List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Dirty_banchez]

The big question for me is which players are improving, so that we move up the ladder?

I just don't see it. I'm losing hope. Red was right: Hope is a dangerous thing.

 

[Nodgey]

This board has really turned to shit off of one loss. I wish we saw this amount of necro-bumping / necro-quoting and reemergence of old and new accounts when we were winning.

That was a pretty demoralising loss though this week. I fear a Ross Lyon coached team will never win a flag while Clarkson remains in the game.

 

[freo1997]

The big question for me is which players are improving, so that we move up the ladder?

I just don't see it. I'm losing hope. Red was right: Hope is a dangerous thing.

I could see why some of the boys took him for snobby. He had a quiet way about him, a walk and a talk that just wasn't normal around here. He strolled, like a man in a park without a care or a worry in the world, like he had on an invisible coat that would shield him from this place. Yeah, I think it would be fair to say... I liked Dirty banchez from the start.

 

[Deathly]

That was a pretty demoralising loss though this week.

I wasn't demoralized and I don't think the club is either. It's a pretty poor example of a game for the impatient and blind crew on here to use in support of all their false and narrow arguments regarding the rebuild and the coach.

 

[Son of a Wizard]

Easy... we get rid of Clarkson.


On iPhone using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Square Peg]

This board has really turned to shit off of one loss. I wish we saw this amount of necro-bumping / necro-quoting and reemergence of old and new accounts when we were winning.

I guess you always have the option of leaving at any point if you can't handle it. Just a thought

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

 

[poshman]

Best post I’ve read on Big Footy. Could not agree more.

Thanks mate - people seem to have lost all perspective.

 

[Deathly]

I guess you always have the option of leaving at any point if you can't handle it. Just a thought

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

I can handle it just fine. Watching people chase their tails and seeing the mediocrity state of their life seep into their posting is a beautiful sight. It's great stuff for a laugh. Keep it up, the impasse dedication is greatly appreciated.

 

[its free real estate]

Anyone arguing for patience after three seasons of missing finals is a fool.

What's the timeline for making finals again? Will people still be saying 'be patient' in 2021?

 

[Square Peg]

I can handle it just fine. Watching people chase their tails and seeing the mediocrity state of their life seep into their posting is a beautiful sight. It's great stuff for a laugh. Keep it up, the impasse dedication is greatly appreciated.

mediocre would be the big word you are trying to use in that post, not mediocrity

Sent from my TA-1024 using Tapatalk

 

[Nothing]

Not a troll.

Saying 'rebuild started in 2017' means 2016 was what exactly? Do we simply accept a four win season as par for the course? How did the club screw up so badly? How did it misread the list to the point where we lost 11 games in a row?

We're tracking for 20 wins over three seasons, another season or two like this and it's the worst stretch in our history. If this is 'sustained success' then so were the Harvey and Connolly eras.

No finals until 2020 is simply shit house: where is the accountability for that? Who is taking ownership of this enormous blunder?

Anyone arguing for patience after three seasons of missing finals is a fool.

What's the timeline for making finals again? Will people still be saying 'be patient' in 2021?

You have conflated from 2018 to no finals until 2020 to no finals until 2021. In another thread you're even claiming you don't want Lyon gone - it's Bond and Lloyd.

I reckon you just like the fleeting amounts of attention you know you can gain after a Freo loss.

 

[jedi mind tricks]

You have conflated from 2018 to no finals until 2020 to no finals until 2021. In another thread you're even claiming you don't want Lyon gone - it's Bond and Lloyd.

I reckon you just like the fleeting amounts of attention you know you can gain after a Freo loss.

Surprise surprise he arrives this week to try stick a few knives in and mop up some attention.

 

[Schauermann]

This board has really turned to shit off of one loss.

Actually we have 11 of them. And are no change to make finals. So actually the whole season is wasted again.

 

[mightymouse75]

Winge winge snipe snipe bitch bitch. It's almost as weak as dockerland. Ross will be here next year. So suck it up and support your team.

 

[mightymouse75]

Winge winge snipe snipe bitch bitch. It's almost as weak as dockerland. Ross will be here next year. So suck it up and support your team.

 

[mightymouse75]

Winge winge snipe snipe bitch bitch. It's almost as weak as dockerland. Ross will be here next year. So suck it up and support your team.

 

[PurpleEyes]

Over the years, I've come to realise that the news in the media regarding Fremantle, their players, coaches, performances, etc... is often aligned to a far more negative narrative than what I believe to be true. Reading this thread, it saddens me when I see supposed Freo supporters who repeat many of those same negative narratives.

Here's my understanding of Freo's recent years under Ross Lyon;

In 2015, Freo won the minor premiership. They were eliminated in the Preliminary Final by the eventual three-peat premiers Hawthorn. There was plenty of media talk about how Freo couldn't win the premiership because they did not have enough scoring capabilities. But the only team in 2015 with a defence (ranked by Home and Away points) better than Freo was Hawthorn. The Hawks were also one of the few teams to have an older and more experienced team than Freo.

By the end of 2015, Freo appeared to be under pressure to find a way to overcome the skilled uncontested football game plan that the Hawks had.
Freo recruited assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience.
So in 2016, Freo with a revised game plan, got smashed (largely in scores from turnovers) by the Western Bulldogs in round 1. It was the bulldogs (eventual 2016 premiers) 10th successive win at their home ground (Docklands). Freo were without Sandilands, Johnson, A.Pearce (and promising recruits Harley Bennell and Shane Yarran).
In round 2, Freo again got beaten by Gold Coast at Subi. Statistically, Freo played OK, but again got smashed by costly turnovers and Freo's failure to defend against Gold Coasts run and spread. There appeared to be a move away from getting numbers to and behind the contested ball to now be more offensive to improve Freo's uncontested possession (ie. as Hawthorn do).
Next is the Western derby with Mundy missing and Sandilands getting injured in the 2nd qtr. The Slime win.
Freo then get Norths at the Docklands. Norths are in great form (older and more experienced) and end up winning their first 9 games of 2016. Freo are without Sandilands and Mundy and already trying to find some depth in younger players such as Weller, Langdon, A.Pearce, Taberner, Sheridan & Sutcliffe.
By then end of Round 5 after losing a close game at home to Carlton, with 7 Freo players with 50 games or less, and Fyfe breaking his leg, with no Sandilands, and Mundy, Freo's chances of playing finals in 2016 looks bleak.
I've gone to the effort here to show that sometimes in AFL, things just don't go your way. Can Freo be blamed for some of that? Yep. But there was also a great deal of bad luck happening. By the end of round 16 2016, I read an article which showed Freo had been affected by injury worse than any other AFL team. The article ranked the effect of the injuries by the quality of players lost. Freo had 431 points with Collingwood a distant 2nd worse off with 263 points.

So Freo bite the bullet and start the rebuild at the end of 2016 with aggressive recruiting via the draft and trade.
Fast forward to today and Freo are now consistently fielding a team of players that are currently considerably younger and less experienced than any of the current top 8 teams.

The picture I'm trying to paint is, I'm not so sure it's fair to be blaming Freo or Ross Lyon for the last few years. Unfortunate circumstances have pretty much dictated our recent history. If I look back further to the start of Ross Lyon's tenure (ie. end of 2011), I still struggle to identify any obvious failings. Attempts have been made to net some big fish, but they continue to escape capture. Last weekend, there was just 4 players who were recruited prior to Lyon arriving at Freo (Mundy, S.Hill, Walters and Sutcliffe). The statistics indicate that in 2 or 3 years, if Freo have a decent run with few injuries, then we should get to really see how successful our current rebuild is. Until then, I feel the finger pointing and blame game is based on a narrative heard in the media and not so much supported by recent history.

 

[wayToGo_]

Seen 2010 get mentioned a few times as if it was only our 2nd year of the last rebuild and three years of missing finals being unacceptable...

2005 we finished 10th on the ladder
2006 we finished 3rd - Schofield retired.
2007 we finished 11th - Cook, Longmuir, Parker retired. Walker, Hadrill delisted.
2008 we finished 14th - Bell, Black, MCarr, Farmer, Johnson, McManus, Webster retired. JCarr delisted.
2009 we finished 14th - Solomon retired.
2010 we finished 6th - Haselby, Headland, Thornton retired. Dodd delisted.
2011 we finished 10th - Hayden, Schammer retired.
2012 we finished 7th (in Ross' first year) - Grover retired. McPhee delisted.

IMO our last rebuild started at the end of 2007 (after we fell from 3rd to 11th) when our long serving players started retiring and ended in 2012 after Ross' first season with us. We were out of the finals for 3 years, then snuck into the finals and then fell out again the following year. In those years there were only 16 teams playing, so average was making finals 50% of the time.

2013 we finished 3rd - nobody notable retired or was delisted.
2014 we finished 4th - Bradley, Gumbleton retired.
2015 we finished 1st - McPharlin, Sylvia retired. Crowley delisted.
2016 we finished 16th - Pavlich retired. Barlow, Mzungu, CPearce, de Boer, Silvagni delisted.
2017 we finished 14th - Dawson, Ibbotson retired. Clarke, Suban, Griffin delisted.

So IMO this rebuild started at the end of 2016 (after we fell from 1st to 16th) and Pavlich retired and we delisted a heap of long serving players. There are now 18 teams playing, so average is now making the finals 44.4% of the time.

Last rebuild we went from 14th to 6th in one year but given we stumbled out of the finals the following year it is perhaps a bit misleading. Sandi and Mundy are our only remaining key veterans on our list. Our list should get a lot better quite quickly from now onward. Over half our current B22 will hit the magic 50+ games experience either next year or the year following. We'll start having a demographic far more in line with those in the 8 or just outside. There are a bunch of teams playing old B22s (eg Port, WC, Hawks, Adelaide, Essendon, Geelong etc). All of these teams have a bunch of veterans in key positions that for most will mean they will fall off a cliff when they go (there is always a tipping point) and provide space for us to move up into. Quite a few of them invested heavily in the past two off seasons (via trades/FA) to try and extend their window - IMO it has created an exaggerated and temporary gap in the middle of the ladder between young and old teams. It probably won't be as sudden as our '15 to '16 drop but history suggests it will inevitably happen for most, if not all of these clubs in the coming couple of years.

Assuming we can continue the good trading and drafting we've seen in the past couple of years we can set ourselves up well to make a push. We are probably a long shot to make finals again next year but my expectation is for us to at least continue climbing the ladder (if we don't show improvement then Ross' tenure would be in jeopardy). If we don't make finals in 2020 then the rebuild will have failed and Ross will accept responsibility - and we'll almost certainly get a new coach who should inherit a fairly decent list. Based on timings from last time around, 2022 is the equivalent of 2013 so it's not as if we are padding out the timeline here.

We need to stop reacting so emotionally over an individual loss as if we are the worst team in history (or a win as if it is a sign we are the GOAT) and just accept we are building toward having a balanced list and team that can be consistently competitive. If anyone can go back and find a team playing ~12 players under 50 games experience each week that made the 8 I'd love to know about it. Plenty of the criticism on here is justified but if you provide it in the context of where we are really at, it's far from the doomsday many are making out.

 

[poshman]

Anyone arguing for patience after three seasons of missing finals is a fool.

What's the timeline for making finals again? Will people still be saying 'be patient' in 2021?

Ah so you’ve stopped interacting with my arguments because thorough reasoning doesn’t suit your agenda. Troll.

Go to my last reply to you and let’s continue. I notice that those melting in here are not interacting with reason. Rather they are throwing all the toys out the cot and behaving as though they are intellectually superior. Much like people who use identity politics as a way of not interacting with an argument play the person and refuse to interact with the argument.

I’ll await your reply to my last post. We were beginning to have a decent conversation.

 

[its free real estate]

You have conflated from 2018 to no finals until 2020 to no finals until 2021. In another thread you're even claiming you don't want Lyon gone - it's Bond and Lloyd.

I reckon you just like the fleeting amounts of attention you know you can gain after a Freo loss.

Read the context of the posts I was responding to, tants.

Here's the thing I like about you: you were one of the biggest denialists of what was about to occur in 2015, fervently telling people that the club knew what it was doing. How can you continue to suppose you're the voice of authority when you got things so hopelessly wrong?

 

[MadDocker]

Read the context of the posts I was responding to, tants.

Here's the thing I like about you: you were one of the biggest denialists of what was about to occur in 2015, fervently telling people that the club knew what it was doing. How can you continue to suppose you're the voice of authority when you got things so hopelessly wrong?

How is he wrong? No one is wrong or right at this stage. The predetermined time line to achieve the result hasn't passed. Your hypothetical past scenario that would allegedly be better somehow, or, seeing into the future that the current rebuild didn't work are nothing but your imaginations.

Doesn't look great copping losses like we did on the weekend but you, like everyone else, have next to zero idea of how we are tracking and how far off the mark the club is internally. Just a bunch of armchair experts sprouting off bullshit (me included). Remember fans were calling for Damian Hardwicks head just before they won the GF because he was a rubbish coach that was past it and didn't have the players etc etc.

 

[nurries]

Over the years, I've come to realise that the news in the media regarding Fremantle, their players, coaches, performances, etc... is often aligned to a far more negative narrative than what I believe to be true. Reading this thread, it saddens me when I see supposed Freo supporters who repeat many of those same negative narratives.

Here's my understanding of Freo's recent years under Ross Lyon;

In 2015, Freo won the minor premiership. They were eliminated in the Preliminary Final by the eventual three-peat premiers Hawthorn. There was plenty of media talk about how Freo couldn't win the premiership because they did not have enough scoring capabilities. But the only team in 2015 with a defence (ranked by Home and Away points) better than Freo was Hawthorn. The Hawks were also one of the few teams to have an older and more experienced team than Freo.

By the end of 2015, Freo appeared to be under pressure to find a way to overcome the skilled uncontested football game plan that the Hawks had.
Freo recruited assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience.
So in 2016, Freo with a revised game plan, got smashed (largely in scores from turnovers) by the Western Bulldogs in round 1. It was the bulldogs (eventual 2016 premiers) 10th successive win at their home ground (Docklands). Freo were without Sandilands, Johnson, A.Pearce (and promising recruits Harley Bennell and Shane Yarran).
In round 2, Freo again got beaten by Gold Coast at Subi. Statistically, Freo played OK, but again got smashed by costly turnovers and Freo's failure to defend against Gold Coasts run and spread. There appeared to be a move away from getting numbers to and behind the contested ball to now be more offensive to improve Freo's uncontested possession (ie. as Hawthorn do).
Next is the Western derby with Mundy missing and Sandilands getting injured in the 2nd qtr. The Slime win.
Freo then get Norths at the Docklands. Norths are in great form (older and more experienced) and end up winning their first 9 games of 2016. Freo are without Sandilands and Mundy and already trying to find some depth in younger players such as Weller, Langdon, A.Pearce, Taberner, Sheridan & Sutcliffe.
By then end of Round 5 after losing a close game at home to Carlton, with 7 Freo players with 50 games or less, and Fyfe breaking his leg, with no Sandilands, and Mundy, Freo's chances of playing finals in 2016 looks bleak.
I've gone to the effort here to show that sometimes in AFL, things just don't go your way. Can Freo be blamed for some of that? Yep. But there was also a great deal of bad luck happening. By the end of round 16 2016, I read an article which showed Freo had been affected by injury worse than any other AFL team. The article ranked the effect of the injuries by the quality of players lost. Freo had 431 points with Collingwood a distant 2nd worse off with 263 points.

So Freo bite the bullet and start the rebuild at the end of 2016 with aggressive recruiting via the draft and trade.
Fast forward to today and Freo are now consistently fielding a team of players that are currently considerably younger and less experienced than any of the current top 8 teams.

The picture I'm trying to paint is, I'm not so sure it's fair to be blaming Freo or Ross Lyon for the last few years. Unfortunate circumstances have pretty much dictated our recent history. If I look back further to the start of Ross Lyon's tenure (ie. end of 2011), I still struggle to identify any obvious failings. Attempts have been made to net some big fish, but they continue to escape capture. Last weekend, there was just 4 players who were recruited prior to Lyon arriving at Freo (Mundy, S.Hill, Walters and Sutcliffe). The statistics indicate that in 2 or 3 years, if Freo have a decent run with few injuries, then we should get to really see how successful our current rebuild is. Until then, I feel the finger pointing and blame game is based on a narrative heard in the media and not so much supported by recent history.

I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.

 

[MadDocker]

I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.

I'm not convinced the club are turning away better options for those positions. No point sacking staff and having no one of decent quality to replace them with. We actively looked at people like Hird etc so they are sniffing around. I'm sure if they could land a wizard in any of the areas the club would do it. We've done it before.

 

[Mudd]

Over the years, I've come to realise that the news in the media regarding Fremantle, their players, coaches, performances, etc... is often aligned to a far more negative narrative than what I believe to be true. Reading this thread, it saddens me when I see supposed Freo supporters who repeat many of those same negative narratives.

Here's my understanding of Freo's recent years under Ross Lyon;

In 2015, Freo won the minor premiership. They were eliminated in the Preliminary Final by the eventual three-peat premiers Hawthorn. There was plenty of media talk about how Freo couldn't win the premiership because they did not have enough scoring capabilities. But the only team in 2015 with a defence (ranked by Home and Away points) better than Freo was Hawthorn. The Hawks were also one of the few teams to have an older and more experienced team than Freo.

By the end of 2015, Freo appeared to be under pressure to find a way to overcome the skilled uncontested football game plan that the Hawks had.
Freo recruited assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience.
So in 2016, Freo with a revised game plan, got smashed (largely in scores from turnovers) by the Western Bulldogs in round 1. It was the bulldogs (eventual 2016 premiers) 10th successive win at their home ground (Docklands). Freo were without Sandilands, Johnson, A.Pearce (and promising recruits Harley Bennell and Shane Yarran).
In round 2, Freo again got beaten by Gold Coast at Subi. Statistically, Freo played OK, but again got smashed by costly turnovers and Freo's failure to defend against Gold Coasts run and spread. There appeared to be a move away from getting numbers to and behind the contested ball to now be more offensive to improve Freo's uncontested possession (ie. as Hawthorn do).
Next is the Western derby with Mundy missing and Sandilands getting injured in the 2nd qtr. The Slime win.
Freo then get Norths at the Docklands. Norths are in great form (older and more experienced) and end up winning their first 9 games of 2016. Freo are without Sandilands and Mundy and already trying to find some depth in younger players such as Weller, Langdon, A.Pearce, Taberner, Sheridan & Sutcliffe.
By then end of Round 5 after losing a close game at home to Carlton, with 7 Freo players with 50 games or less, and Fyfe breaking his leg, with no Sandilands, and Mundy, Freo's chances of playing finals in 2016 looks bleak.
I've gone to the effort here to show that sometimes in AFL, things just don't go your way. Can Freo be blamed for some of that? Yep. But there was also a great deal of bad luck happening. By the end of round 16 2016, I read an article which showed Freo had been affected by injury worse than any other AFL team. The article ranked the effect of the injuries by the quality of players lost. Freo had 431 points with Collingwood a distant 2nd worse off with 263 points.

So Freo bite the bullet and start the rebuild at the end of 2016 with aggressive recruiting via the draft and trade.
Fast forward to today and Freo are now consistently fielding a team of players that are currently considerably younger and less experienced than any of the current top 8 teams.

The picture I'm trying to paint is, I'm not so sure it's fair to be blaming Freo or Ross Lyon for the last few years. Unfortunate circumstances have pretty much dictated our recent history. If I look back further to the start of Ross Lyon's tenure (ie. end of 2011), I still struggle to identify any obvious failings. Attempts have been made to net some big fish, but they continue to escape capture. Last weekend, there was just 4 players who were recruited prior to Lyon arriving at Freo (Mundy, S.Hill, Walters and Sutcliffe). The statistics indicate that in 2 or 3 years, if Freo have a decent run with few injuries, then we should get to really see how successful our current rebuild is. Until then, I feel the finger pointing and blame game is based on a narrative heard in the media and not so much supported by recent history.

There are a lot of excuses in here for a supposed no excuses football club.

As you've mentioned most of the media is negative against us at the moment and there is also a lot of negativity from posters on this board... Sure there are some in the media who have an agenda against us but the majority of the media don't, they are far more impartial than us rabid Freo fans, maybe what you believe to be true isn't quite true?

 

[wayToGo_]

There are a lot of excuses in here for a supposed no excuses football club.

Why does this phrase continually get brought up and applied to BF posters? If Ross comes out and says we are a non-melting football club can we then bring it up every time someone melts about everything from selection to injuries to game plan to 'culture'?

And the continual bringing up "sustained success" thing. They were comments from years ago when the club was in an entirely different stage. Sustained success (in the way most on here would interpret it) is impossible in a competition with 18 teams and only one winner each year.

I'm all for constructive criticism and debate but can we do away with the silly strawmans?