List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[Rion]

Seen 2010 get mentioned a few times as if it was only our 2nd year of the last rebuild and three years of missing finals being unacceptable...

2005 we finished 10th on the ladder
2006 we finished 3rd - Schofield retired.
2007 we finished 11th - Cook, Longmuir, Parker retired. Walker, Hadrill delisted.
2008 we finished 14th - Bell, Black, MCarr, Farmer, Johnson, McManus, Webster retired. JCarr delisted.
2009 we finished 14th - Solomon retired.
2010 we finished 6th - Haselby, Headland, Thornton retired. Dodd delisted.
2011 we finished 10th - Hayden, Schammer retired.
2012 we finished 7th (in Ross' first year) - Grover retired. McPhee delisted.

IMO our last rebuild started at the end of 2007 (after we fell from 3rd to 11th) when our long serving players started retiring and ended in 2012 after Ross' first season with us. We were out of the finals for 3 years, then snuck into the finals and then fell out again the following year. In those years there were only 16 teams playing, so average was making finals 50% of the time.

2013 we finished 3rd - nobody notable retired or was delisted.
2014 we finished 4th - Bradley, Gumbleton retired.
2015 we finished 1st - McPharlin, Sylvia retired. Crowley delisted.
2016 we finished 16th - Pavlich retired. Barlow, Mzungu, CPearce, de Boer, Silvagni delisted.
2017 we finished 14th - Dawson, Ibbotson retired. Clarke, Suban, Griffin delisted.

So IMO this rebuild started at the end of 2016 (after we fell from 1st to 16th) and Pavlich retired and we delisted a heap of long serving players. There are now 18 teams playing, so average is now making the finals 44.4% of the time.

Last rebuild we went from 14th to 6th in one year but given we stumbled out of the finals the following year it is perhaps a bit misleading. Sandi and Mundy are our only remaining key veterans on our list. Our list should get a lot better quite quickly from now onward. Over half our current B22 will hit the magic 50+ games experience either next year or the year following. We'll start having a demographic far more in line with those in the 8 or just outside. There are a bunch of teams playing old B22s (eg Port, WC, Hawks, Adelaide, Essendon, Geelong etc). All of these teams have a bunch of veterans in key positions that for most will mean they will fall off a cliff when they go (there is always a tipping point) and provide space for us to move up into. Quite a few of them invested heavily in the past two off seasons (via trades/FA) to try and extend their window - IMO it has created an exaggerated and temporary gap in the middle of the ladder between young and old teams. It probably won't be as sudden as our '15 to '16 drop but history suggests it will inevitably happen for most, if not all of these clubs in the coming couple of years.

Assuming we can continue the good trading and drafting we've seen in the past couple of years we can set ourselves up well to make a push. We are probably a long shot to make finals again next year but my expectation is for us to at least continue climbing the ladder (if we don't show improvement then Ross' tenure would be in jeopardy). If we don't make finals in 2020 then the rebuild will have failed and Ross will accept responsibility - and we'll almost certainly get a new coach who should inherit a fairly decent list. Based on timings from last time around, 2022 is the equivalent of 2013 so it's not as if we are padding out the timeline here.

We need to stop reacting so emotionally over an individual loss as if we are the worst team in history (or a win as if it is a sign we are the GOAT) and just accept we are building toward having a balanced list and team that can be consistently competitive. If anyone can go back and find a team playing ~12 players under 50 games experience each week that made the 8 I'd love to know about it. Plenty of the criticism on here is justified but if you provide it in the context of where we are really at, it's far from the doomsday many are making out.

I think you've got to look at the arguments/criticism in context of Ross' future, not our future as a whole. Like you say if we aren't challenging in 2019/making finals in 2020 (which is actually less than what the stated ambition actually was but regardless) then he's gone. That means this year has to matter a lot more than it would comparably at a Brisbane/Carlton who started their rebuilds under their new coach. They have no real need of a specified time-line because it's a 'fresh start' and that's what they can sell to their members.

When you look at our efforts this season I'm not sure I'm seeing enough to make me confident we'll make it out of the bottom 8 or so next year (particularly if Sandi goes/doesn't play). So we might not fail in the rebuild because of course eventually even if it is 6-7 years down the track we'll make finals but I'm not sure Ross survives.

 

[Nothing]

Read the context of the posts I was responding to, tants.

Here's the thing I like about you: you were one of the biggest denialists of what was about to occur in 2015, fervently telling people that the club knew what it was doing. How can you continue to suppose you're the voice of authority when you got things so hopelessly wrong?

I read the context and that your argument changes to suit your narrative.

As for the second part, I'd be very happy for you to find any posts of mine that support your second assertion.

 

[blue shark]

This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
What we can all acknowledge is that hasn't worked since 2015.
All the clubs from 2015 that have won the GF have risen from diversity, even the Hawks were at one stage close to merging. They also only won 4 games in 2004 so things can change very quickly.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.

 

[malpaso]

This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
What we can all acknowledge is that hasn't worked since 2015.
All the clubs from 2015 that have won the GF have risen from diversity, even the Hawks were at one stage close to merging. They also only won 4 games in 2004 so things can change very quickly.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.

How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?

 

[nurries]

How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?

Clubs that don't improve get it wrong. How much have we really improved since last year? We are about the same in W/L as we were and I know that improvement is the main Freo "metric" but tell me if you saw that last week end or against Melbourne or against Brisbane here? We have only beaten teams in the bottom 3rd of the ladder and 1 slugfest at home against Port with 2 of their best players injured during the game. We have only been competitive away from home against a team that is bordering on one of the worst ever.

Our coaching staff changes have been vanilla at best, we have changed heaps of players some have been OK, some are just shite.

I just don't see much improvement

 

[PurpleEyes]

I agree somewhat with your post. I agree that a rebuild, restump, replumb or whatever was definitely required. Probably should of started as a mini one a few years earlier but I just want to know why the whole football department was not properly reviewed at the time?

We still have the same footy ops manager, mostly the same coaches and pertinent for the highlighted part here, the same S & C people. There seems to be a real stubbornness to not look into every part of the club in order to improve. Lets just bring in new players and not change much else is like Buying a brand new $2000 Amp for your Home Theatre system and attach them to your old crap $50 speakers. Its still going to sound like shit.

But didn't Freo bring in a couple of assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience at the end of 2015 in an attempt to play more like Hawthorn ... and I would suggest we suffered because of it.
My point being, not all changes result in improvements and trying to now declare in hindsight that Freo should have reviewed things earlier when Freo won the minor premiership in 2015 is contradictory. Freo rightly acknowledged that they had a small premiership window with key players like Sandilands, Pavlich, Mundy, Johnson, McPharlin. What Freo appeared to lack was quality depth in their list to cover for injuries and aging veterans. That wasn't something they could easily resolve without a larger rebuild and playing youth ... which is what they went and did the minute Finals looked unlikely (early in 2016).

Even an argument that Freo's S&C staff have done a bad job is subjective. I haven't exactly seen any strong evidence that better staff are available and I struggle with the concept that better S&C staff would have prevented Fyfe from getting corked by Mitchell, Sandilands being kneed by Nic Nat, Harley having glass calf's, A.Pearce breaking his leg, Logue having a congenital foot problem ... Sometimes luck deals you a bad hand and you just have to do your best. Has Freo done their best ... I don't know because I'm not in the inner circle to decide, but making subjective criticisms from afar with no logical suggestions of what Freo should have done better just sounds like whinging to me.

 

[Okinakashi]

This is a club problem more than just blaming everything on one person, and as a club we need to be on the front foot.
The above clubs made changes either new coach, or better assistants, I don;t see how we improve standing still.

How is the club not on the front foot?

Since 2016 (not even 2 seasons ago) Freo has:

- Lost (delisted / retired/ traded) 25 players (13 in the 2016/7 off season and 12 in 17/18 - that's 25 out of 44 in 12 months).
- Traded for a number of experienced players
- Stared down GCS and then drafted 2 of the best 5 youngsters in the Country
- As well as bringing in David Hale, Brent Guerra, Adam Reid and Tom Morris (High Performance Coaching manager)

AND

Designed and Built the best AFL training facility in the World.

Since March 24th 2018 we've had 7 players make their AFL Debuts.

None of this is what a club who is on the back foot or is "standing still" does.

Sure it was a crappy game on the weekend and some of the decisions the club makes aren't great, or don't work out - but accusing the club of "standing still" is complete baloney.

 

[blue shark]

How are we standing still? Ridiculous statement, no club stands still. We have made heaps of player changes, our coaching staff has changed/altered every year. All clubs try to be on the 'front foot' sometimes it pans out and sometimes it doesn't. 17 clubs got it wrong last year did they?

Prior, Bond, Weber have been around the club since 2008. Tom Morris since 2016, has anybody seen or heard from him?

 

[MadDocker]

Prior, Bond, Weber have been around the club since 2008. Tom Morris since 2016, has anybody seen or heard from him?

Do you think you should be publicly hearing from Tom Morris? The clubs high performance coaching manager. If so, why?

 

[UYD 4 Life]

I think you've got to look at the arguments/criticism in context of Ross' future, not our future as a whole. Like you say if we aren't challenging in 2019/making finals in 2020 (which is actually less than what the stated ambition actually was but regardless) then he's gone. That means this year has to matter a lot more than it would comparably at a Brisbane/Carlton who started their rebuilds under their new coach. They have no real need of a specified time-line because it's a 'fresh start' and that's what they can sell to their members.

When you look at our efforts this season I'm not sure I'm seeing enough to make me confident we'll make it out of the bottom 8 or so next year (particularly if Sandi goes/doesn't play). So we might not fail in the rebuild because of course eventually even if it is 6-7 years down the track we'll make finals but I'm not sure Ross survives.

Brisbane started their rebuild under Leppitsch he turned over something like 34 players in 3 years - this would be the 5th year of their rebuild. They'll still finish below us.

 

[nurries]

But didn't Freo bring in a couple of assistant coaches with Hawthorn experience at the end of 2015 in an attempt to play more like Hawthorn ... and I would suggest we suffered because of it.
My point being, not all changes result in improvements and trying to now declare in hindsight that Freo should have reviewed things earlier when Freo won the minor premiership in 2015 is contradictory. Freo rightly acknowledged that they had a small premiership window with key players like Sandilands, Pavlich, Mundy, Johnson, McPharlin. What Freo appeared to lack was quality depth in their list to cover for injuries and aging veterans. That wasn't something they could easily resolve without a larger rebuild and playing youth ... which is what they went and did the minute Finals looked unlikely (early in 2016).

Even an argument that Freo's S&C staff have done a bad job is subjective. I haven't exactly seen any strong evidence that better staff are available and I struggle with the concept that better S&C staff would have prevented Fyfe from getting corked by Mitchell, Sandilands being kneed by Nic Nat, Harley having glass calf's, A.Pearce breaking his leg, Logue having a congenital foot problem ... Sometimes luck deals you a bad hand and you just have to do your best. Has Freo done their best ... I don't know because I'm not in the inner circle to decide, but making subjective criticisms from afar with no logical suggestions of what Freo should have done better just sounds like whinging to me.

We suffered because we got Hawthorns dregs. Instead of getting in Hale or Guerra, how about Ratten, someone with experience. Do you know why? Because of experience and Ratten wouldn't be a yes man and Ross would be concerned about his job. None of the Assistant coaches we have are currently worthy of stepping in to the senior role. Do you know why? Because that's the way Ross likes it. He isn't accountable to his position because no one else here could be any better.

With the S & C staff, I agree wit what you are saying with unavoidable injuries but we have seen how long some of the rehabs have taken only to have them break down again. Like Logue and was Pearce ready to return before he broke down the 2nd time. Should Brad Hill have come back onto the ground in Round 2? There are many other examples like this over the current S & C staff time if you dig down deep enough.

A broom needs to go through the whole footy department this year (should of been 2015) not just the playing group. If its not the best you can get, then its not good enough.

 

[nurries]

Brisbane started their rebuild under Leppitsch he turned over something like 34 players in 3 years - this would be the 5th year of their rebuild. They'll still finish below us.

I bet they don't next year

 

[MadDocker]

A broom needs to go through the whole footy department this year (should of been 2015) not just the playing group. If its not the best you can get, then its not good enough.

The best you can get and the best there is might not be the same thing. I think that's more likely to be our issue upgrading some of the staff.

 

[UYD 4 Life]

I bet they don't next year

They should - will be year 6 plus they have had the advantage of a priority pick and academy selections (including harris andrews and eric hipwood)

I'd still back us in.

 

[Deathly]

I bet they don't next year

I expected them to get 6-8 wins this year but they only have 4. Hodge was big in 2 of those and has been a big contributor to their performance all year. They'll miss him and be lucky to get this years expectations next year.

 

[nurries]

They should - will be year 6 plus they have had the advantage of a priority pick and academy selections (including harris andrews and eric hipwood)

I'd still back us in.

So you back us in based on what? The way we played them a month ago?

They also beat the Hawks away from home. Something we can only dream of doing?

 

[eastfreo75]

I expected them to get 6-8 wins this year but they only have 4. Hodge was big in 2 of those and has been a big contributor to their performance all year. They'll miss him and be lucky to get this years expectations next year.

Compare the record with Sandilands and without.

Also, the Lions has been more competitive in more games than us but with less wins and about the same percentage.

 

[UYD 4 Life]

So your logic goes whoever wins the last match-up will finish higher on the ladder the next year?

 

[Deathly]

Compare the record with Sandilands and without.

Also, the Lions has been more competitive in more games than us but with less wins and about the same percentage.

They had 5 last year without Hodge, they'll be lucky to meet that this year with him as a more experienced side with a #1 Pick & Charlie Cameron added on top.

"more competitive than us" What does that even mean? Are you talking about those handful of games during the first half of the season? Or that one Adelaide game a few weeks back? Those 5-6 games where they were "more competitive than us" with an older and more experienced list? The same list that scored 17 points in one game? Their injury list all year has only been Andrews & Cameron too. They should of been as competitive as us, but I don't really think they have been overall. In selective, narrow patches? Sure.

Also a team with more clearances, marks i50 / i50 entries with a functioning forward line all year has more percentage than us? Huge accomplishment in comparison right there.

Like I said, they should of been around 8 this year but will be lucky to get that next year. Our rebuilds aren't even comparable.

 

[Nothing]

Clubs that don't improve get it wrong. How much have we really improved since last year? We are about the same in W/L as we were and I know that improvement is the main Freo "metric" but tell me if you saw that last week end or against Melbourne or against Brisbane here? We have only beaten teams in the bottom 3rd of the ladder and 1 slugfest at home against Port with 2 of their best players injured during the game. We have only been competitive away from home against a team that is bordering on one of the worst ever.

Our coaching staff changes have been vanilla at best, we have changed heaps of players some have been OK, some are just shite.

I just don't see much improvement

Plus Adelaide and Essendon

 

[wayToGo_]

I expected them to get 6-8 wins this year but they only have 4. Hodge was big in 2 of those and has been a big contributor to their performance all year. They'll miss him and be lucky to get this years expectations next year.

Not just Hodge... They've got quite a large group of old players that are critical to their competitiveness, especially in their midfield which tends to avg 29 years old!...

Luke Hodge (34)
Stefan Martin (31)
Dayne Zorko (29)
Dayne Beams (28)
Mitch Robinson (29)
Daniel Rich (28)
Rowan Bewick (28)
Allen Christensen (27)
Ryan Bastinac (27)

 

[nurries]

So your logic goes whoever wins the last match-up will finish higher on the ladder the next year?

Didn't say that. Just Brissy had a game plan that was executed well. They seemed to have clicked. Their last month has been quite good

 

[UYD 4 Life]

Didn't say that. Just Brissy had a game plan that was executed well. They seemed to have clicked. Their last month has been quite good

No doubt. i see a lot of improvement in us too though. Should see natural improvement from alll of pearce, cerra, brayshaw, cox, darcy, ryan, logue. Plus would hope to get more games out of fyfe, bhill, taberner, blakely, darcy, logue. Core defence of hamling, pearce, ryan and wilson are stringing games together and building chemistry

 

[Unique Name]

Plus Adelaide and Essendon

and Port Adelaide.

But shhhh, that doesn't fit the narrative.

 

[nurries]

No doubt. i see a lot of improvement in us too though. Should see natural improvement from alll of pearce, cerra, brayshaw, cox, darcy, ryan, logue. Plus would hope to get more games out of fyfe, bhill, taberner, blakely, darcy, logue. Core defence of hamling, pearce, ryan and wilson are stringing games together and building chemistry

I see improvement in the players, no doubt. I don't have the same faith in the coach nor the game plan