Autopsy Round 6, 2024: St Kilda v Western Bulldogs

[phantom13]

I’ll argue with anyone on this board about how we have pretty much failed Max since we drafted him.

He was plonked in the forward 50 with absolutely no support, he’s been our lone key fwd since the day he was drafted. Membrey isn’t a key forward, we could have honestly done with a Ben Brown who was available and credit to Melbourne for filling that hole.

Six years later and we still haven’t addressed our lack of key forward experience, we seriously need to target some assistance there as much as we do sorting out our midfield issues.

It’s Max or bust almost. That’s not fair on him.

We win, it’s all ok, we lose, Max needs to be better.

Oscar Allen had the luxury of coming through the ranks with Kennedy and Darling. Naughton and JUH have each other as a chop out, then they can rotate Darcy/English/Lobb through to stretch defences as they did last night.

Hawkins/Cameron, Hipwood/Daniher, Curnow/Mckay, Hogan/Cadman, Walker/Fogarty, Dixon/Marshall.

Laugh at Casboult all you like but I reckon Ben King would have loved him taking one of the tall defenders.

Max has been on his lonesome since he started here, double if not triple teamed. Get his ******* brother through that door or let’s just have this same conversation for the next 5 seasons.

I actually agree with you completely on this and I’d argue it’s the strongest reason to keep Camma.

 

[gringo2011]

Funnily enough Gring

King in 24
6.6 and 50 disposals in 4 games (1.5 goals and 12.5 touches)

Camma in 24
6.4 and 35 disposals in 3 games (1.5 goals and 9 touches)

The glaring difference to me.

One has 2 tackles totals for the season and one has 7 (King has more marks and Camma more hit outs too)

Hammer chases too. I saw him running after players and chasing way outside 50 when he had every right to leave it to others. King would have been standing sulking with his hands on hips.

 

[gringo2011]

I’ll argue with anyone on this board about how we have pretty much failed Max since we drafted him.

He was plonked in the forward 50 with absolutely no support, he’s been our lone key fwd since the day he was drafted. Membrey isn’t a key forward, we could have honestly done with a Ben Brown who was available and credit to Melbourne for filling that hole.

Six years later and we still haven’t addressed our lack of key forward experience, we seriously need to target some assistance there as much as we do sorting out our midfield issues.

It’s Max or bust almost. That’s not fair on him.

We win, it’s all ok, we lose, Max needs to be better.

Oscar Allen had the luxury of coming through the ranks with Kennedy and Darling. Naughton and JUH have each other as a chop out, then they can rotate Darcy/English/Lobb through to stretch defences as they did last night.

Hawkins/Cameron, Hipwood/Daniher, Curnow/Mckay, Hogan/Cadman, Walker/Fogarty, Dixon/Marshall.

Laugh at Casboult all you like but I reckon Ben King would have loved him taking one of the tall defenders.

Max has been on his lonesome since he started here, double if not triple teamed. Get his ******* brother through that door or let’s just have this same conversation for the next 5 seasons.

Also taught him bad habits and put the weight of the world on him. Joe Daniher 2.0.

 

[joe444]

We can blame short breaks between games for some sluggish efforts

Just intruding to point out that the Bulldogs had played three games in 12 days. St Kilda three games in 11.

 

[gringo2011]

Our list is ordinary and stretched by injury. Last year guys like Crouch and Wood papered some cracks over. We cut experienced depth in Gresham and Billings types to bring through youth and lost the depth replacements in Henry and Dow. We will be a mid table side with a full list available but playing kids is our best chance at proper improvement. Should play as many kids as possible and try to get a top 4 pick.

 

[mighty_sainters]

I actually agree with you completely on this and I’d argue it’s the strongest reason to keep Camma.

If Caminiti is the answer and it’s the long term partnership solution I’m completely with you.

But he was plucked from nowhere last minute, if we want to be ready made top 4 team in two years time he may not be the answer.

My point is, King can’t be the sole key forward for our team. I’m not putting Sharman or Membrey in that category, they spend more time up the wing than they do deep forward 50.

I definitely have rose coloured glasses on for King which I acknowledge, but that’s because I feel like we’ve given him a horrible development plan since the day he walked through the door.

Is he perfect, far from it. But wouldn’t it be nice if he had support where every game wasn’t decided by his performance. Only Max and Higgins are capable of kicking a bag on their day.

 

[Saint Shags]

Case in point re over inflating our kids
Pou isn’t a star and I dare say if his contract wasn’t up …he’d be in the two’s
Stop dreaming people
He may come good but we don’t have 7 years to work out he may also be another Billing’s …

Starting to get the same vibes that we did from Gresham last year. Just feels like he might not be around come the end of the year. Could be wrong but wouldn't be surprised if it happened.

I'll say it again. I really feel like that email from the Pres on Wednesday was telling us to be prepared.
This year isn't looking rosy.
Free agents are looking unlikely.
Outside of the Pies game I think the closeness of some really papered over some giant cracks.
We've played a number of teams this year that have plenty of inexperience on their teams. Even last night the Dogs had 8 with under 50 games played. The week before GWS had 9. The week before that Tigers had 10.
I look at the next slab of games and there are danger signs.

 

[Mat Mann]

I've realised that if you count Friday as a normal working day and ignore that game last night, then the weekend mood won't be ruined.

denial is they key

 

[phantom13]

If Caminiti is the answer and it’s the long term partnership solution I’m completely with you.

But he was plucked from nowhere last minute, if we want to be ready made top 4 team in two years time he may not be the answer.

My point is, King can’t be the sole key forward for our team. I’m not putting Sharman or Membrey in that category, they spend more time up the wing than they do deep forward 50.

I definitely have rose coloured glasses on for King which I acknowledge, but that’s because I feel like we’ve given him a horrible development plan since the day he walked through the door.

Is he perfect, far from it. But wouldn’t it be nice if he had support where every game wasn’t decided by his performance. Only Max and Higgins are capable of kicking a bag on their day.

I think it’s Camma or Hayes (they both can’t play in the same team) or else tear the whole thing down and start again.

Realistically who could you get as a second forward without selling the farm as a second tall/second ruck?

We were throwing out Lobb the other day ffs. I’d take Camma on one leg over that fop.

 

[Mat Mann]

Just intruding to point out that the Bulldogs had played three games in 12 days. St Kilda three games in 11.

2 games at Marvel where we went 2 interstate trips

 

[Tyrian Lonestar]

If Caminiti is the answer and it’s the long term partnership solution I’m completely with you.

But he was plucked from nowhere last minute, if we want to be ready made top 4 team in two years time he may not be the answer.

My point is, King can’t be the sole key forward for our team. I’m not putting Sharman or Membrey in that category, they spend more time up the wing than they do deep forward 50.

I definitely have rose coloured glasses on for King which I acknowledge, but that’s because I feel like we’ve given him a horrible development plan since the day he walked through the door.

Is he perfect, far from it. But wouldn’t it be nice if he had support where every game wasn’t decided by his performance. Only Max and Higgins are capable of kicking a bag on their day.

Camaniti Keeler Sharman has potential

If we're going to give Keeler a go anytime soon. Keep playing like this and season will he shot in 2 weeks so it will be all about the kids & drafting.

PS: and hoping Crows flop given we have their R2 pick

 

[phantom13]

2 games at Marvel where we went 2 interstate trips

Adelaide and Canberra… can’t remember having too much jet leg from hour long flights

 

[Miha]

Nobody is really pinning this just on the 11 day break anyway, we’re just s**t

 

[Browny2Carlisle]

Until we see Owens training as a permanent midfielder there’s no point watching games.
He needs to be in there getting the ball and getting his touch back.

The King bashing is ridiculous. He’s probably our most important player when it comes to marking and score involvements. I don’t care that caminiti tackles more. He wouldn’t have to tackle if he marked a ball and his field kicking and decision making is awful. King often gets up field, provides a mark and nails an important pass to another forward. It’s upto the small forwards to stop thinking they are Wayne Carey and start crumbing and pressuring.

We have massive issues in the middle and forward which can be greatly approved simply by making some positional changes. I don’t know why we refuse to do it.

GET YOUR CONTESTED PLAYERS IN THE CONTEST.

 

[Saint Shags]

2 games at Marvel where we went 2 interstate trips

So we went interstate one more than they did.
The flight takes just over an hour.

 

[kyrgios]

When we beat Port next Friday all this will be forgotten. Our season starts next week. We will be in the 8 by round 14.


*bookmark this.

 

[luca77]

The sun rises, and we've got a footy-free weekend ahead of us Sainters! Sorry, but long-ish post ahead.

First of all I wanna say thank you and well done to the supporters who stayed to the end last night. It was surprising and impressive that some noise was made when we kicked a few late ones.

Last night isn't where we're at as a club. It wasn't where the dogs are at either. Bombers have been a different team from week to week. Freo look good and look garbage at times. This is what happens when teams like GWS have a 2nd team full of first rounders, while middle of the road clubs are struggling to field a first team of AFL ready/quality players, especially early in the season and when injuries/suspensions hit.

I watched the replay last night, and you rarely see professional athletes fail to catch a sports-ball or distribute it past the opposition player directly in front of them the way we did last night. We just weren't up for the heat in the kitchen. They say you play like you train, and I think that's true for younger players - which is part of the problem with the short break. The training probably lacks intensity, and is more focused on recovery. Guys like Steele and Hill can manage it, and did. Windhager has had a lighter schedule and was fine. Dogs have plenty of top quality, experienced players, and had the fire lit under them.

What I don't really get is the "our season is wasted" response. Yeah, losing sucks, watching it sucks - but we all know we need to get kids in, and this is easier done when you don't make the eight. We will be much better if/when we get Dow, Henry, Crouch, King, Webster, even a fit and firing Butler into this side. Owens, Matteus, Nas will refind their mojo. Wins will come, and other teams won't be on like Donkey Kong every week against us.

As for trades, Membrey's 29 now, but would still help a team like Melbourne or Freo. We wouldn't get much, but we have to develop Sharman and Caminiti in their natural roles. Any offers for our players over 28 or so need to be considered, but the fact is that without Hill/Marshall/Steele we would be getting smashed and zero chance of any decent players coming our way. Need to keep our current top draft picks - better the devil you know, and they've got plenty of upside.

That'll do for now, but things are nowhere near as bad as they seem this morning, and we need steady heads running the show with murky Tassie waters ahead.

 

[The_Snake26]

I usually wait a few days before I post so the emotion has been removed. But that was as pea hearted an effort that I’ve seen in years.
They had:
75 more disposals
22 more tackles
74 more marks (bang on double)
There’s only one thing this comes down to: effort. We gave absolutely none. Our other losses this year have been from lack of skills, not lack of effort.
3 games in 11 days, they’ve had 3 in 12. So that’s no excuse.
These are finely tuned athletes that get paid huge money to be fit and have access to the best recovery and sports science available.
Garcia in his second game laid 20% of our total tackles. He’s going to be a ripper.
Thought Hill tried hard all night to run and create.
Wilson was good angain and he gets a pass for being a newbie.
Windy tried hard. Bonner was ok.
Watching live they murdered us on the spread. They sent one player to get the ball while the others spread, we sent 3 blokes to tackle their 1 and they waltzed it away.
Our forward line was ordinary but most of our kick ins were dumps. The few times we actually kicked to advantage it was lead out and marked. It’s up to the forwards to make the most of their opportunities. We’re not a 20 goal side. We’re a 12 goal team at best so we have to make them count.

We are devoid of leadership. We lack a player that picks up a team and says come with me. Dunno where it’s going to come from

 

[Cairnsman]

Who recognised we were about to enter a hard rebuild when Lyon returned?

Thought it was fairly obvious he’d been given the mandate by Bassett but for PR and marketing reason the narrative was anything but the truth and for obvious reason, it’s why the majority of our fans were completely dismissive of pretty much all of the the AFL world predicting we would slide this year, some fans even thought we would rise to top 4.

The problem with PR men running a footy club is they have a job for both occasions, first the sales pitch, then the damage control. Bassetts bi-annual letters to fans seam to follow this pattern.

 

[SteeleSaints]

Adelaide and Canberra… can’t remember having too much jet leg from hour long flights

Its not an excuse, but its more the turn around til they get home to bed.

I will keep banging on about our fatigue levels, but I wholely blame our over the top training regime for all our issues eg fatigue, injuries and subsequent results. The club has no one to blame but themselves.

 

[botts]

Just intruding to point out that the Bulldogs had played three games in 12 days. St Kilda three games in 11.

Off you fcuk

 

[Pakenhamsaint]

Who recognised we were about to enter a hard rebuild when Lyon returned?

Thought it was fairly obvious he’d been given the mandate by Bassett but for PR and marketing reason the narrative was anything but the truth and for obvious reason, it’s why the majority of our fans were completely dismissive of pretty much all of the the AFL world predicting we would slide this year, some fans even thought we would rise to top 4.

The problem with PR men running a footy club is they have a job for both occasions, first the sales pitch, then the damage control. Bassetts bi-annual letters to fans seam to follow this pattern.

A rebuild would simply not be accepted by the fanbase.
Making finals last year the fanbase says finals is the bare minimum

 

[phantom13]

Its not an excuse, but its more the turn around til they get home to bed.

I will keep banging on about our fatigue levels, but I wholely blame our over the top training regime for all our issues eg fatigue, injuries and subsequent results. The club has no one to blame but themselves.

I get it... but if its not an excuse it seems pointless to raise it.

 

[phantom13]

Who recognised we were about to enter a hard rebuild when Lyon returned?

Thought it was fairly obvious he’d been given the mandate by Bassett but for PR and marketing reason the narrative was anything but the truth and for obvious reason, it’s why the majority of our fans were completely dismissive of pretty much all of the the AFL world predicting we would slide this year, some fans even thought we would rise to top 4.

The problem with PR men running a footy club is they have a job for both occasions, first the sales pitch, then the damage control. Bassetts bi-annual letters to fans seam to follow this pattern.

Weird choice to win 3 of our last 4 and make finals for a "hard rebuild".

I think everyone knew Ross would take a year to assess and then change the list etc and i think Ross knows he doesnt get 3/4 to do that in modern AFL.

We all thought soft rebuild sure but if we needed to bottom out why didnt it start last year, Ross knew what he had coming in and if he didnt then hes not the right guy.

 

[Saint Shags]

A rebuild would simply not be accepted by the fanbase.
Making finals last year the fanbase says finals is the bare minimum

I think we were blinded by the great start we had last year.
Had we not been as successful in those opening rounds I think that the realisation about where our strengths/weaknesses of both our list and coaching group would have been seen more fully. Think that by making finals last year a lot of us, myself included, thought that finals should again be an aim. Now its whether or not finishing mid table will actually be a positive or a negative.