Autopsy Round 4 North Melbourne - The Good, Bad and Ugly.

[Lionheart182]

FWIW Martin was limping horribly during the third quarter and ran off the ground at the 3QT huddle assumably to get a jab. Was clearly playing injured most of the game.

 

[Lionheart182]

LOL at Karnezis. I didn't see much of him either. Hanley wasn't subbed out, did you watch the game? He came off injured, McGrath was subbed out at quarter time.

Hanley was also one of our best when he was on. We had a horrible day but that posters summation of the players is baffling.

 

[Only Forwards]

I thought that the Leuenberger vs Goldstein dual was quite good a good hard ruck contest.

I thought that Paparone was good after he came on.

I think that overall you got us on a week where we simply would not allow ourselves to lose and went out with that mindset. You probably witnessed the best game of the year so far for about 6-8 of our players.

I look forward to the game at the gabba, where you have typically had the wood on us and generally Brown tears us a new one.

Don't think you should have too many issues putting Melbourne away next week, but good luck all the same.

 

[Cousin Jed]

I thought that the Leuenberger vs Goldstein dual was quite good a good hard ruck contest.

I thought that Paparone was good after he came on.

I think that overall you got us on a week where we simply would not allow ourselves to lose and went out with that mindset. You probably witnessed the best game of the year so far for about 6-8 of our players.

Every week we are witnessing 6 players play their best games all year.

 

[notliondown]

Absolutely lazy and dysfunctional. Our gameplan is incapable of shutting down the opposition when we turn it over, and we turn it over a lot.

Voss for all his faults has kept this group very well motivated the previous four seasons, but he doesn't even seem to be able to extract effort from them at the moment. It is very worrying and if he doesn't manage to get them up and going in the next few weeks, that horror stretch from rounds 6-14 is going to kill Voss's coaching career.

Do you think that in our current frame of mind and state that we could successfully carry out ANY game plan with success?

I'm not suggesting for a moment that you were saying this is entire reason for our form or results but I'm really struggling to see where we actually have a plan or structure once the panic and unaccountability set in.

Good players make game plans look good... good players dont really need one. Right now we could send our boys out with Malthouses, Buckleys, Scotts, Worsefolds, Roo's or who evers game plan and within minutes it would be a shambles.

Like you, I hope Vossy can find a way to motivate, cajole or even flog these guys back into having some pride and self respect because the ramifications could be huge

 

[Hollow Knight]

Do you think that in our current frame of mind and state that we could successfully carry out ANY game plan with success?

Chicken/egg situation for me.... fail to execute the gameplan -> -> bad football -> bad result -> confidence drops -> fail to execute the gameplan

Lather, rinse, repeat.

By the end of the game we appeared to be playing man-on-man completely. That to me signals that the gameplan was abandoned. Clearly you can't execute the run and carry structures (which seems to be at the heart of our style) if you are allowing the opposition to dictate your positioning.

 

[Only Forwards]

Every week we are witnessing 6 players play their best games all year.

Can't say that I have seen many of your games so can only really comment on North.

The one game I did see parts of was round 1 and I reckon the doggies caught you a bit by surprise after your NAB cup win.

Confidence is a wonderful thing and I reckon that yours may have taken a bit of a dint that week. I hope you can get a bit back next week vs Melbourne. Have a lot of time for the Lions, Fitzroy would have been my second side as a kid.

 

[Pancho Gonzales]

It's hard to tell, but it seems like our coaches react SO slowly to the game. When north were piling on the goals we didn't even have a spare man most of the time, yet somehow had nobody in our forward line either. Where were our players?!

From where I was sitting (up until I left in disgust), it seemed like we were playing a plus 1 in defense while North kept their plus 1 at the contest. Terrible plan as we kept getting beaten at the stoppages / clearances and our extra defender - be it Adcock, Golby or Harwood - just didn't show enough want to get to defensive contests or fill in dangerous space allowing North's forwards to make clear leads at their ball carriers.

 

[Pancho Gonzales]

Chicken/egg situation for me.... fail to execute the gameplan -> -> bad football -> bad result -> confidence drops -> fail to execute the gameplan

Lather, rinse, repeat.

By the end of the game we appeared to be playing man-on-man completely. That to me signals that the gameplan was abandoned. Clearly you can't execute the run and carry structures (which seems to be at the heart of our style) if you are allowing the opposition to dictate your positioning.

For me, this is where the coach has to be held to account. Watching Thomas outpoint Harwood made me question Ryan's ability - I can only imagine the young man did the same. Play blokes where they can try and get some confidence; if that's in the reserves then so be it. It's worked in footy for over 100 years now.

 

[Judge]

Terrible:
Josh Green - Made too many basic errors and didn't put his body on the line.
Niall McKeever - Not the right option. Get Cornelius in and leave him there.
Stefan Martin - Looked out of sorts.
Daniel Merrett - Too frustrated and well beaten by multiple opponents.
Patrick Karnezis - No influence on the game.

Average:
Jon Brown - Didn't get a lot of help with the delivery, but looks slow and tired.
Jack Redden - Crude bump will see him miss a few weeks.
Dayne Zorko - Not kicking enough goals at the moment. Needs to lift.
Brent Moloney - Didn't get enough of the ball to have an impact.
Pearce Hanley - Burnt the ball early then subbed out.
Daniel Rich - Looked to be working his butt off, but was always in the wrong spot.
Sam Docherty - Didn't notice him a lot, but used the ball okay.
Ryan Harwood - Okay in his 1st game back.
Mitch Golby - Showed improvement.
Andrew Raines - Probably didn't shut down Wells enough.

Good:
Marco Paparone - Did enough to suggest he will be a reasonable player.
Matt Leuenberger - Happy with his effort against the big Jew.
Rohan Bewick - Looked slick when in possession and did some gutsy things.
Jed Adcock - Back to his best. Ran hard to create where others didn't.
Joel Patfull - Reliable as always.

Great:
Sam Mayes - Ball use is exceptional. Look forward to his future. Could be the pick of the top 10.
Tom Rockliff - Easily our best player on the ground.

Van, I'd like to say I'm with you on your assessment, but I'm not feeling it.....

 

[Jorgo]

Every week we are witnessing 6 players play their best games all year.

Unfortunately not for us

 

[Jorgo]

 

[kylegee28]

Terrible:
Josh Green - Made too many basic errors and didn't put his body on the line.
Niall McKeever - Not the right option. Get Cornelius in and leave him there.
Stefan Martin - Looked out of sorts.
Daniel Merrett - Too frustrated and well beaten by multiple opponents.
Patrick Karnezis - No influence on the game.

Average:
Jon Brown - Didn't get a lot of help with the delivery, but looks slow and tired.
Jack Redden - Crude bump will see him miss a few weeks.
Dayne Zorko - Not kicking enough goals at the moment. Needs to lift.
Brent Moloney - Didn't get enough of the ball to have an impact.
Pearce Hanley - Burnt the ball early then subbed out.
Daniel Rich - Looked to be working his butt off, but was always in the wrong spot.
Sam Docherty - Didn't notice him a lot, but used the ball okay.
Ryan Harwood - Okay in his 1st game back.
Mitch Golby - Showed improvement.
Andrew Raines - Probably didn't shut down Wells enough.

Good:
Marco Paparone - Did enough to suggest he will be a reasonable player.
Matt Leuenberger - Happy with his effort against the big Jew.
Rohan Bewick - Looked slick when in possession and did some gutsy things.
Jed Adcock - Back to his best. Ran hard to create where others didn't.
Joel Patfull - Reliable as always.

Great:
Sam Mayes - Ball use is exceptional. Look forward to his future. Could be the pick of the top 10.
Tom Rockliff - Easily our best player on the ground.

I Lol'ed

 

[Hollow Knight]

Hanley probably needs to rest that knee anyway.

 

[Dizzle]

The horrible truth is that the gap between our best and worse seems Grand Canyon-esque at the moment.
The only experienced players who can hold their heads high are Rockliff, Leuey and Hanley for mine, with Merrett, Patfull, Moloney and Bewick in tier 2 'adequate'. Hardly high praise.

The rest of the guys have a big 'needs improvement' next to them. At least some of the 1-3 year players can realistically aspire to get better. Can someone tell me who stole Ash McGrath's game? Is Browny really going to give us 1 good game from 4? If so then this is his last year also, and if you think Blacky wants to go around again with a sub .500 team in 2014 then scrap that thought right now.

Stakes and Black should help, but really unless the 18 odd players producing well below their best lift their game like now, we'll be the team every forward looks forward to playing for the rest of the year. I've joked for years that our slogan should be "The Lions, helping average players to career highs since 2005" (Q Lynch, Milne, Betts, Medhurst etc). I kinda hoped we were beyond that, but Lindsay Thomas flopped about like a wet fish and laughed himself to 4 goals.

Unlike others I haven't given up, but we simply cannot allow another game like that to blot the history books in 2013. If we do we should take a big Artline to the NAB cup and mark it with an asterisk denoting "Won in the year no-one else gave a s**t".

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

Chicken/egg situation for me.... fail to execute the gameplan -> -> bad football -> bad result -> confidence drops -> fail to execute the gameplan

Lather, rinse, repeat.

By the end of the game we appeared to be playing man-on-man completely. That to me signals that the gameplan was abandoned. Clearly you can't execute the run and carry structures (which seems to be at the heart of our style) if you are allowing the opposition to dictate your positioning.

Felt more like the tumble dryer on Sunday.

 

[lukiuslion]

I was at the game yesterday and it was just plain embarrassing for players, coaches and supporters. I cant really identify where it went so wrong, but from the start of the game the whole team had a very Lax vibe during the warm up. I said to my Uncle, "take a look and just watch the lack of talk and hand slapping going on", it was all just casual pot shots for goal. There was none of that - getting in a huddle and bashing each other around, or yelling amongst each other, the body language was terrible, like there was no belief and no sense of team. We then through up the white flag with in minutes of the game starting. So little effort from so many players, people just wandering off their man with their hands on their hips, then when the Roos arrested the ball from us, it was off and over the top and the Roo's has multiple targets while our Guys half heartedly ran with a "oh s**t thats my man" look on our face. At one point I screamed "MOVE.. FOR GOD SAKE... SOMEBODY MOVE!", we had the ball on the wing and our entire team just stood there, Brownie included, we didn't want the contest. I honestly have not seen so little effort from a Micheal Voss team, sure - worse loses, but he always has in the past managed to get effort out of the team. this should have been 100+ points.

The Good - Nothing, the first gamers played well because everyone else was so terrible, I'd rather judge them on a game where we had solid contributors across the ground. None the less, Mayes kicking is elite and pap looks solid.

The Bad - The overall lack of interest, accountability, passion for the jumper was horrifying - it was a despicable performance.

The Ugly - see Above.

Last year we played a zone up until the magpies smashed us at home and from the point, the next week againts GWS, we played man on man for the rest of the year, our zone is flaky and the players don't understand how it works, and have no confidence in it. We seem to change and switch from a zone to a half zone.. to a I dont know what! until we re-find some form, we need to go back to Man on man to save our season. Our lack luster zone just leaked goal after goal up until half time yesterday.

Also, one last thing, can anybody suggest what might have gone on off field to make alot of players appear disenfranchised all of a sudden? could it be selection issues, i.e. - Martin over Lisle

 

[BigBadBrisbaneBears]

Terrible:
Josh Green - Made too many basic errors and didn't put his body on the line.
Niall McKeever - Not the right option. Get Cornelius in and leave him there.
Stefan Martin - Looked out of sorts.
Daniel Merrett - Too frustrated and well beaten by multiple opponents.
Patrick Karnezis - No influence on the game.

Average:
Jon Brown - Didn't get a lot of help with the delivery, but looks slow and tired.
Jack Redden - Crude bump will see him miss a few weeks.
Dayne Zorko - Not kicking enough goals at the moment. Needs to lift.
Brent Moloney - Didn't get enough of the ball to have an impact.
Pearce Hanley - Burnt the ball early then subbed out.
Daniel Rich - Looked to be working his butt off, but was always in the wrong spot.
Sam Docherty - Didn't notice him a lot, but used the ball okay.
Ryan Harwood - Okay in his 1st game back.
Mitch Golby - Showed improvement.
Andrew Raines - Probably didn't shut down Wells enough.

Good:
Marco Paparone - Did enough to suggest he will be a reasonable player.
Matt Leuenberger - Happy with his effort against the big Jew.
Rohan Bewick - Looked slick when in possession and did some gutsy things.
Jed Adcock - Back to his best. Ran hard to create where others didn't.
Joel Patfull - Reliable as always.

Great:
Sam Mayes - Ball use is exceptional. Look forward to his future. Could be the pick of the top 10.
Tom Rockliff - Easily our best player on the ground.

I want to thank you Mr Von .... I didn't hink anything about yesterday's game could make me laugh, but your effort is a cracker!

 

[dane000]

thought Karnezis was quite vocal

 

[WhiteLionFeva]

I was at the game yesterday and it was just plain embarrassing for players, coaches and supporters. I cant really identify where it went so wrong, but from the start of the game the whole team had a very Lax vibe during the warm up. I said to my Uncle, "take a look and just watch the lack of talk and hand slapping going on", it was all just casual pot shots for goal. There was none of that - getting in a huddle and bashing each other around, or yelling amongst each other, the body language was terrible, like there was no belief and no sense of team. We then through up the white flag with in minutes of the game starting. So little effort from so many players, people just wandering off their man with their hands on their hips, then when the Roos arrested the ball from us, it was off and over the top and the Roo's has multiple targets while our Guys half heartedly ran with a "oh s**t thats my man" look on our face. .
/quote]
I didn't read a lot into it at the time but the vibe at Saturday's training was about the same. Laid back to the point of dozey. Some voice but no real energy. I put it down to the fact that these sessions interstate are usually about getting the legs moving and acclimatising. But the way they started is frankly pretty much the way training finished. Others who watch training regularly may take a different perspective but when I think back to how the sides from 2001 to 2004 trained in Melbourne, and not just at finals time, they are like chalk and cheese. Even their short sessions were loud as I recall.
It makes me a bit uneasy when someone says after a game (as happened earlier this year) that training was lacking energy or spark or whatever. If that is the case, what are the assistant coaches doing for their money. Shouldn't they be the ones getting amongst the group and firing them up? Bit late after the event.

 

[lukiuslion]

Looks like we have won the NAB cup, had a big old party, and now its time to kick back and enjoy the sunshine. I can't believe they have been allowed to adopt this attitude, this was supposed to be our year - I can only assume, they must not really care for sucsess. There are 14 or so players that are SAFE at the selection table, I think its time they became 'unsafe'.. Im not sure how else Voss can wake up the playing group. Mark harvey looks pretty uninterested too, strolling along with his chewing gum.

 

[Hollow Knight]

Mark harvey looks pretty uninterested too, strolling along with his chewing gum.

I think people pick and choose with these sort of assessments.

If we were 4-0, we'd probably be praising Harvey, based on the same footage, for his calm, relaxed approach to coaching which is clearly getting the best out of players.

Watch training if you can. Harvey gets stuck into them when they slack off.

 

[lukiuslion]

And yes - I blame the coaches for this happening. they are supposed to set standeds and motivate the players. clearly they are not doing their job.

 

[maggotman]

As an incredibly patient and loyal Melbourne based supporter that attends every game down here (few and far between I might add), I have been very used to seeing us get a belting from a whole gamete of bottom four through to top four teams over the last 300 years. What I am not used to and can not accept is lack of effort, laziness and stupidity. The rubbish I witnessed on Sunday and against the dog turds in round 1 was much worse than any effort I have seen over the last 2 years:

I don't even pretend to know the intricacies of the game as well as others however I'll put my 2 Bahts worth in:

Ugly:

Structure. Forget Structure without a solid game plan that has a plan B when scutters goes wrong. We need a new GAME PLAN and smart decision making like what I saw us playing in the DRAB cup. As far as I can tell no one as yet has discussed this clusterf*#! aspect of our game in this thread (happy to be corrected).

On the rare occasion that we managed to get the ball from defence (that's where most of the game was played) it became glaringly obvious that our forward push from the back-line involved only one thing and that is to avoid the corridor at all costs.
Every forward thrust involved guys fumbling around like limbless Parkinson's sufferers under intense pressure on the boundary line which created throw ins or turnovers. I was paying particular attention to this so am very qualified to say that it had absolutely nothing to do with lack of options in the centre of the ground. On numerous occasions I saw anywhere up to four unmarked lions players literally standing around (Don't get me started on lack of run here) doing nothing in the centre square that could have been utilized. Now I can't be sure what the reason for this was, but I will have a crack at it anyway.
Either they were just standing around in the center of the ground due to laziness and not wanting to implement or understanding our new hug the boundary game style (born of dumb footy) that everyone else was playing OR they were continuously expecting the forward attack to be facilitated through the corridor and thus were still playing the outdated pre-season game plan that bothered the opposition a bit more.
This boundary hugging rubbish was quantified by the rare marks that poor old Brownie had to manufacture at acute angles to the goals in the forward pocket. Dumb footy.

Bad:

I took several friends to this game in the Medallion Club and one of my mates could not believe how poor our decision making was when there were so many better options available. That's all for that. Sorry for the extended rant.

I am going to single out in my opinion our most overrated mid here because he really pisses me off even though he has talent. I am prepared for the repercussions:

Rich.
Another thing my friend noticed which I also notice in every game i see Rich play live is that he seems to be everywhere the ball goes but has absolutely nothing to do with it and never gets his hands dirty. My mate (Hawks supporter) was like 'hey, who's the guy with the surfy hair do? He is everywhere but doesn't seem to ever touch the ball...'. I can clearly see that Rich is waiting for the receive from pack that never comes and therefore he becomes redundant regardless of a tag. He might as well dive in and try to get his own ball or piss off to CHF where he might have more impact. I think we as supporters have been rating both him and Redden more highly than perhaps they deserve. These two players are so worrying to me.

Good:

First and second gamers. Hope Mayes sticks around for a while.

So much more to discuss but I don't have 300 years!!!

Rhino

 

[Lockie]

So

Rich squibbed a contest early on in the game and doesn't run anywhere near hard enough. Too often he just hangs around the back of a pack standing like fielder in the slips waiting for the cheap give.

---------------------------------

I thought Rich tried his guts out yesterday. Your right he does often stay on the back of the pack but isn't his role really one of a deliverer? He can't do everything! He is getting tagged and I think he is still dealing with that aspect of his game but I thought he was one of the better players in a crap game.

One of the biggest things from yesterday was the lack of leadership and talking. I was sitting three rows from the front and other than some swearing when the players came off onto the interchange bench, there was very little talking and calling to each other etc. A couple of times when we got run down from behind there was no calling out to players etc.