Injury Russell your feathers - discuss all things high performance; injury lists, Marvel surface, curse from the gods and Andrew Russell

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ferrisb

ferrisb

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Veteran 10k Posts Meet-Up Master Carlton Blues - Matthew Kreuzer Sponsor 2016 Carlton Blues - Matthew Kreuzer Sponsor 2015
May 22, 2011
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The Naughty Corner
AFL Club
Carlton
Hi peeps. The injury thread has been overtaken by discussion about our injury history, Andrew Russell debates and heated boxing matches between posters.

That's all valid discussion, but IMO it has taken over the thread and it's become hard to actually track the injury updates (thank goodness for Aph pinning updates at top of the page).

The mods might disagree, but I think we need a dedicated thread for all this discussion and keep the actual injury thread clean (and hopefully rarely updated).

I thought the 'OK, you want Voss gone. Now what?' thread was a brilliant way to cut the Voss discussion out of 10 threads and centralise it in one place. Hoping to do the same here.

Regards,

ferrisb: RSI (1-2 weeks)
 
How do you measure the sucesss of the High Performance guy?

If it's wins then get the man a statue.

If it's soft tissue injuries then "sakc russsell".
 
Hate the guys playing at Marvel. Does anyone know of a Swamp (or similar) analysis of soft tissue injuries per # games played on that carpark, club v club?
 

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Good: we seem as fit and strong as any team in the comp.

Bad: we do seem to have ‘more’ soft tissue injuries than most.

Neither is completely his fault and neither has zero to do with him. But to reiterate what someone else said, how can you really judge a performance guy unless you’re really in the weeds inside the club?
 
Seems silly to have to say this - but injury prevention is only one aspect of his job.

Meanwhile Jesse Motlop brought down Darcy Cameron in a 1 on 1 tackle in open field the other week.
 
NewDarkNavyBlues said:
I know two former physios that worked at the blues. Their description of Russell was not glowing. His results with injury management and prevention don’t surprise me. Time to move him on.
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Whether true or not it's not really enough to say let's get rid of him. Plenty of people who are difficult to work with are world leaders and outstanding in their fields.

I am related to a club dr and know multiple physios and surgeons around the league and his reputation and all that is still absolutely top.
 
It's hard for any of us to really have an educated opinion without knowing his exact role, his KPIs, who he is in charge of, what falls under his scope, who has final call on player availability, etc.
All we are basing it on is the optics. From what I can find, there's approximately 180 people on staff, which ranges from players, coaches, trainers, physios, directors, media, membership, merchandise, interns, even barista, etc.

As far as the medical side of it goes:
There's a coaching and performance manager, strength and conditioning coaches (x4), sports therapist, sports trainers (AFL/VFL/AFLW), medical and player development coordinator, head club doctor, sports science coordinator, head trainer, medical services manager, osteo (x2), Physio (x2), massage therapist.

What's the chain of command? Who is ultimately in charge of what?
 
Someone had to go there ... thanks ferrisb

Andrew Russell arrived at Carlton as probably the most high profile and revered fitness guy in the league, alongside Darren Burgess who is now at Adelaide after stints at Port and Melbourne.

Most famously, Russell was responsible for overseeing the rehabilitation and rising success of Hawthorn, where he worked for 14 years. So revered was Russell, Hawthorn made him a life member! Notably, he was also at Essendon in 2000 and Port Adelaide in 2004 ... premierships just tended to follow him around.

Russell joined Carlton after a review of our high performance department (sound familiar?) in 2018. The announcement of Russell's appointment included some instructive messages regarding his role and where the club had identified deficiencies - in both strategic thinking but also in people management.

Clearly Russell's role was much larger than putting together a fitness program. In many sports, High Performance departments have evolved to encompass oversight of physical and mental wellbeing, injury recovery and load management. It's an important and generally growing field which is integral to getting the best out of athletes.

Not only did Russell have significant responsibilities, he was initially also the public face of club with regular injury updates and media interviews.
That only served to heighten pressure as the injury updates provided previously (and somewhat infamously) by Head of Football Andrew "1-2 weeks" McKay had led to a great deal of scepticism about the truthfulness of public injury reports.
Russell was seen as "the" expert and the media department lapped it up.

Unfortunately, the club was facing a difficult time on and off the field. Results (match outcomes) were poor, coaches were under fire and the board instability remained. Russell however was still in the honeymoon phase.

It wasn't until 2021 when the spotlight really started to turn towards our high performance department. Our most promising talent Charlie Curnow couldn't get on the park - devastating (and bizarre) knee injuries and extended recovery periods hit both the on field results and the mindset hard. Our recruitment of high draft picks with dubious injury histories started to impact. Mitch McGovern was sent on a modern day training regime that was akin to the Lance Whitnall fat camp from another era. It didn't work. Jack Martin's calves were akin to an 80yo man. Caleb Marchbank was just an illusion. People couldn't spell Cuningham because he just never appeared on the team sheet.

None of our Russell's responses seemed to have obvious impacts. Were the players not committed enough? Was our program too tough? Was our program too soft? Was our recruitment to blame? Should the Princes Park surface be ripped up and replaced with non-injury inducing grass?
In early 2022 something clicked. Another coaching change and we are out of the blocks like Usain Bolt on a Jamaican beach. The murmurs disappeared, temporarily at least.

Then our biggest match of the year. Collingwood at the MCG on a Sunday in late May. Jacob Weitering in AA form cops a whack on his shoulder and is subbed out. Arguably, this innocuous incident is start of the rot.
Stats would latter show, we lost the fifth-most games from our best 22 players to injury in 2022, after ranking an undesirable second in season 2021.

Williams, Hewett, Kennedy, Walsh, Pittonet - keys to our midfield revival - all went down for various periods and we went into the final four games of 2022 needing only one victory to seal a finals berth. At round 20, 16 players were on the injury list.

With a depleted list we lost all four games and missed finals by percentage. Notably, Walsh played on until the final round despite clearly being hampered ... who was running this sh@tshow?

A review was ordered. So important was the topic, that the el Presidente address the issue with fans. He categorically denied the surface at IKON Park was responsible for the spate of injuries -and reiterated that fitness and medical would be the focus of the review.
By this stage Russell had disappeared from the regular injury updates and from media interviews. He was clearly in the gun.
Changes were made - and implemented. Individual programs were fine tuned and the approach to injury management became much more conservative.

Some of the dregs of the 2022 disaster leaked into the 2023 preseason. Walsh, Philp Cottrell, Boyd and disastrously Zac Williams experienced significantly time on the sidelines recovering from serious injuries.

Martin, Marchbank and Cuningham remained invisible as we stuttered through a depressing and unexpected first half of 2023.
Remarkably on a nondescript Saturday afternoon at the MCG against the Gold Coast Suns, something clicked.
Martin and Cuningham would soon return. The midfield band was getting back together and even Mitch McGovern had a run of games. Hail King Russell, we knew you would come through.

Supporters and officials alike did not touch wood however. Blinded by the best run of form in 20 years, slowly it crept up again. A late out here, a midweek hamstring strain there. A couple of collision injuries and here we are again. Cerra, Kennedy, Silvagni, McGovern, McKay all in a race against time to be fit for another finals charge.

There's two sides to every tale here. Our injury record under Russell's watch is undisputedly poor.
Having key players out in 2022 significantly impacted our ability to win games when finals were on the line. It could yet be an influence on the outcome in 2023.

We continue to see players with recurring soft tissue issues - hamstrings and calves for those who were already on the watchlist. Compounded by the expected collision injuries of which we cannot apportion blame but emphasise the need for the very best rehabilitation approaches.
This is our reality.

Question is, how much of this is the responsibility of the high performance department and of Russell as the head of this unit?
I would argue this is exactly the question asked in the review at the end of the 2022 season. Changes have been made - some obvious and others that publicly wont be revealed.

Russell would be under no illusion of what the expectations are. I don't think anyone outside the club would be aware of whether he is meeting those expectations this year - but I'm confident enough to suggest the club has done considerable due diligence on this issue and has enough information at hand to make good decisions about our high performance department beyond this year.
 
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He got Charlie’s knee back from the brinks of disaster, looked like loosing an absolute gun before even entering his prime…
Plenty of points for me just for that one…
Imagine a current Carlton team without our gun forward…

Don’t even go there…
 
I have also suspected that to handle the Voss style of footy (collision injuries likely) players would need to put on some bulk. Two pre-seasons in the gym, with a few back injuries to go alongside it, means they have likely pushed their muscles harder, gotten heavier, and maybe even ran less, leaving them open to late season soft tissue injuries. They seem to be handling the intensity now though, so maybe next year will be a different kind of pre-season with less of these super effen frustrating injuries
 
Jeremias said:
There is simply no way of you knowing this, for a variety of different reasons
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Disagree. He was an incredibly expensive purchase out of Hawthorn, we got him to break contract to come over, and he's a large component of our soft cap expense.

We have not had a dream run with injury, and many of them are soft tissue injuries. During his tenure we have consistently had a problem leaking goals in red time which was both a fitness and mental issue.

Due to the known significance of his contract, it is very hard to argue we have received value for money, and he's had a long time to prove himself.
 
slashin_velvet said:
Disagree. He was an incredibly expensive purchase out of Hawthorn, we got him to break contract to come over, and he's a large component of our soft cap expense.

We have not had a dream run with injury, and many of them are soft tissue injuries. During his tenure we have consistently had a problem leaking goals in red time which was both a fitness and mental issue.

Due to the known significance of his contract, it is very hard to argue we have received value for money, and he's had a long time to prove himself.
Click to expand...

So what’s he on? You said he’s a large component of our soft cap, how large are we talking?
 
DangerousD said:
So what’s he on? You said he’s a large component of our soft cap, how large are we talking?
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So whilst I can't say specifics, we know he was highly paid at Hawthorn - so much so, he was specifically name checked as a potential challenge for the Hawks when the soft cap was being introduced: Making the new cap fit: managing the football department spend

The challenge I would put out, is in the time he has been with the club, have we seen a significant improvement in soft tissue injuries and their management?

Hope this helps you understand why I don't think we are getting value for money.
b350a2e66a5bfd7a3b0688ba2cd316b0.jpg
 
Whether I think our fitness or injury list/management has improved isn’t what I’m questioning here.

Your post and many others keep making assumptions on someone’s salary, some saying he’s taking up most of our cap, then when asked what he’s on, they have no idea.

The opinion piece you referenced which doesn’t mention money at all, is 8 or more years old.

It’s very tough to make a call if someone isn’t value for money if you have no idea of the money they’re on.
 
DangerousD said:
Whether I think our fitness or injury list/management has improved isn’t what I’m questioning here.

Your post and many others keep making assumptions on someone’s salary, some saying he’s taking up most of our cap, then when asked what he’s on, they have no idea.

The opinion piece you referenced which doesn’t mention money at all, is 8 or more years old.

It’s very tough to make a call if someone isn’t value for money if you have no idea of the money they’re on.
Click to expand...
Noone specifically knows what any player is on, but they can have an estimate based on perceived market value. Guarantee Cripps is one of the more highly paid and taking up a large chunk of our cap.

Newbold at Hawthorn was trying to get exceptions for certain tenures because he knew he had an upcoming issue with how much they were paying both Clarkson and Russell (hint, it was a lot).

We would have paid overs on what he was on at the Hawks as we got him to break contract to come over.

I'll concede that there's a chance he took a cut during COVID which hasn't been restored, but he would still be an expensive component for the team, and from my perspective he is not providing good value for money when our track record of soft tissue injuries does not seem better than any other teams.
 
slashin_velvet said:
Noone specifically knows what any player is on, but they can have an estimate based on perceived market value. Guarantee Cripps is one of the more highly paid and taking up a large chunk of our cap.

Newbold at Hawthorn was trying to get exceptions for certain tenures because he knew he had an upcoming issue with how much they were paying both Clarkson and Russell (hint, it was a lot).

We would have paid overs on what he was on at the Hawks as we got him to break contract to come over.

I'll concede that there's a chance he took a cut during COVID which hasn't been restored, but he would still be an expensive component for the team, and from my perspective he is not providing good value for money when our track record of soft tissue injuries does not seem better than any other teams.
Click to expand...
How's our record of matching other teams run at the end of games looking?

Staggers me that people still try and poke holes at the edges of a club and team that has literally picked itself off the canvas to avoid being knocked out and is landing haymakers left right and centre.

It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if Voss said to Russell "we are going to play brutal football and I need bodies that can stand up to playing brutal football even if we lose some along the way"

We should be literally chairing Russell from the ground. Charlie Curnow. Dave Cuningham, Jack Martin, Caleb Marchbank, snd the likes are playing regular senior football and look confident that their bodies will hold up.

We look bigger and stronger than the teams we are playing and the players are confident that they are. We lose some foot soldiers. Bring the next one in.

I've not heard the slightest concern that we are near our soft cap limit. Russell is a professional. If anything this season has once again confirmed that he is one of the best in the business.
 
slashin_velvet said:
Disagree. He was an incredibly expensive purchase out of Hawthorn, we got him to break contract to come over, and he's a large component of our soft cap expense.

We have not had a dream run with injury, and many of them are soft tissue injuries. During his tenure we have consistently had a problem leaking goals in red time which was both a fitness and mental issue.

Due to the known significance of his contract, it is very hard to argue we have received value for money, and he's had a long time to prove himself.
Click to expand...
Correlation is not causation.

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