Read about what the "Keepers of the Code" in one football sport are prepared to do. The South Pacific is Australia`s backyard.
Goto http://www.planetrugby.com/News/story_45181.shtml
Goto http://www.planetrugby.com/News/story_45181.shtml
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Rugby Union to spend big in South Pacific
- Thread starter Kokoda
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They are lucky they have the money to spend. Our keeper of the code does not have that kind of cash on hand.
- May 24, 2004
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Add to that fact that Pacific Nations contribute far more to the financial health of Rugby Union than they do to Aussie Rules (through making up numbers at the World Cups & 7s Series, and also by providing large numbers of professional players to leagues in Europe) and it's surprising that the IRB hadn't invested heavily in the Pacific nations before this.
As far as the new investments could affect Aussie Rules, I imagine Canada, Japan, the USA, Argentina and Chile (where Aussie Rules and Rugby are minor sports competing against one-another) will shape more as battlegrounds. The Pacific nations are already very much Rugby Union strongholds, and the development funds will be more focused on high-performance programs to increase their competitiveness at the top level than at broadening the participation base.
Having said that, there is a need for the AFL to invest in our 'neighbourhood', as Asia-Pacific countries already have some of the development tools in place (AFL TV exposure, low cost airfares to Australia, Australian business & expat connections). I think that the blueprint for such development needs to be the link between AFL Queensland and AFL-PNG. Such a link allows AFL-PNG to use the development pathways and experience of the AFLQ's professional administration, and gives AFL-PNG a powerful supporter within the Australian football structure.
If similar systems could be put in place for the Solomon Islands (under AFLQ), Samoa, Tonga (perhaps both under NZAFL) and NZ (perhaps under AFL-NSW or AFL-ACT), it'd provide a massive boost to Aussie Rules across the Pacific, and possibly would boost the game here by feeding talented players through the domestic development systems.
As far as the new investments could affect Aussie Rules, I imagine Canada, Japan, the USA, Argentina and Chile (where Aussie Rules and Rugby are minor sports competing against one-another) will shape more as battlegrounds. The Pacific nations are already very much Rugby Union strongholds, and the development funds will be more focused on high-performance programs to increase their competitiveness at the top level than at broadening the participation base.
Having said that, there is a need for the AFL to invest in our 'neighbourhood', as Asia-Pacific countries already have some of the development tools in place (AFL TV exposure, low cost airfares to Australia, Australian business & expat connections). I think that the blueprint for such development needs to be the link between AFL Queensland and AFL-PNG. Such a link allows AFL-PNG to use the development pathways and experience of the AFLQ's professional administration, and gives AFL-PNG a powerful supporter within the Australian football structure.
If similar systems could be put in place for the Solomon Islands (under AFLQ), Samoa, Tonga (perhaps both under NZAFL) and NZ (perhaps under AFL-NSW or AFL-ACT), it'd provide a massive boost to Aussie Rules across the Pacific, and possibly would boost the game here by feeding talented players through the domestic development systems.
- Thread starter
- #4
Like the ideas to link up with AFLQ and NZAFL.
Leading on from that I think the NZ and PNG U16 and U18`s national teams will eventually play in Division 2 in the Aust Championships. (By that time QLD will be in Div1.) Have to give those juniors something to aim for. Will be easier to draft into AFL from that set up.
The Maffra team travelling to NZ was a big step forward. That is one way to lift the standards between the International Cups. But it all costs money.
Leading on from that I think the NZ and PNG U16 and U18`s national teams will eventually play in Division 2 in the Aust Championships. (By that time QLD will be in Div1.) Have to give those juniors something to aim for. Will be easier to draft into AFL from that set up.
The Maffra team travelling to NZ was a big step forward. That is one way to lift the standards between the International Cups. But it all costs money.
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There are some government supported alternatives in place:
AusAid runs the Australian Youth Ambassadors for Development (AYAD) program which is an excellent initiative for placing young Australians (18-30 y.o.) for up to 12 months in a development capacity in many of the Asia and the Pacific rim countries.
The IAFC have been sending people to Tonga for the last two years and the AFL has placed a fellow in Samoa in the last year. From all reports, these ambassadors are making great grounds in getting the game into schools and setting up/running grass-roots civil and school competitions.
Samoan schoolboys host Tongan schoolboys international friendly
Samoan schools tournament
Tongan scholarship program
Applications were recently made for the Solomon Islands and an investigation made into Vanuatu without success. The primary problem is that there needs to be some presence of the sport in the country or an established recognised organisation must be willing to locally support the ambassadors. In addition, it is difficult to find a effective local counterpart. In the case of the Solomon Islands, the criteria has been very strict.
The extension of the program into Asia is an exciting development with the prospects of AYAD personnel commencing in countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand and even China!
AusAid runs the Australian Youth Ambassadors for Development (AYAD) program which is an excellent initiative for placing young Australians (18-30 y.o.) for up to 12 months in a development capacity in many of the Asia and the Pacific rim countries.
The IAFC have been sending people to Tonga for the last two years and the AFL has placed a fellow in Samoa in the last year. From all reports, these ambassadors are making great grounds in getting the game into schools and setting up/running grass-roots civil and school competitions.
Samoan schoolboys host Tongan schoolboys international friendly
Samoan schools tournament
Tongan scholarship program
Applications were recently made for the Solomon Islands and an investigation made into Vanuatu without success. The primary problem is that there needs to be some presence of the sport in the country or an established recognised organisation must be willing to locally support the ambassadors. In addition, it is difficult to find a effective local counterpart. In the case of the Solomon Islands, the criteria has been very strict.
The extension of the program into Asia is an exciting development with the prospects of AYAD personnel commencing in countries like Vietnam, Malaysia, Thailand and even China!
- May 24, 2004
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But the AFL doesn't have the 30 million pounds the IRB if throwing at global rugby development. All that money comes from WC profits and TV rights in Europe....
monnersfan said:
The IRB is spending something in the vicinty of 68 mill quid over the next three years, with the objective of raising standards in the game amongst the tier 2 nations, (tier 2 defined currently as Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, USA, Canada, Japan). They are also spending money on tier 3 development with the objective of raising a number of satelite countries to tier 2 status, Los Teros (Uruguay) for example.
Rugby's future is as an international game, AFL is very much aussie dominated. Not sure where they can take the game worldwide, as no one looks to be anywhere near having the structures to match the aussie teams.
- Thread starter
- #9
Originally posted by SoCalled
Rugby's future is as an international game, AFL is very much aussie dominated. Not sure where they can take the game worldwide, as no one looks to be anywhere near having the structures to match the aussie teams.
Rugby has had a long period of time to establish itself Internationally. Aussie Rules has been travelling Internationally about 10/15 years only driven by a group of very determined expats.
However the 10 team 2005 IC is proof that our game can grow from a nil base.
I will be very interested in reading what observers at this Cup think of the playing standard -best and worse.
We used to discuss this point a lot on this forum. Was once rated about D grade Vic Amateurs after the 2002 Cup. Has it improved in 2005??
The playing standard basically will decide when say a U23 Aussie team joins this comp in the long term future.
Rugby's future is as an international game, AFL is very much aussie dominated. Not sure where they can take the game worldwide, as no one looks to be anywhere near having the structures to match the aussie teams.
Rugby has had a long period of time to establish itself Internationally. Aussie Rules has been travelling Internationally about 10/15 years only driven by a group of very determined expats.
However the 10 team 2005 IC is proof that our game can grow from a nil base.
I will be very interested in reading what observers at this Cup think of the playing standard -best and worse.
We used to discuss this point a lot on this forum. Was once rated about D grade Vic Amateurs after the 2002 Cup. Has it improved in 2005??
The playing standard basically will decide when say a U23 Aussie team joins this comp in the long term future.
Dude aren't trying to say anything against Aussie Rules, which l also enjoy watching. Was just making the point that the IRB are pouring money into rugby to improve international standings.
Maybe Aussie Rules needs a few more "test matches" ? Shouldn't be that hard to organise a Revolution vs Falcon 3 test series
Maybe Aussie Rules needs a few more "test matches" ? Shouldn't be that hard to organise a Revolution vs Falcon 3 test series
- Thread starter
- #11
Good idea about the Test series but no money available.
The AFL which roughly is the equiv to the IRB is spending Internationally only for junior development where it thinks it can get the best return for its outlay.
In case you dont know those countries are South Africa-PNG -New Zealand.
The AFL which roughly is the equiv to the IRB is spending Internationally only for junior development where it thinks it can get the best return for its outlay.
In case you dont know those countries are South Africa-PNG -New Zealand.
- May 24, 2004
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And I don't think there's many problems with the AFL spending its development money in PNG, NZ and SA. The AFL needs to justify its investments to a wide range of stakeholders (clubs, supporters etc) and it would be foolish to invest in a dozen countries without first testing the water. AFL international development is still in its relative infancy and it'll be a few more years before the AFL can see the fruits of its investments over the last decade in PNG, NZ and SA and decide whether spending in other countries is justified.
- Thread starter
- #13
I was wondering about the playing standard in the Cup earlier on this thread - because after all that is one of the main points of interest.
The crew at WFN have reported that Kevin Sheehan AFL chief of recruiting and the draft said at Wangaratta- That ?? number of players in the NZ Falcons were good enough to play in the VFL.
As I understand it the VFL is a higher level than Vic D grade Amateurs????
Anybody want to comment how higher the standard was/is in their opinion.
The crew at WFN have reported that Kevin Sheehan AFL chief of recruiting and the draft said at Wangaratta- That ?? number of players in the NZ Falcons were good enough to play in the VFL.
As I understand it the VFL is a higher level than Vic D grade Amateurs????
Anybody want to comment how higher the standard was/is in their opinion.
Rugby Union would be atleast 20 times the size of AFL in Canada, Japan, USA, Argentina and Chile. Comparison is like chalk and cheese.monnersfan said:
Union has been played in the US for over 100 years.
International 'Football" Codes are as follows:
1. Soccer
2. Daylight
3. Rugby Union
4. Rugby League
5. Daylight
6. AFL
- May 24, 2004
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In an international sense, League isn't miles ahead of AFL, and League is definately not in the same bracket as Union.
League has for a long time benefited from the strength of Union internationally, and from the fact that Union players have easily been able to switch codes in the past to make up, or prop up, national sides. League only really has a dominant presence in North East Australia and PNG (which is very underdeveloped and doesn't contribute much to the sport), with minor code status in New Zealand and very-minor code status in England. Outside these nations, League's development is virtually at par with that of Australian football outside Australia. Though Aussie Rules doesn't yet have a large following outside this continent, it is far more widely played here and is alongside League in PNG, and growing steadily elsewhere. It isn't as internationally popular as Rugby Union, but neither is Rugby League. I'd suggest the 'Daylight' sits between Union and League on the ladder.
Also, I'm really happy that Aussie Rules doesn't hold world cups (like those of RL) where ethnic minority players like Rodan (Fiji), Michael (PNG) or anyone else with a non-Anglo name are co-opted to fill out "national" sides to compete against Australia. It does nothing for international development.
League has for a long time benefited from the strength of Union internationally, and from the fact that Union players have easily been able to switch codes in the past to make up, or prop up, national sides. League only really has a dominant presence in North East Australia and PNG (which is very underdeveloped and doesn't contribute much to the sport), with minor code status in New Zealand and very-minor code status in England. Outside these nations, League's development is virtually at par with that of Australian football outside Australia. Though Aussie Rules doesn't yet have a large following outside this continent, it is far more widely played here and is alongside League in PNG, and growing steadily elsewhere. It isn't as internationally popular as Rugby Union, but neither is Rugby League. I'd suggest the 'Daylight' sits between Union and League on the ladder.
Also, I'm really happy that Aussie Rules doesn't hold world cups (like those of RL) where ethnic minority players like Rodan (Fiji), Michael (PNG) or anyone else with a non-Anglo name are co-opted to fill out "national" sides to compete against Australia. It does nothing for international development.
- Banned
- #18
Tutaki said:
Nobody is in anyway trying to dispute that .
But we have history because we have change .
Remember Australian Football was played overseas , was known as Australasian Football and was the national game of New Zealand .
That's history , let's look at the future with some logic .
Rugby started at the same time as Cambridge Rules Football yet is a poor second to soccer .It gets a little spurt on every WC and has a strategy and some money in place . RU is going to benefit but it will struggle to burst out from it's old Empire confines . RL has lived off the back of RU to a large degree outside of Australia .It is a lot better represented Internationally than Australian Football obviously with GB and NZ but it's hampered by the differences in the top 3 countries and the fact that it drops away after that .
Australian Football is actually well positioned to advance for reasons that people used to criticise the game . Because we had no real representation before , all the new countries are on an equal footing . The current IC games are fantastic because of the closeness of the competition .And that is likely to remain in North America and Europe .The size of the game used to be a large barrier to expansion , but now teams are starting with a regular team and morphing into metro teams on small grounds or just starting with metro teams .We now have the International Series that well and truly dwarfs the RL tests crowd wise and IR has become a game in itself. We can even take lead from RU and establish a super league with an AFL team in NZ , RSA or PNG in the future .
It's a big "gunna" but the way some countries approach the game of Australian Football there are going to be results .
Tutaki said:
Exactly . And where has it progressed ?
Where is it likely to progress ? Staus quo anybody ?
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Yep - I agree - "the current IC games are fantastic"
Ya really gotta see it to believe it . . .
Make sure ya get there Sat . . . last chance till 2008
Ya really gotta see it to believe it . . .
Make sure ya get there Sat . . . last chance till 2008
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cos789 said:
cos Rugby in Northern America has seen significant growth over the last decade, based perhaps on the RWC gaining recognition in that area, and surprisingly the All Black brand name becoming recognised amongst the great unwashed.
Both Canada and the USA now boast National Leagues with additional franchises being added at a constant rate. The game has been taken into the college level in the US which is seeing a huge increase in the number of clubs springing up and affliating with the USARFU.
The recent inititive by the IRB is seeing the establishment of a Super Six competition for North America, involving 3 regional teams each from Canada and the USA. The Television rights to this competition have already been sold in both the USA and Canada proving there is a market for the game.
This isn't to say that Union is big business in North America. It pales in comparison to basketball, baseball, American Football, and Ice Hockey. Our own resource into new converts to the game shows North Americans are far more aware of S14 teams than their own local teams, this is gradually changing as US clubs are increasingly becoming Professional and marketing themselves.
So yes Union is progressing in North America while still remaining a minority sport. The last RWC saw huge increases in the "televised" audience in North America; that's the weird figure the IRB trots out which is in no way remotely near the actual viewing figure
There's lies and then there's statistics as the saying goes.Union has by and largely gone past it's empire origins with 120 countries currently aligned with the IRB. 80 Countries for example took part in last season's 7s World Circuit.
In short Union is expanding on all fronts, while still unable to leverage tier 2 and tier 3 teams upwards. Same problem as Aussie Rules faces internationally, how do you raise the standards in non traditional countries who have not had the benefit of a background in the game for over a century. Italy for example are showing signs year in and year out of improvement via taking part in 6 Nations.
Look, I really don't want to get into an "AFL vs Rugby League" thing. AFL is trying to increase internationally and I think that is great. I think everything sport should aspire to this.monnersfan said:
My only point is that AFL is not close to any of the other "football" codes.
Soccer speaks for itself, Union has grown out of sight in the last few years and is ahead of rugby league, no doubt. In saying that, Rugby League has also grown at an incredible rate over the past 5 years in which we have had crowds of 35,000 to a Student WC game in Taterstan, 30,000 to the Russia Vs USA game, 8,000 to Georgie Vs Serbia, sold-out match IN Lebanon for the match against France etc etc etc. 5 years ago it was Australia, NZ, England. We can now add USA, France, Wales, Ireland, Scotland, New Caledonia (in which the entire nation switched from Union to League), PNG, Serbia, Taterstan, Russia, Georgia, Tonga, Samoa, Fiji, Lebanon, Italy the list of genuine rugby league playing nations goes on
The amount of nations competing has increased 3-fold from that of 5 years. The only nation that I can say Im dissapointed in, is South Africa where RL is not even a minority sport.
All Ill finish on is that Im glad to see that AFL is trying to expand but I just don't think it can compare against a genuine international sport, which Im not saying rugby league is....................yet!
cos789 said:
I'd say Rugby Union isn't likely to make any progress in North America, certainly none worth talking about. Canadian or American sports fans who are even aware of rugby (who are a definite minority) think of it as an inferior sport we gave up years ago and in the case of Union they're dead right! Union is complicated, confusing and extremely technical and the unitiated will never invest the time needed to get a grasp of it.
cos789 said:
I'd say Rugby Union isn't likely to make any progress in North America, certainly none worth talking about. Canadian or American sports fans who are even aware of rugby (who are a definite minority) think of it as an inferior sport we gave up years ago and in the case of Union they're dead right! Union is complicated, confusing and extremely technical and the unitiated will never invest the time needed to get a grasp of it. Games often see teams turning the ball over **on purpose** and then try to win it back!! How stupid is that??
I don't know how anyone could be so wrong.monnersfan said:
I'd love to see how Aussie Rules is on par with RL in France. RL is semi-pro in france and will soon have a team in the fully professional european superleague.
Crowds of ten thousand plus watch rl games in PNG. Including a few of this years SP cup games. RL is the national sport of PNG. This is a description given from a touring amateur team: http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co....n-sparkles-in-papua-new-guinea-name_page.html
"They were constantly touching you and wanting to shake your hand," explained Webster.
"There were crowds outside the hotels chanting `BARLA, BARLA'.
"There were six matches in Papua and they were all sold out, with thousands more outside the grounds."
RL is the biggest sport in PNG..
I see you are referring to the grandparent and parent rules that make people eligible to play for certain countries... many international sports have these rules. I've seen kiwis in the Japanese Rugby union team and Aussies play for scotland RU... similar for soccer.... happens in RL also. In fact lebanon was so inspired they set up a domestic comp and a rep team is soon to be touring england. www.lebrl.com
Club games of RL get higher average crowds than club games of RU in england.
You obviously have no idea..... i won't point out some of the fantastic crowds that have been achieved at international RL matches in other countries as someone else already has.
International RL has enormous potential ...... it just needs to fully realise that potential.... and that is what they are trying to do now.
- May 24, 2004
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I actually do have an idea, thank you very much copa, it's just that I don't tend to buy the hype that inevitably permeates the international development of sports like Australian Rules and Rugby League. Quite often, developments overseas are hyped up to stir media attention locally and build a sports' profile, and also often in the hope of attracting further funding from organisations (like the ARL and AFL) that administer the sports in their home-regions.
I didn't at any stage allude to the fact that Australian Rules is "on par" with RL in France, but when France is RL's 4th largest national market, it paints a pretty poor picture of the code as compared with dozens of other sports. The presence of a professional team in France says nothing of the sports' development - after all, there is a professional RL team in Melbourne! A more RL-hostile area worldwide would be hard to find... And, at any rate, for the last decade at least, RL's blueprint for development time and again has been to place professional teams in locations lacking the grassroots support to sustainably support them long-term. Australia's a classic example of this (remember Adelaide, the Western Reds, Melbourne, Hunter, South Queensland, Gold Coast...?). So the presence of a professional team in France does nothing to convince me of League's popularity there.
As for the code's popularity in PNG, I'm sure as a knowledgable leaguer you realise that RL has only grown in popularity post-Independence (1975), before which Aussie Rules was the national sport and attracted the same levels of support. Currently, Aussie Rules is again undergoing a phenomenal period of growth and is taking back much ground from RL due to the positive effects AFL-PNG social programs are having in the many areas. (check www.afl-png.com) And as for the 'mobbing' of visiting sides, this is something that happens to travelling sportspersons of many sports (including AFL) when they visit PNG. It's something that seems to happen globally in third-world countries, where tourists and semi-elite sportspersons rarely visit.
The grandparent rules I alluded to are often applied in other sports, but never on the scale adopted by League. Your world cup featured WHOLE TEAMS of Australian born citizens playing "for" Lebanon and the like, whereas Kiwis playing Union "for" Japan at least have to have lived there for several years and never seem to constitute the entire national team.
Look, I'm not trying to belittle RL, just to dampen the wild claims being made in it's favour by those wishing to see it recognised as a truly international sport. Sure, there have been big attendances to RL games overseas, but that can also be said of AFL matches, which have sold out games in Japan, Canada, England, the US and have attracted good crowds to games in SA and NZ.
And don't get me started on the fact that Tatarstan and New Caledonia aren't actually nations.... it's like me claiming the Democratic Republic of Tasmania is on the list of nations dedicated to Aussie Rules!
I didn't at any stage allude to the fact that Australian Rules is "on par" with RL in France, but when France is RL's 4th largest national market, it paints a pretty poor picture of the code as compared with dozens of other sports. The presence of a professional team in France says nothing of the sports' development - after all, there is a professional RL team in Melbourne! A more RL-hostile area worldwide would be hard to find... And, at any rate, for the last decade at least, RL's blueprint for development time and again has been to place professional teams in locations lacking the grassroots support to sustainably support them long-term. Australia's a classic example of this (remember Adelaide, the Western Reds, Melbourne, Hunter, South Queensland, Gold Coast...?). So the presence of a professional team in France does nothing to convince me of League's popularity there.
As for the code's popularity in PNG, I'm sure as a knowledgable leaguer you realise that RL has only grown in popularity post-Independence (1975), before which Aussie Rules was the national sport and attracted the same levels of support. Currently, Aussie Rules is again undergoing a phenomenal period of growth and is taking back much ground from RL due to the positive effects AFL-PNG social programs are having in the many areas. (check www.afl-png.com) And as for the 'mobbing' of visiting sides, this is something that happens to travelling sportspersons of many sports (including AFL) when they visit PNG. It's something that seems to happen globally in third-world countries, where tourists and semi-elite sportspersons rarely visit.
The grandparent rules I alluded to are often applied in other sports, but never on the scale adopted by League. Your world cup featured WHOLE TEAMS of Australian born citizens playing "for" Lebanon and the like, whereas Kiwis playing Union "for" Japan at least have to have lived there for several years and never seem to constitute the entire national team.
Look, I'm not trying to belittle RL, just to dampen the wild claims being made in it's favour by those wishing to see it recognised as a truly international sport. Sure, there have been big attendances to RL games overseas, but that can also be said of AFL matches, which have sold out games in Japan, Canada, England, the US and have attracted good crowds to games in SA and NZ.
And don't get me started on the fact that Tatarstan and New Caledonia aren't actually nations.... it's like me claiming the Democratic Republic of Tasmania is on the list of nations dedicated to Aussie Rules!