, the unconditional support we can't do without and we rely on you enormously. Stick with us, we're working incredibly hard.

We see great possibility. We talked to the players about taking the emotional risk to commit yourself and dedicate yourself with no guarantee - because it gives you your best chance but if you don't take that emotional risk you have no chance.

At the minute we're opening ourselves up, we're doing the work and we're starting to see the wheel turn slowly but surely. So get behind us, there will be some great times there will be some tough times.

Thank you, stick with us."

 

[Leslie_Chow]

And where were our best players? We lost to the Eagles and lost two of our most important players by half time. We were super competitive in that game so I suppose you are giving us massive credit for that performance? Of course not, as they are only second on the ladder and an improved performance against them means nothing as it doesn't fit your narrative.

For the people who say there has been 'no improvement'

Let me pick one of a few standout obvious points:

- Defense: Can you agree it has improved and looks to be a massive strength for the coming 5 + years? Pearce and Wilson added this year (Pearce hasn't played for years so yes he is part of the improvement).

I will go again as this game is easy, when not being emotional and pissed off...

- Forwards: We have gone from a generational champ to nothing. Tabs was flying before injured and let me know your opinion but with he and Cox we now have a strong attack developing. In fact if you had said two years ago we would be in this position now I would have taken it in a heartbeat. Plus we have kicked over 100 points and once close to it with these guys in the team.

And one more for you, just because this is so easy...

- Midfield Depth: You cannot with a straight face tell me that adding Brayshaw and Cerra, with the improvement of Langdon hasn't improved our depth and isn't projecting well for the coming two-three years plus. Our midfield was done by the end of 2015. Mid 2018 even if Langdon only improves marginally from here I think Blakely, Hill and Hill plus these mentioned give us a strong mix.

_________________________________________________________________________-

As to our players 'legitimately' not knowing what to do out there. I would say that there is a difference between knowing and execution. Do you think that Walters knows he should have laid a sheperd for B Hill? I would say he does. Did he execute on that or look for a cheap hand back goal? We kick that and Cox kicks one of his two opportunities in the second and we go to half time even and not 20 behind.

But as you say there has been no, not one tiny bit, not even a morsel of improvement. None across the whole club.

Perspective...

This is all good and well and I agree with the defence being our standout area - but it is evidently not showing in results or performance which is what everything needs to be measured by. At this rate, we will be lucky to be fighting for a top 8 position by 2020. Not a premiership which was the goal in this rebuild.

Mundy will be gone in a year or so and has been one of our best this year. S Hill doesn't look like he has too much left in him. Logue looks like a blunder of a top 10 pick and based on evidence, McCarthy is a fail. We could have had Taranto instead.

We are slightly ahead of Carlton, Dogs, Saints & Gold Coast in the rebuild stage, significantly behind Brisbane though. If some supporters are happy with that, then so be it.

Lyon and our awful drafting has put us in this spot, I don't see us getting back to the top anytime soon.

 

[wayToGo_]

What a cop out. This was the same Hawthorn who got absolutely pantsed by Brisbane in Tasmania. So because Clarko figures out our strength, Lyon wasn’t able to at least react with something else?

You just need to listen to the press conference to see he has almost no cl anymore

But you can pick and choose games to make any argument work. Why did Brisbane lose to Adelaide at home in Round 18? They had a B22 that was older and more experienced than the team we used against Adelaide in Round 12 that we won with. And Adelaide's team were older and more experienced when they played us than they were when they played Brisbane. The reality is young teams are inconsistent and Brisbane fans have had to endure far longer than us with our respective rebuilds.

FWIW I also really like the way Brisbane plays but if you don't think they are ahead of us with their rebuild there is something wrong with your maths. Just because they are below us on the ladder does not mean we are older or more experienced or have a better list (we've just won more during our respective rebuilds to date). And this idea that they have focussed solely on building a forward line and that's why they are more attacking is rubbish. They have had some good drafting via a lot of top picks, traded out those without heart (eg Rockliff, Schache), traded in some senior experience (eg Beams, Hodge), and found some gold via their academy (eg Andrews, Hipwood). They've built their list slowly (across the field) over many years and topped it off with some top shelf forwards in McCluggage (pick 3) and Rayner (pick 1) in the past two drafts. They've also managed to generally keep their senior players on the park this season which has meant they have been competitive in most games even though they've only won 4 games.

I'm not saying we shouldn't be exploring other coaches (I'd like to add some quality assistants as well and even start thinking about post Ross) but I think some are being extremely impatient with results. Anyone who has coached or participated in elite sport knows how little differences can have massive impact. You see it every week where a team comes out of nowhere to win and others lose when they really shouldn't have. There are countless variables but one trend you can almost guarantee is young and inexperienced teams will be inconsistent and older and experienced teams more consistently competitive even if their win/loss isn't great.

More than half our B22 will benefit immensely from getting experience pumped into them this year plus getting an extra pre-season into them ahead of next season. Perhaps even more importantly we can finally get some semblance of a spine sorted. In defence, Hamling has been solid throughout but Alex Pearce has run out of gas - understandable and you'd expect his fitness to be better next season. I'm not sure why anyone expects Darcy, or any of our non-Sandi ruck options, to break even against some quality AFL rucks, given they are all either coming out of rehab, being only a 1st or 2nd year, or both! Fyfe is key to that spine as well given his contested marking which we have really struggled with when he's been out. And up forward we've been missing our primary KPF since round 5, and relied on a 19yo to fill that void. Cox, like Pearce, has understandably tired as the season has progressed, and we've struggled without having anyone capable of taking a contested mark in our side the past two games.

I would have liked us to be more competitive against both Essendon and Hawthorn but when you truly compare who they had out on the park and who we did the results are not exactly surprising. That's not to say some of Ross' coaching decisions didn't make me go WTF as well. But we are playing the yoof, we are playing 6 forwards ahead of the ball (most of the time) and we aren't getting destroyed by 100+ points like last year. Nothing to do cartwheels over but should we be expecting miracles? We've still got a few rounds to end the season on a more positive note.

 

[Nothing]

A few of my favourite things:

• We should be better than we are with the experience in our team - checks team age and games played and significantly younger than the opposition.
  
• We are worse than Brisbane - checks ladder 7 wins to 4. When they beat us their average age of their midfield (and ruck) was 29, ours was 23 - if you remove Mundy who spent time forward it drops further.
  
• Ross Lyon isn't playing enough youth - looks at games played by the younger players, players available and the positions they can play in. I realise that MJ, Ballas both didn't play this round. With the youth available being recently returned from injury or rakes.
  
• Ross can't develop youth (we still get that now!)
  
• Ross can't beat Hawks/Clarkson - looks at age of team and ladder position. Yep that result was expected.
  
• We should compare ourselves to the successful clubs - what the ones that are playing older teams with a lot of experience? OK well than we'll bring back DP, Ballas and MJ who all would contribute more each week than a number of the younger players.
• We can't win with this game plan - checks ladder and wonders how we got those 7 wins, we must have really beaten up on poor teams.
  
• It's the same game plan - yet we get scored against when players turn the ball over kicking into the corridor.
  
• We need a new/better coach - I'd be happy to add a better coach, if you could name one available. a new coach will not always be better though.

We're about where I expected. I hope we can get 2 more wins and have no more significant injuries.

 

[blue shark]

Maybe Ross should go watch some soccer games obviously Clarkson does. Hawks win by gaining metre by metre keeping possession, switching until close enough to goal.
Zoning against them, or guarding grass has never worked because they are so well drilled as to only blaze away as a
last resort.
Cats vs Hawks games are usually epic games because Scott let's his stars go head to head, this is the guy who should of
replaced Harvey.
Look at his record against Clarkson, then Ross. Caracalla has been assistant to Scott and Hardwick, that should be our
Succession plan.

 

[One_Wing]

Maybe Ross should go watch some soccer games obviously Clarkson does. Hawks win by gaining metre by metre keeping possession, switching until close enough to goal.
Zoning against them, or guarding grass has never worked because they are so well drilled as to only blaze away as a
last resort.
Cats vs Hawks games are usually epic games because Scott let's his stars go head to head, this is the guy who should of
replaced Harvey.
Look at his record against Clarkson, then Ross. Caracalla has been assistant to Scott and Hardwick, that should be our
Succession plan.

I mean its easy to say that is what the players should do. But younger players don't always have the skills to execute such a plan at AFL level. Even guys like Cerra who are classy as hell shank kicks under a little bit of pressure. That gets ironed out with more experience but as it stands a well structured game plan is difficult for young teams to execute. They often get dragged out of position, run out of legs and rush decisions.

 

[dockerfemme]

A few of my favourite things:

• We should be better than we are with the experience in our team - checks team age and games played and significantly younger than the opposition.
  
• We are worse than Brisbane - checks ladder 7 wins to 4. When they beat us their average age of their midfield (and ruck) was 29, ours was 23 - if you remove Mundy who spent time forward it drops further.
  
• Ross Lyon isn't playing enough youth - looks at games played by the younger players, players available and the positions they can play in. I realise that MJ, Ballas both didn't play this round. With the youth available being recently returned from injury or rakes.
  
• Ross can't develop youth (we still get that now!)
  
• Ross can't beat Hawks/Clarkson - looks at age of team and ladder position. Yep that result was expected.
  
• We should compare ourselves to the successful clubs - what the ones that are playing older teams with a lot of experience? OK well than we'll bring back DP, Ballas and MJ who all would contribute more each week than a number of the younger players.
• We can't win with this game plan - checks ladder and wonders how we got those 7 wins, we must have really beaten up on poor teams.
  
• It's the same game plan - yet we get scored against when players turn the ball over kicking into the corridor.
  
• We need a new/better coach - I'd be happy to add a better coach, if you could name one available. a new coach will not always be better though.

We're about where I expected. I hope we can get 2 more wins and have no more significant injuries.

I am interested by your assumption that Ross can develop youth. I feel I have no idea whether he (and the club) can or can't. For each Ed Langdon, there is a Darcy Tucker. I think Ross (and the club) deserve credit for Tabs form at the start of year. I am concerned about the use of Connor on a hbf, and feel we were not getting good value from his strengths. I think it is great that Brennan had (for a while) sorted out his goal kicking. I wish Cam McCarthy was playing better.

I feel one never knows whether the problems in a poor team are player talent, player development or game plan and tactics etc etc.

How do you see it?

 

[TheMcManusNose]

This is all good and well and I agree with the defence being our standout area - but it is evidently not showing in results or performance which is what everything needs to be measured by. At this rate, we will be lucky to be fighting for a top 8 position by 2020. Not a premiership which was the goal in this rebuild.

Mundy will be gone in a year or so and has been one of our best this year. S Hill doesn't look like he has too much left in him. Logue looks like a blunder of a top 10 pick and based on evidence, McCarthy is a fail. We could have had Taranto instead.

We are slightly ahead of Carlton, Dogs, Saints & Gold Coast in the rebuild stage, significantly behind Brisbane though. If some supporters are happy with that, then so be it.

Lyon and our awful drafting has put us in this spot, I don't see us getting back to the top anytime soon.

Taranto went 2. We had pick 3. GWS made an additional trade after acquiring the pick from us. They traded an additional late first rounder for 2 and got some later picks back. We didn't have the same currency.

 

[Nothing]

I am interested by your assumption that Ross can develop youth. I feel I have no idea whether he (and the club) can or can't. For each Ed Langdon, there is a Darcy Tucker. I think Ross (and the club) deserve credit for Tabs form at the start of year. I am concerned about the use of Connor on a hbf, and feel we were not getting good value from his strengths. I think it is great that Brennan had (for a while) sorted out his goal kicking. I wish Cam McCarthy was playing better.

I feel one never knows whether the problems in a poor team and player talent, player development or game plan and tactics etc etc.

How do you see it?

I've been impressed with the development of Connor Blakely, Luke Ryan, Ed Langdon, Alex Pearce, Sean Darcy and the first year players in Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield and to a lesser degree Giro. All are comfortable at AFL level and I can see having regular games fort he next 6-10 years. The disappointing players from a developmental view (IMO) have been Hughes, Apeness (injury being the major issue) and Cam McCarthy. Tucker certainly closer to the second list than the first but fits in with players who seem OK like Dumin, Nyhuis, Logue (injuries aside).

On Connor, I think he has been excellent off half back and think he has been a massive loss for us, one often overlooked by fingernail deep analysis that happens (in the media).

 

[Joao]

I've been impressed with the development of Connor Blakely, Luke Ryan, Ed Langdon, Alex Pearce, Sean Darcy and the first year players in Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield and to a lesser degree Giro. All are comfortable at AFL level and I can see having regular games fort he next 6-10 years. The disappointing players from a developmental view (IMO) have been Hughes, Apeness (injury being the major issue) and Cam McCarthy. Tucker certainly closer to the second list than the first but fits in with players who seem OK like Dumin, Nyhuis, Logue (injuries aside).

On Connor, I think he has been excellent off half back and think he has been a massive loss for us, one often overlooked by fingernail deep analysis that happens (in the media).

Can't lay Cam at Ross' feet. The dude clearly has some sort of problem that affects his application.

 

[Rion]

I've been impressed with the development of Connor Blakely, Luke Ryan, Ed Langdon, Alex Pearce, Sean Darcy and the first year players in Brayshaw, Cerra, Banfield and to a lesser degree Giro. All are comfortable at AFL level and I can see having regular games fort he next 6-10 years. The disappointing players from a developmental view (IMO) have been Hughes, Apeness (injury being the major issue) and Cam McCarthy. Tucker certainly closer to the second list than the first but fits in with players who seem OK like Dumin, Nyhuis, Logue (injuries aside).

On Connor, I think he has been excellent off half back and think he has been a massive loss for us, one often overlooked by fingernail deep analysis that happens (in the media).

Reckon he definitely struggles to develop and accommodate attacking players. I mean it's been 7 years and you have to go back to Walters if you're looking for a genuine success story. Tabs and Cox are tracking pretty well of course but I don't think it should be ignored that for both their main attribute is contested marking.

Helps a lot that if in a perennially disappointing forward line that frequently has no real structure beyond long bombs you're main strength is an ability to mark those long bombs...

 

[poshman]

This is all good and well and I agree with the defence being our standout area - but it is evidently not showing in results or performance which is what everything needs to be measured by. At this rate, we will be lucky to be fighting for a top 8 position by 2020. Not a premiership which was the goal in this rebuild.

Mundy will be gone in a year or so and has been one of our best this year. S Hill doesn't look like he has too much left in him. Logue looks like a blunder of a top 10 pick and based on evidence, McCarthy is a fail. We could have had Taranto instead.

We are slightly ahead of Carlton, Dogs, Saints & Gold Coast in the rebuild stage, significantly behind Brisbane though. If some supporters are happy with that, then so be it.

Lyon and our awful drafting has put us in this spot, I don't see us getting back to the top anytime soon.

You said there had been 'no progress' and I simply pointed out some clear areas of progress.

S Hill will play for another 5 years easily. As for Logue being a 'blunder' that is a worse statement than 'we have made no progress'

How anyone can rate Logue anything other than extremely positively and high potential after his first season is beyond me. He is huge, very fast and showed towards the end of his first season that he could play. Add him to Pearce, Hamling, Ryan, and Wilson and we have some weapons. He showed an ability to stay in the contest, keep his feet and strength that I thought was great for the first year. Wait until we see him after his second full pre-season. We should all be full of hope on him and the trade down that included Cam was a good one at the time.

I don't think we can judge Cam until he plays in a stable forward line with a decent midfield in front of him. He was our leading goal kicker last year and is in obvious need to can some fitness. We judge him over the next 12-18 months. Even if he is not playing then, the trade was a good one to make at the time and that doesn't change based on results. Much like the Bennell deal was a good one at the time.

I am not happy with our position on the ladder, though I thought it was expected and from memory didn't most posters here say we would finish between 12th and 15th? If we have moved ahead of those clubs in our rebuild despite them starting their rebuild two years or more prior we have achieved something. Dare I say progress?

Personally, I don't want us to finish higher than we are now. Pick six is handy and I thought we would finish with pick 4 or 5. GCS and Carlton have been historically poor.

Our awful drafting was from 2011-2013. (And now we could say 15 wasn't good either) Although Neale came during that time. And Apeness - Pearce and Tabener picked in 13 draft. 2012 = Simpson - Tanner and Duffy... Vomit! We effectively got four players out of that time.

Blakely - Langdon - Weller - Tucker - Logue - Cox - Darcy - Brayshaw - Cerra - Banfield - Ryan

Add to that - Hamling - Wilson and Brad Hill (all traded for picks) and I would say we have had a robust three years.

Pretty handy last few drafts don't you think?

Our biggest error was not seeing how shite our foot soldiers were in 2014 and trading them out then. However, even in 2015, I was calling for that and most here were shouting that down. Anyway - to say there has been 'no progress' and Logue is a 'bust' and we aren't getting anywhere is simply false.

 

[go_the_dockers]

Our biggest error was not seeing how shite our foot soldiers were in 2014 and trading them out then. However, even in 2015, I was calling for that and most here were shouting that down. Anyway - to say there has been 'no progress' and Logue is a 'bust' and we aren't getting anywhere is simply false.

If Fyfe did not get injured we were probably in a GF. Trading them out would have cost us that chance.

 

[poshman]

If Fyfe did not get injured we were probably in a GF. Trading them out would have cost us that chance.

Also a fair assertion - we had a very successful period from 2012 - 2015. And I think we are reloading quite quickly.

 

[Purpletown]

Tabs and Cox are tracking pretty well of course but I don't think it should be ignored that for both their main attribute is contested marking.

Helps a lot that if in a perennially disappointing forward line that frequently has no real structure beyond long bombs you're main strength is an ability to mark those long bombs...

Jeremy McGovern will set a new record for intercept marks this weekend unless we do something different than our "Bomb it Long" MO for the past 3 years.

 

[TheInjuryFactory]

"We're on a journey and we're working really hard

I urge you to stick with us, we're going to have some ups and downs but the real enjoyment comes out of jumping on, doing the hard yards and seeing the growth in our young players. That's where the enjoyment comes from.

We see you as apart of our community, the unconditional support we can't do without and we rely on you enormously. Stick with us, we're working incredibly hard.

We see great possibility. We talked to the players about taking the emotional risk to commit yourself and dedicate yourself with no guarantee - because it gives you your best chance but if you don't take that emotional risk you have no chance.

At the minute we're opening ourselves up, we're doing the work and we're starting to see the wheel turn slowly but surely. So get behind us, there will be some great times there will be some tough times.

Thank you, stick with us."

Sorry mate, but the only thing you are highlighting here is your naivety.