Autopsy Round 13, 2021: Hawks sink the Swans

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grumbleguts

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
11,299
24,508
Tully FNQ
AFL Club
Hawthorn
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....
I think the vast majority of people on here who understand endurance think he was mistaken with this particular line and possibly should have started it with the pronoun "you"

You have stated on a couple of occasions that you are not a fan of Moore, but your constant criticism suggests you friggin' hate him. Someone asked you if he ran over your dog. I feel it's more than that. He has shown he has one of the highest endurance levels in the club, repeatedly, by several measures, and you just can't seem to accept actual evidence and would rather go with "but I don't like him so his endurance is rookie level."
 

Beandip

Club Legend
Sep 22, 2010
2,332
4,057
Hobart
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Other Teams
Chicago Bulls, Roys SFA
"Match fitness" i.e. conditioning takes time; it's like breaking in a pair of shoes.

Rather than disparaging Moore, I'd say it's great he has the aerobic capacity to be covering so many kilometres in a tough role, I look forward to him continuing to add conditioning to absorb and recover from tackles/hits etc. and become a more rounded player ;) - he has a football brain, and you can't teach that!
 

FactsNotBS

Debutant
Aug 21, 2020
68
133
AFL Club
Gold Coast
Other Teams
Always Hawthorn. Just kidding GC.
I think the vast majority of people on here who understand endurance think he was mistaken with this particular line and possibly should have started it with the pronoun "you"

You have stated on a couple of occasions that you are not a fan of Moore, but your constant criticism suggests you friggin' hate him. Someone asked you if he ran over your dog. I feel it's more than that. He has shown he has one of the highest endurance levels in the club, repeatedly, by several measures, and you just can't seem to accept actual evidence and would rather go with "but I don't like him so his endurance is rookie level."
Moore has held his spot as a half forward in front of Hanrahan, Morris, Brockman and co...that tells you our coaches believe in him and prefer him..end of story... they are on the inside, you, we, are not. In the end it is opinion based on a lack of detailed information. It makes me laugh that anyone can begin to judge who has endurance and who doesnt. All players are at different points at any given moment. Coming back from injury, playing with an injury, back from suspension, interrupted pre-season...etc...it is rediculous for any of us to make that assesment. I'll bet you there are 4-10 players playing with some kind of soreness or issue at this time of the year. How do we know, for example, the reason why a player couldnt run out the game? We assume it is "engine". Rubbish! It is often a change of role, or injury or just run out of juice in that one game due to a bad nights sleep. Who knows? Its hard enough to know whats going on in the inside let alone comment about it from the outside. Personally, I think Moore is exciting, a great link/team player who has proven he can finish better than the others. At this moment, he would be our best replacement for Bruest when he eventually retires. He can really turn on the forward pressure. Like him a lot.
 

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grumbleguts

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
11,299
24,508
Tully FNQ
AFL Club
Hawthorn
Moore has held his spot as a half forward in front of Hanrahan, Morris, Brockman and co...that tells you our coaches believe in him and prefer him..end of story... they are on the inside, you, we, are not. In the end it is opinion based on a lack of detailed information. It makes me laugh that anyone can begin to judge who has endurance and who doesnt. All players are at different points at any given moment. Coming back from injury, playing with an injury, back from suspension, interrupted pre-season...etc...it is rediculous for any of us to make that assesment. I'll bet you there are 4-10 players playing with some kind of soreness or issue at this time of the year. How do we know, for example, the reason why a player couldnt run out the game? We assume it is "engine". Rubbish! It is often a change of role, or injury or just run out of juice in that one game due to a bad nights sleep. Who knows? Its hard enough to know whats going on in the inside let alone comment about it from the outside. Personally, I think Moore is exciting, a great link/team player who has proven he can finish better than the others. At this moment, he would be our best replacement for Bruest when he eventually retires. He can really turn on the forward pressure. Like him a lot.
Was this specifically in response to me? because it seems you are agreeing with pretty much everything I said, but sound like you're arguing against me. signed - confused
 

FactsNotBS

Debutant
Aug 21, 2020
68
133
AFL Club
Gold Coast
Other Teams
Always Hawthorn. Just kidding GC.
Was this specifically in response to me? because it seems you are agreeing with pretty much everything I said, but sound like you're arguing against me. signed - confused
Was this specifically in response to me? because it seems you are agreeing with pretty much everything I said, but sound like you're arguing against me. signed - confused
Yours was the last comment I read so I replied to that. No, I wasnt replying to your comments specifically it was a comment on the topic. Note I said "...you,we...(are not on the inside)". Hope that clarifies. :grinning:
 

Turly

Club Legend
Apr 23, 2010
2,459
4,127
mill park
AFL Club
Hawthorn
"I don't know what ure talking about but..." ....

You start your post with a rhetorical line that is used in adversarial debates to insult the adversary. It is that kind of post that turns me off the Hawks page - Why is there a need for implied personal criticism? You could have said: "I may have misunderstood you but...". That stuff matters.

On the matter of Moore - allow me to clarify the discussion that included me. It falls into 3 categories:

1. Some think it is about Moore having a naturally small tank (i don't know why).

2. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is not that full because he hasn't had many preseasons.

3. Some think it is about Moore having a big tank that is full and among the top 5% range at Hawthorn and thus the whole league.

My posts have argued the 2nd point. Many have interpreted that as a cricticsm of Moore, and not as a view of where he can/will improve - especially given he is a running player..

I argue that players like Shiels and Hardwick are currently much fresher than Moore because of their many preseasons. Hardwick - who is chasing a more experienced Moore on the opposing team every week - also has a game based on running efforts too. He achieves it every week, for 4 quarters. Moore doesn't. Hardwick jumps up when tackled. Moore doesn't.

You say Moore's stamina "way exceeds" Hardwick right now? I say Moore could not run with Papley all game and shut him down like Hardwick did - not because of his smarts, but because he doesn't have the tank - Moore would bust sooner or latter - even if he managed it for one week.

Moore has a rookies endurance.

It is obvious just by observing the length of time he has been at the club. And by watching him play games The Moore we see now who drifts out of games, and often who can't muster 2nd effots or 3rd efforts.

Personally I can't jump on the spot for five minutes and yet I can run for 2 hours without losing breath. Most warriors on the wekend who play footy are fitter than me when a football comes out- it takes time - it takes years to build up to AFL level stamina.

As Crawford once said: "That's what I'm Talkin Bout".
He isn't having a crack at you lol.

You are just factually incorrect. Don't take it personal :thumbsu:
 

Luv_our_club

Norm Smith Medallist
Feb 14, 2017
6,691
12,641
AFL Club
Hawthorn
I think the misunderstanding here is toughness not endurance. Dimma is definitely tougher than moore and will probably always will be. Dimma will recover from knocks and tackles a lot quicker than moore. As far as physical fitness is concerned moore has hardwick covered as others have already said moore covers more ground than the others. The fact that moore drifts in and out of games has nothing to do with his fitness
You say say there is a misunderstanding but then you say it proves you were right and i was wrong. But actually we are saying different things:

The distinction between "running" and "footballer" is meaningless - tackling efforts impact your ability to run, and running efforts impacts your ability to tackle.

Moore's history of poor defensive efforts, and history of drifting out of games (disappearing) - has a huge amount to do with current AFL level fitness. That is a compliment to him. I don't know why you would say it isn't a factor? "It has nothing to do with fitness"? is the view of you and others above.

A large of part of Moore's upside is improving his fitness. Actually it is is the biggest part of his upside.

Look at Morrison - just this year he discovered the defensive side to his game = because he has had the preseasons to be able to do it now. (He too is probably a better natural runner than Hardwick et al).

A team of Hardwicks would beat a Team of Moores imo= the losing coach's press conference would be all about needing more endurance "harder for longer". The coach will be thinking: "Wait a few years - we will get you". When Moore is truly fit- as fit as Hardwick - he can be judged as a player.

But you and others want to say Moore is already "way fitter" than Hardwick. (top 3 in the time trial must mean fitness isn't an issue?)

Hardwick - our best player this year - is chasing the fittest half forward all day on the opposing team. He runs as much as Moore does based on his position (not just ability) (i would be interested in the stats). Even if Hardwick only runs as much as Moore, Hardwick does it more powerfully. When he gets to the contest he can give more effort (and repeatedly).

That applies also to most other players like Shiels, Worpel, and so on, they have bigger tanks than Moore= they expend more energy on the ground. They are experienced players.

In your last post you say it is NOT an issue. You say that Moore and Hardwick are just different types. Hardwick is stronger. Moore is a better runner. I say in response that that is an ideal way of seeing their strengths, but it has no relation to what is is like playing AFL.

There is no way that anyone can say Moore is a "way fitter" AFL player than Hardwick right now, unless you put some finesse on it. And putting a division between "running" from "playing" doesn't cut it.

Of course Moore has more endurance potential as a runner than Hardwick. That's why I said with my first post: "He needs to build his tank" to become the player he can be. But his fitness is not a weapon in his game yet. He does not beat his opponents by covering more ground. He is not a Richmond half forward that he is trying to become. The top 3 in a very limited 3k time trial doesn't mean he is in the top 5% of our team and the AFL for output of energy. Hopefully one day Moore can run the opposition into the ground, and Hardwick et al. So that when he drifts out of games he can do something about it etc We will see less one quarter bursts from him, which has been most of his VFL/AFL career until now. We will see him better defensively.
 
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TheFourPillars

Brownlow Medallist
May 6, 2009
11,326
25,725
AFL Club
Hawthorn
You say say there is a misunderstanding but then you say it proves you were right and i was wrong. But actually we are saying different things:

The distinction between "running" and "footballer" is meaningless - tackling efforts impact your ability to run, and running efforts impacts your ability to tackle.

Moore's history of poor defensive efforts, and history of drifting out of games (disappearing) - has a huge amount to do with current AFL level fitness. That is a compliment to him. I don't know why you would say it isn't a factor? "It has nothing to do with fitness"? is the view of you and others above.

A large of part of Moore's upside is improving his fitness. Actually it is is the biggest part of his upside.

Look at Morrison - just this year he discovered the defensive side to his game = because he has had the preseasons to be able to do it now. (He too is probably a better natural runner than Hardwick et al).

A team of Hardwicks would beat a Team of Moores imo= the losing coach's press conference would be all about needing more endurance "harder for longer". The coach will be thinking: "Wait a few years - we will get you". When Moore is truly fit- as fit as Hardwick - he can be judged as a player.

But you and others want to say Moore is already "way fitter" than Hardwick. (top 3 in the time trial must mean fitness isn't an issue?)

Hardwick - our best player this year - is chasing the fittest half forward all day on the opposing team. He runs as much as Moore does based on his position (not just ability) (i would be interested in the stats). Even if Hardwick only runs as much as Moore, Hardwick does it more powerfully. When he gets to the contest he can give more effort (and repeatedly).

That applies also to most other players like Shiels, Worpel, and so on, they have bigger tanks than Moore= they expend more energy on the ground. They are experienced players.

In your last post you say it is NOT an issue. You say that Moore and Hardwick are just different types. Hardwick is stronger. Moore is a better runner. I say in response that that is an ideal way of seeing their strengths, but it has no relation to what is is like playing AFL.

There is no way that anyone can say Moore is a "way fitter" AFL player than Hardwick right now, unless you put some finesse on it. And putting a division between "running" from "playing" doesn't cut it.

Of course Moore has more endurance potential as a runner than Hardwick. That's why I said with my first post: "He needs to build his tank" to become the player he can be. But his fitness is not a weapon in his game yet. He does not beat his opponents by covering more ground. He is not a Richmond half forward that he is trying to become. The top 3 in a very limited 3k time trial doesn't mean he is in the top 5% of our team and the AFL for output of energy. Hopefully one day Moore can run the opposition into the ground, and Hardwick et al. So that when he drifts out of games he can do something about it etc We will see less one quarter bursts from him, which has been most of his VFL/AFL career until now. We will see him better defensively.
Moore's defensive efforts have nothing to do with his fitness. Do you think Puopolo or for that matter Rioli were fitter than someone like Isaac smith or Brad Hill? To be honest I think you are still confused about what you are trying to say. Puopolo and Rioli had burst speed, great agility and core strength. They used it very effectively against their opponents to provide the pressure and tackling efforts. In game they would be left miles behind both hill and smith for fitness and endurance. Dimma core strength makes him a great tackler. Do you think Jai is fitter than Moore? I mean he had 14 tackles last week
 

grumbleguts

Brownlow Medallist
Aug 14, 2011
11,299
24,508
Tully FNQ
AFL Club
Hawthorn
You say say there is a misunderstanding but then you say it proves you were right and i was wrong. But actually we are saying different things:

The distinction between "running" and "footballer" is meaningless - tackling efforts impact your ability to run, and running efforts impacts your ability to tackle.

Moore's history of poor defensive efforts, and history of drifting out of games (disappearing) - has a huge amount to do with current AFL level fitness. That is a compliment to him. I don't know why you would say it isn't a factor? "It has nothing to do with fitness"? is the view of you and others above.

A large of part of Moore's upside is improving his fitness. Actually it is is the biggest part of his upside.

Look at Morrison - just this year he discovered the defensive side to his game = because he has had the preseasons to be able to do it now. (He too is probably a better natural runner than Hardwick et al).

A team of Hardwicks would beat a Team of Moores imo= the losing coach's press conference would be all about needing more endurance "harder for longer". The coach will be thinking: "Wait a few years - we will get you". When Moore is truly fit- as fit as Hardwick - he can be judged as a player.

But you and others want to say Moore is already "way fitter" than Hardwick. (top 3 in the time trial must mean fitness isn't an issue?)

Hardwick - our best player this year - is chasing the fittest half forward all day on the opposing team. He runs as much as Moore does based on his position (not just ability) (i would be interested in the stats). Even if Hardwick only runs as much as Moore, Hardwick does it more powerfully. When he gets to the contest he can give more effort (and repeatedly).

That applies also to most other players like Shiels, Worpel, and so on, they have bigger tanks than Moore= they expend more energy on the ground. They are experienced players.

In your last post you say it is NOT an issue. You say that Moore and Hardwick are just different types. Hardwick is stronger. Moore is a better runner. I say in response that that is an ideal way of seeing their strengths, but it has no relation to what is is like playing AFL.

There is no way that anyone can say Moore is a "way fitter" AFL player than Hardwick right now, unless you put some finesse on it. And putting a division between "running" from "playing" doesn't cut it.

Of course Moore has more endurance potential as a runner than Hardwick. That's why I said with my first post: "He needs to build his tank" to become the player he can be. But his fitness is not a weapon in his game yet. He does not beat his opponents by covering more ground. He is not a Richmond half forward that he is trying to become. The top 3 in a very limited 3k time trial doesn't mean he is in the top 5% of our team and the AFL for output of energy. Hopefully one day Moore can run the opposition into the ground, and Hardwick et al. So that when he drifts out of games he can do something about it etc We will see less one quarter bursts from him, which has been most of his VFL/AFL career until now. We will see him better defensively.
Personally, I'd agree with you, but then... we'd both be wrong.
 

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