List Mgmt. Ross Lyon - Sacked

[nurries]

and Port Adelaide.

But shhhh, that doesn't fit the narrative.

If you read the post, I mentioned that and the fact that they lost 2 of their best players by half time

 

[Scham]

Not just Hodge... They've got quite a large group of old players that are critical to their competitiveness, especially in their midfield which tends to avg 29 years old!...

Luke Hodge (34)
Stefan Martin (31)
Dayne Zorko (29)
Dayne Beams (28)
Mitch Robinson (29)
Daniel Rich (28)
Rowan Bewick (28)
Allen Christensen (27)
Ryan Bastinac (27)

A lot of quality there.

 

[nurries]

Plus Adelaide and Essendon

Oh Sorry Adelaide 12th, Essendon 11th (after winning 5 out of their last 6!!) nearly bottom 3rd. Where were they on the ladder when we played them?

 

[Deathly]

and the fact that they lost 2 of their best players by half time

Given the conditions the game would of been buried by then if we kicked straight anyways. At least they started the game with 2 of their best players.

 

[UYD 4 Life]

I think a good way to look at the improvement we have made this year would be to see who you could pencil in as best 22 for the next 5 years at the end last season compared to the end of this season.

For mine

Best 22 (for next 5 years) end of 2017
Hamling, Hill, Fyfe, Hill, Walters, Neale, Blakely, Weller
Maybes Darcy, Ryan

Best 22 (for next 5 years) present
Hamling, Ryan, Wilson, Pearce, Hill, Neale, Langdon, Taberner, Walters, Cox, Darcy, Fyfe, Hill, Brayshaw, Cerra, Blakely

 

[Scham]

No doubt. i see a lot of improvement in us too though. Should see natural improvement from alll of pearce, cerra, brayshaw, cox, darcy, ryan, logue. Plus would hope to get more games out of fyfe, bhill, taberner, blakely, darcy, logue. Core defence of hamling, pearce, ryan and wilson are stringing games together and building chemistry

This is Freo supporters since day 1.

 

[MadDocker]

I see improvement in the players, no doubt. I don't have the same faith in the coach nor the game plan

Besides Scott walking into a powerhouse Geelong team, has there ever been a coach walk in and achieve instant success? The chances of it happening are slim to none. Players take time to adapt to the new structures and game plan etc. If we were to sack Lyon and bring in another coach, particularly a rookie coach, may as well trade anyone over 27 for picks and start from scratch. Even then could very well end up in a worse position. See Carlton/Saints etc.

 

[tonygeeks]

Jeezus we are comparing ourselves to the Lions now ?

We've got those Suns clowns covered too




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[nurries]

Besides Scott walking into a powerhouse Geelong team, has there ever been a coach walk in and achieve instant success? The chances of it happening are slim to none. Players take time to adapt to the new structures and game plan etc. If we were to sack Lyon and bring in another coach, particularly a rookie coach, may as well trade anyone over 27 for picks and start from scratch. Even then could very well end up in a worse position. See Carlton/Saints etc.

Not many coaches get sacked when a side is contending either but hey. There are a few coaches who have gotten their side into a GF after 2-3 years. Lyon is one, Simpson is another. I would take that.

I just don't think Lyon's style can achieve that anymore with the way the game has changed and the way he hasn't.

 

[eastfreo75]

They had 5 last year without Hodge, they'll be lucky to meet that this year with him as a more experienced side with a #1 Pick & Charlie Cameron added on top.

"more competitive than us" What does that even mean? Are you talking about those handful of games during the first half of the season? Or that one Adelaide game a few weeks back? Those 5-6 games where they were "more competitive than us" with an older and more experienced list? The same list that scored 17 points in one game? Their injury list all year has only been Andrews & Cameron too. They should of been as competitive as us, but I don't really think they have been overall. In selective, narrow patches? Sure.

Also a team with more clearances, marks i50 / i50 entries with a functioning forward line all year has more percentage than us? Huge accomplishment in comparison right there.

Like I said, they should of been around 8 this year but will be lucky to get that next year. Our rebuilds aren't even comparable.

Lions have lost 4 games under 9 points and Dockers has had 1.

Lions have had 2 losses over 50 and Dockers has had 7.

If you consider 30 point or less losses to wins as being considered competitive. Lions 14 games vs Dockers 11 games (I included the 31 point loss to the Giants).

Lions percentage is 89.92 vs Dockers 80.29

We are 5-6 with Sandilands and 2-5 without.

Lions have their spine in place and we still lack a key forward.

Lions will finish higher than us next year.

 

[nurries]

Lions have lost 4 games under 9 points and Dockers has had 1.

Lions have had 2 losses over 50 and Dockers has had 7.

If you consider 30 point or less losses to wins as being considered competitive. Lions 14 games vs Dockers 11 games (I included the 31 point loss to the Giants).

Lions percentage is 89.92 vs Dockers 80.29

We are 5-6 with Sandilands and 2-5 without.

Lions have their spine in place and we still lack a key forward.

Lions will finish higher than us next year.

exactly

 

[salim malik]

Lions have lost 4 games under 9 points and Dockers has had 1.

Lions have had 2 losses over 50 and Dockers has had 7.

If you consider 30 point or less losses to wins as being considered competitive. Lions 14 games vs Dockers 11 games (I included the 31 point loss to the Giants).

Lions percentage is 89.92 vs Dockers 80.29

We are 5-6 with Sandilands and 2-5 without.

Lions have their spine in place and we still lack a key forward.

Lions will finish higher than us next year.

Spin it any way that makes you feel better but Freo have nearly doubled Brisbanes wins with a much younger less experienced squad . There is no way you can spin that fact .

 

[wayToGo_]

A lot of quality there.

Martin, Zorko, Beams, Hodge? Tough crowd The rest aren't world beaters but are still going to hold up better than a couple of first year 18 year olds playing in the guts primarily. Is Brisbane's much different to our midfield in 2015? Where we had a bunch of seasoned role players surrounding a core group of elite midfielders that carried us. You are far more competitive but delaying the inevitable perhaps? At least they don't have as far to fall if it does happen though I'm not convinced about Brisbane... if they didn't rely so much on guys like Martin, Hodge, Zorko and Beams to carry them to just 4 wins this season I'd back them to be the big improvers in 2019. But who do they have to fill the void if they retire/get injured?

 

[Deathly]

Lions have lost 4 games under 9 points and Dockers has had 1.

Lions have had 2 losses over 50 and Dockers has had 7.

Cool - but they still didn't win those 4 games and aren't where they should be. The "competitiveness" of those games I already acknowledged through their list compared to ours. You're just piling evidence that's going nowhere.

If you consider 30 point or less losses to wins as being considered competitive. Lions 14 games vs Dockers 11 games (I included the 31 point loss to the Giants).

Cool, so a team with a less significant injury list and more mature list was competitive in 3 more games than us. That's pretty terrible if you ask me. More evidence piling leading nowhere.

Lions percentage is 89.92 vs Dockers 80.29

Cool, I already acknowledged that we have a lower percentage and noted key stats that deservedly warrant them to have better percentage - on top of fielding a consistent forward line, with a real forward line compared to our experimental one. Not sure why you're re-stating things.

We are 5-6 with Sandilands and 2-5 without.

What's the point of this stat? I didn't mention it before because it seemed bizarre. Are you comparing 1 of many outs we've had to Hodge? So with AND without Sandilands we have more wins compared to Brisbane with AND without Hodge?

Lions will finish higher than us next year.

Cool, based on what? Still waiting for you to present something new or borderline convincing.

 

[Kram]

Brisbane have looked good recently but let's not get too carried away.

 

[eastfreo75]

Spin it any way that makes you feel better but Freo have nearly doubled Brisbanes wins with a much younger less experienced squad . There is no way you can spin that fact .

Much less inexperienced?

Lions List age average is 23.4 and 54 games vs Fremantle's age 23.9 and 63.3 games.

We may be a bit younger when you take Spurr, Johnson, Ballantyne and D Pearce out. But the difference isn't a lot.

If they turned some of their narrow losses into wins, we would be on about the same number of wins.

 

[wayToGo_]

Lions List age average is 23.4 and 54 games vs Fremantle's age 23.9 and 63.3 games.

List age means nothing. It's who you have on the park each week that counts. Brisbane are not playing one of the youngest B22s, we are.

What's funny is if we were doing what they were, there'd be a huge uproar here about all these young guys on our list not getting games

 

[eastfreo75]

List age means nothing. It's who you have on the park each week that counts. Brisbane are not playing one of the youngest B22s, we are.

What's funny is if we were doing what they were, there'd be a huge uproar here about all these young guys on our list not getting games

age difference isn't great.

 

[salim malik]

Much less inexperienced?

Lions List age average is 23.4 and 54 games vs Fremantle's age 23.9 and 63.3 games.

We may be a bit younger when you take Spurr, Johnson, Ballantyne and D Pearce out. But the difference isn't a lot.

If they turned some of their narrow losses into wins, we would be on about the same number of wins.

But they didnt and no matter what bullshit you throw up Freo have nearly doubled Brisbanes wins with the younger squad, end of story.

 

[Paracleet]

Seen 2010 get mentioned a few times as if it was only our 2nd year of the last rebuild and three years of missing finals being unacceptable...
<snip>
IMO our last rebuild started at the end of 2007 (after we fell from 3rd to 11th)

This is pretty much spot on. The only thing I'd add is that this rebuild is actually a bit more radical than the last.
After a disappointing 2007 there were 8 list changes, no picks traded away but no talk of an actual rebuild. After 2008 when we lost all those games after leading at half / 3/4 time (we finished 3rd last with a percentage of 94) there were mass retirements and delistings and then further delistings after 2009. In those two seasons we won 12 games (makes last years 8 and this years probable 8 or 9 look okay).
By 2010 the list turnover in a rebuilding sense was complete. We only drafted 3 new players in the main draft that season the rest were rookie upgrades.
Round 1 2010 we only played 5 draftees from the rebuild that weren't mature aged picks and 13 (!) players who had been at the club since before 2007. That's just in the 22. We did subsequently blood 3 or 4 of the 08/9 draftees consistently that year as dictated by form and injury, but the point is it then took basically until the end of Lyons first year, fully 3 seasons later, for the transitioning out of all the veteran players who didn't go on to form the core of the 13 to 15 sides to be completed.
This time round there are probably only going to be 14 players left, whether best 22 or fringe, on the whole list who were there at the start of 2016 who are still going to be there at the start of 2019:
Fyfe, Sandi, Mundy, Langdon, Hill, Blakely, Walters, Tucker, Tabener, Sheridan, Neale, Grey, Nyhuis and Apeness (and of those half have played less than 50 games). Its a virtual certainty at least one or two of that lot will go at the end of this year leaving the number more realistically between 12 and 10, possibly as low as 9.

 

[Rion]

Brisbane started their rebuild under Leppitsch he turned over something like 34 players in 3 years - this would be the 5th year of their rebuild. They'll still finish below us.

But that's my point. A new coach coming in completely resets the time-scale because the club can sell the idea that the previous path was flawed (which satisfies the 'baying' supporters who hold that opinion) and enables them to sell that they're on a new path etc.

 

[Paracleet]

age difference isn't great.

List ages tend to have a narrow range, in fact its pretty much an irrelevant stat. What is relevant is the age and experience of the 22 you put out regularly. Last week for comparison:


Brisbane are now a much more experienced team, than an rebuilding one anyway, thanks to having had essentially three goes back to back at rebuilding. They now have a decent list which they have managed to get games into. 8 players under 50 games, which is moderate, but few first year players. Where as we had an 'asking for a spanking' profile of 12 under 50 and only 2 +150!

 

[malpaso]

Clubs that don't improve get it wrong. How much have we really improved since last year? We are about the same in W/L as we were and I know that improvement is the main Freo "metric" but tell me if you saw that last week end or against Melbourne or against Brisbane here? We have only beaten teams in the bottom 3rd of the ladder and 1 slugfest at home against Port with 2 of their best players injured during the game. We have only been competitive away from home against a team that is bordering on one of the worst ever.

Our coaching staff changes have been vanilla at best, we have changed heaps of players some have been OK, some are just shite.

I just don't see much improvement

You should look at the statistical rankings compared to last year rather than W/L. We have improved markedly from being last or near last in important categories like field kicking. How many 100pt losses have we had this year compared to last? Open your eyes.

 

[its free real estate]

Two of our 100 point thrashings came in the last three rounds and the season isn't over yet.

 

[wayToGo_]

age difference isn't great.

In the last round it was more than a year difference (23y6m vs 24y8m). They also averaged 93 games per player vs 72.1 for us. They played 5 players with 150+ games and we played 2. They played 8 players < 50 games, we played 12.

None of this is insignificant. They are fielding a team closer in demographic to Melbourne. We are fielding a younger and less experienced team than Carlton. They easily have the lowest win/loss of those teams playing a demographic near in their range. We have a win/loss better than all the teams fielding teams with a similar demographic to us.

Do either of our teams deserve deserve to be put on a pedestal... no.

edit - what Paracleet said