Opinion Saints midfield ranked

[longlivelenny]

Afternoon all
Lots of folk, including people in here and in the media continue to say how our midfield is not up to scratch. So I did a bit of thinking about it and have ranked where I think Saints sit in the ranking of the comp.

Feel free to debate me, but I Think when you look at it, our midfield stacks up reasonably well against the comp.

So here we go.

1: dogs.
Tough to split the dogs and the Dee's but dogs are more skillful and over all better I think. Bont, McRae, Smith, Hunter, Dunkley, Treloar and libba.

2: Melbourne
Track, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, harmes, langdon, Dunstan very tough and win a lot of ball and are very dynamic. Not the greatest bunch of ball users though

3: gws
Kelly, hopper, Coniglio, Taranto, Ward, green Perryman, deboer
Could be above Melbourne. Great mix of inside tough and outside class

4: Essendon
Shiel, parish, Merrett, McGrath, stringer, Caldwell, Hobbs, Langford
I hate Essendon so it's hard to say they are good but it's a pretty decent and deep midfield.

5: Brisbane
Neale, mcluggage, Berry, Zorko, Raynor, Lyons Bailey.


Now it gets harder. I think you could legitimately mount a case that Saints come next. So I'm going to put them next

Saints:
Steele, Jones, Crouch, Ross, Hill Clarke Gresham, billings, hanners ( I know he doesn't play often) bytel and others

It's not as big names as others, but there are 4 all Australians in there, a mix of inside and outside, toughness, size and speed.

From here I will explain why each team is worse than Saints.

Carlton
Dow, Cripps, cerra, Walsh, Hewitt, Curnow Kennedy
Very good starting mids but fall away badly after that.

Freo
Fyfe, Brayshaw, Mundy, serong acres, Brodie
If cerra was still there they would be above us. But there two best players are above 30. One is always injured and then below that they are young.

Sydney:
Kennedy, Parker, Heeney Rowbottom, Florent
Kennedy has dropped off, Parker is a gun, Heeney is always talked about but never properly delivers a full season Rowbottom is nothing special and Florent has never delivered on talent. There is also a bunch of young kids who run through there occasionally who I haven't named. Massively over achieved last year and all fall away this year.

Geelong:
Paddy, Selwood, Duncan, menengola, Parfitt, Guthrie, Smith
Old, started to get showed up last year, injured often and no good youth coming through. Paddy has also lost some speed which is his main weapon.

Port
Boak, butters, rozee, duursma, wines
I actually think that they are above Geelong but can't be bothered changing. Boak still there best player at 35. Rozee just does some flashy stuff, duursma and butters are often injured ABS duursma is not anything special anyway. Butters will be a good player. Wines obviously a gun but not really any better than Steele.

Richmond
Dusty, cotchin, Lambert, Prestia, Bolton Graham, Edwards
Dusty is obviously a gun, Prestia never plays, cotchin gone way backwards, Edwards is a good player, the others are just meh

Collingwood
Adams, sidebottom, degoey, pendles, young kids
Pendle playing half back this year, Adams injured and not particularly great, sidebottom has dropped away and the rest are kids

Throw a towel over the rest, they are all pretty garbage.

Only thing to note is that North and gold coast will be pretty decent in a few years.

Adelaide a long way off.

Feel free to give me your thoughts, but the more I look at it the more I think we are ok. Particularly when you add in ruckman to the conversation.

Cheers






On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saintbloke]

In most of our losses last season, it was basically the midfield who let us down at crucial times. Our clearance and stoppage work last season was poor. Something big will need to happen for us to play finals, and at the moment I would rate our midfield in the bottom 4, which really annoys me, as we have a had quite a few years to fix this obvious weakness.

 

[longlivelenny]

In most of our losses last season, it was basically the midfield who let us down at crucial times. Our clearance and stoppage work last season was poor. Something big will need to happen for us to play finals, and at the moment I would rate our midfield in the bottom 4, which really annoys me, as we have a had quite a few years to fix this obvious weakness.

I honestly can't see how you could think our midfield is bottom four and I would disagree that our midfield let us down. In pretty much every game except a few thrashings, our midfield broke with the other team.
We are clearly not the best midfield but we are a long way from bottom 4

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[Saintbloke]

I honestly can't see how you could think our midfield is bottom four and I would disagree that our midfield let us down. In pretty much every game except a few thrashings, our midfield broke with the other team.
We are clearly not the best midfield but we are a long way from bottom 4

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

We lack serious class and system in the midfield, and we won't be winning a premiership unless it gets fixed. Our backline last season was put under too much pressure due to the midfield's lack of a strong defensive mindset and not enough work off the ball, let alone scrubby clearances which gave the forwards no chance.

 

[gringo2011]

We lack serious class and system in the midfield, and we won't be winning a premiership unless it gets fixed. Our backline last season was put under too much pressure due to the midfield's lack of a strong defensive mindset and not enough work off the ball, let alone scrubby clearances which gave the forwards no chance.

We've got a teaser midfield IMO. Steele is there and top 15 in the comp. Jones is probably our second best and he's Adam Treloar one week and injured or ordinary others. Crouch is a GOP since coming over, he doesn't have a lot of drive or intensity. Seb Ross see Crouch, has a lack of competitive drive IMO, happy career footballer who'll come for a ride, Gresham could be anything but has been anything but reliable as far as getting on to the field so far, Hannerbury....forgot about his existence for a minute, Bytel and Byrnes,as much as everyone wants to count them both as stars they are developing types.

People will bag me out but Dunstan made a difference in the second half of the year and having a second clearance mid made us much better at winning games of footy.

We need to keep identifying midfield talent and stump up for one. Hobbs would have been nice but in the meantime we just have to hope that Bytel and Byrnes can step up...or Hunts.

It could be worth chucking Sinclair and Paton on ball as well. Try changing things up. Leave Hunter Clark down back with Webster and Hill or something..

 

[Saintbloke]

We've got a teaser midfield IMO. Steele is there and top 15 in the comp. Jones is probably our second best and he's Adam Treloar one week and injured or ordinary others. Crouch is a GOP since coming over, he doesn't have a lot of drive or intensity. Seb Ross see Crouch, has a lack of competitive drive IMO, happy career footballer who'll come for a ride, Gresham could be anything but has been anything but reliable as far as getting on to the field so far, Hannerbury....forgot about his existence for a minute, Bytel and Byrnes,as much as everyone wants to count them both as stars they are developing types.

People will bag me out but Dunstan made a difference in the second half of the year and having a second clearance mid made us much better at winning games of footy.

We need to keep identifying midfield talent and stump up for one. Hobbs would have been nice but in the meantime we just have to hope that Bytel and Byrnes can step up...or Hunts.

It could be worth chucking Sinclair and Paton on ball as well. Try changing things up. Leave Hunter Clark down back with Webster and Hill or something..

Yeah, I think we need to try a few different combinations through the midfield early this season, as I think the system is as per last year and very predictable. Just depends how adventurous Ratts is.

 

[Munga]

I don't think our rapid ball movement of recent years has helped our plodding midfield (especially last season). The rumoured switch to a slower possession game this year might benefit them, it might even be the biggest difference in our charge up the ladder.

If so, do we have the skill to pull off the possession game? And can we implement a forward structure to honour leads... or do we have forward beasts for contested marks, and crumbing specialists? So far it looks like we're going to bomb to King again, let's hope the crumbers are there. It's hard judging our crumbers when we've already had the best of all time (Milne). He was always there at the fall, no one else since has matched his standard.

 

[ike2112]

Afternoon all
Lots of folk, including people in here and in the media continue to say how our midfield is not up to scratch. So I did a bit of thinking about it and have ranked where I think Saints sit in the ranking of the comp.

Feel free to debate me, but I Think when you look at it, our midfield stacks up reasonably well against the comp.

So here we go.

1: dogs.
Tough to split the dogs and the Dee's but dogs are more skillful and over all better I think. Bont, McRae, Smith, Hunter, Dunkley, Treloar and libba.

2: Melbourne
Track, Oliver, Viney, Brayshaw, harmes, langdon, Dunstan very tough and win a lot of ball and are very dynamic. Not the greatest bunch of ball users though

3: gws
Kelly, hopper, Coniglio, Taranto, Ward, green Perryman, deboer
Could be above Melbourne. Great mix of inside tough and outside class

4: Essendon
Shiel, parish, Merrett, McGrath, stringer, Caldwell, Hobbs, Langford
I hate Essendon so it's hard to say they are good but it's a pretty decent and deep midfield.

5: Brisbane
Neale, mcluggage, Berry, Zorko, Raynor, Lyons Bailey.


Now it gets harder. I think you could legitimately mount a case that Saints come next. So I'm going to put them next

Saints:
Steele, Jones, Crouch, Ross, Hill Clarke Gresham, billings, hanners ( I know he doesn't play often) bytel and others

It's not as big names as others, but there are 4 all Australians in there, a mix of inside and outside, toughness, size and speed.

From here I will explain why each team is worse than Saints.

Carlton
Dow, Cripps, cerra, Walsh, Hewitt, Curnow Kennedy
Very good starting mids but fall away badly after that.

Freo
Fyfe, Brayshaw, Mundy, serong acres, Brodie
If cerra was still there they would be above us. But there two best players are above 30. One is always injured and then below that they are young.

Sydney:
Kennedy, Parker, Heeney Rowbottom, Florent
Kennedy has dropped off, Parker is a gun, Heeney is always talked about but never properly delivers a full season Rowbottom is nothing special and Florent has never delivered on talent. There is also a bunch of young kids who run through there occasionally who I haven't named. Massively over achieved last year and all fall away this year.

Geelong:
Paddy, Selwood, Duncan, menengola, Parfitt, Guthrie, Smith
Old, started to get showed up last year, injured often and no good youth coming through. Paddy has also lost some speed which is his main weapon.

Port
Boak, butters, rozee, duursma, wines
I actually think that they are above Geelong but can't be bothered changing. Boak still there best player at 35. Rozee just does some flashy stuff, duursma and butters are often injured ABS duursma is not anything special anyway. Butters will be a good player. Wines obviously a gun but not really any better than Steele.

Richmond
Dusty, cotchin, Lambert, Prestia, Bolton Graham, Edwards
Dusty is obviously a gun, Prestia never plays, cotchin gone way backwards, Edwards is a good player, the others are just meh

Collingwood
Adams, sidebottom, degoey, pendles, young kids
Pendle playing half back this year, Adams injured and not particularly great, sidebottom has dropped away and the rest are kids

Throw a towel over the rest, they are all pretty garbage.

Only thing to note is that North and gold coast will be pretty decent in a few years.

Adelaide a long way off.

Feel free to give me your thoughts, but the more I look at it the more I think we are ok. Particularly when you add in ruckman to the conversation.

Cheers






On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

I always find the rose-tinted perspective of many Saints fans at this time of year highly bemusing. We're not a bad side, but we're paper thin. We can't spend all of last year claiming injuries were the reason for being so poor, add nobody of any significance in the middle, lose a key defender without replacement, and then go into 2022 thinking it'll all be fine.
On the other hand I've found it far less stressful to take a more distanced view of my own side's list and try to take a more impartial view, see how other clubs fans view our list. When I do that, I'm far less surprised when we inevitably produce inconsistent, frustrating performances.

I'll start with the others though that you think are below us.

Port have a lot of dynamic players they can rotate through the middle. Wines I tend to agree, was surprised he won the Brownlow as he's predominantly just an extractor, however he does impact the scoreboard more than Steele and is certainly one of the comp's best 6-7 mids. Boak does not get the credit that man deserves - Port were an absolute shambles when he was made captain; nobody would have blinked if he'd gone back to Victoria at end of 2012. They immediately made finals instead. He was one of the comp's best leaders, then stepped aside for others to take it on. At 31 had a career year. Now still going through the midfield, and if its 4th qtr, game on the line and I need to win the next couple clearances, he'd be one of the mids I'd want on my side. For me, he is their Lenny Hayes; a man other clubs fans respect. A fair bit rests on how Houston goes in the middle too.

Geelong if everyone's fit are still one of the best midfields in the comp, partly because in any game they have about 16 guys rotate through. However I do think the constant urge by the AFL to make the game faster, is so much at odds with how the Cats play, they will eventually hit a wall. Whilst its funny to mock them as geriatrics, age isn't the issue for me, style/tactics I think might impact them first.

Richmond again if fit are superior - they tore us apart last year, round 6 or 7 they had 3 on 2s all over the place and were pissing through us. Their wings never got the jersey dirty, our flat-footed mids caught inside far too often. Shia Bolton on his day is more dynamic than anyone we have in the middle and should only improve this year.

Now you can argue that those teams will likely never have all 10 best players they rotate through midfield fit for more than the odd week of the season. And that's true. But Saints have a huge dropoff in our midfield if we don't have everyone fit, more of a drop than other clubs arguably.

Steele is probably the competition's best defensive midfielder. He still often plays a sort of run-with role, yet gets 33 touches in the process along with 10 tackles. But he's not influencing the game as much as some lesser players; whereas Dusty might touch it 16 games and be involved in 8 scores through that, Steele could touch it 40 and be involved in 3 scores.
Zac Jones had a really good first season with us. He was a career 70%er in disposal, but improved considerably (by over 5%) with us until the tail end. His quick feet are something we really lack, and we need him to be the difference.
Brad Crouch is a nothing player, I can't think of anyone who can get more anonymous touches in a game of footy, and I'm sick of breaking down game film and seeing him jog on the defensive side instead of run toward his own posts. Its fine to carry someone like this who is just a footy-getter that can't kick accurately, 1 is fine, our issue last year was the only other player in the comp who rivals him for these traits it perhaps Dunstan.
Gresham is a really good player, but his best moments have not been in the midfield. He does some excellent things in the forward line, and he plays in the midfield too, but I've yet to see him actually play well as a predominantly midfield player. He also has missed more games than anyone else you mentioned from other teams in the last 3yr.
Hannebery, if we're including him - well there's the injury issues obviously. But when fit he's not had a single Brownlow vote, has only been voted in the best in one single game; a dead-rubber round 23 game against his Swans mates. He got the runaround from Tyler Brown against the Pies. His standard just hasn't been good enough when fit.
Ross is a shell of the player he once was. I don't even know where he plays now, has dropped off too much to actually play in the middle, doesn't have the speed or agility for a modern wing. I think he plays halfback and half forward realistically, and is both literally and metaphorically a peripheral player.
Hill - his best footy is at halfback. He's a liability on the wing. This makes him an expensive halfback, but I'd rather see his best play so put him there.
Clark - I think every Saints fan expected Clark to be a fulltime mid last year. And it didn't occur; in fact early season whilst we knew we had injury issues, one of the most alarming concerns was the form of Clark and Coffield. Clark was going ok but nothing special, and was quickly moved back to halfback. Coffield in and out the team all year. I really hope the knock to the jaw doesn't impact his intensity, and he kicks on and plays the year in the middle. If I think back a year, year and a half, I had Clark as one of the obvious breakout players in the AFL. Had him ahead of Jy Simpkin for example. Now Simpkin has become a clearly established midfielder who is comfortable in traffic; that's what we need from Clark.
Billings can't hack it in the midfield. He isn't accountable enough in defence; the destruction by Richmond I mentioned earlier, it was often his direct opponents on the outside getting the 2nd or 3rd touch out of the middle and running through to kick inside 50 with little pressure. Billings is a luxury player, a high-half-forward who is great at linking play but has the appearance of ideally not needing to have a shower after the game. Again like Crouch we can carry a player like this, most clubs have one that they take skill over other characteristics, but don't call him a mid as he doesn't help us there at all.
Bytel - can't see what the hype is about. A nothing player. Even at VFL, doesn't dominate in touches and doesn't impact scoreboard. Just a meh player, who needs to show vast improvement this year otherwise we should delist.

We lost Dunstan, not a great loss really and Lonie was a frustrating player, but they were guys who played in the mids. I'm assuming this year that Byrnes, Connolly, perhaps McKenzie all need to play in the middle. I'm sure we'll see Wanganeen-Milera likely to play on the wing at times but thinking true midfielder, attending contests etc I just don't see much depth in our side at all.
And I really don't see anyone with the sort of game-breaking ability that Jack Steven for example had with his burst away from the pack. Jones is capable of it, Gresham is too, but will we see it 2-3 times a game or will we see it 2-3 times all season? That's the key part.

What I'd argue we make up for with the midfield is three things:
1) our pressure - any time we've had a good win, or any win against a perceived better side, its been through immense pressure. But we rarely go back-to-back with it. Has our fitness improved to allow us to do it?
2) quick ball movement; in 2020 we were different to almost every other opponent teams faced, because we moved the footy quickly, but not by the usual means. Normally quick footy means running it through the inside channels, break in the corridor if you can.
Instead what we did was overload with talls. In 2017-19 most teams played 2 key forwards and a ruck, hence when kicking in they'd have a tall option down either line for a long kick, then a guy staying down the park in the attacking 50. If they kicked wide to the ruck, even if he took a mark they had to wait for players to push down the ground before the next kick. The Saints however played Ryder, Marshall, King and Membrey at minimum, usually supported by Battle, Marsh, Kent - the latter two not exactly being game-breakers but high effort guys and a defensive matchup issue for teams nonetheless. This meant we could kick down the line to Membrey or Ryder, and then they could turn and play on and kick long to Marshall or King down to the half-foward area, so we could quickly move the ball from 'tower to tower' as coaches call it. This was why we broke or were close to many marking records or contensting mark records during the year; we broke the record in the finals win against the Dogs. It meant the footy moved quick, negated the 'spare defender' which teams had become used to (and plagued us due to our inaccurate kicking inside 50), and meant Higgins, Lonie and Butler were playing footy running towards the goals, crumbing at feet. We scored the most goals in the comp "out the back" and it wasn't even close - our goal-kicking accuracy was well improved, because we were shooting closer to goals.
3) our 'set piece' play in 2020 was excellent. You could see the work our stoppages coach was doing, and with Ryder (I think the best true tap ruck in the comp) setting us up beautifully, it created space. It was like giving all our mids an extra 10% ability, because you're always better when disposing under less pressure.

Ryder is now likely to miss the season start, and he has only reached 19 games twice since 2011, a situation that is not likely to improve at age 34. We recruited Tom Campbell to offer a better ruck/fwd option than McKernan/Hunter, yet Jack Hayes already seems to have gone right by him and is even in the frame for a round 1 debut. That's worrying - that a player we targeted for need is already now a potential list-clogger, 4th option ruck (5th if Max Heath is capable?).
Can we get similar production out of the ruck? Will anyone else step up in the middle (Clark, Byrnes, one of the rookies?). Can we get back to quicker ball movement?
Those will all matter; more as a collective than how highly ranked our midfield is on paper.

 

[ike2112]

I don't think our rapid ball movement of recent years has helped our plodding midfield (especially last season). The rumoured switch to a slower possession game this year might benefit them, it might even be the biggest difference in our charge up the ladder.

If so, do we have the skill to pull off the possession game? And can we implement a forward structure to honour leads... or do we have forward beasts for contested marks, and crumbing specialists? So far it looks like we're going to bomb to King again, let's hope the crumbers are there. It's hard judging our crumbers when we've already had the best of all time (Milne). He was always there at the fall, no one else since has matched his standard.

The problem there wasn't our style of play, it was our recruitment.

Moving the ball quickly, via talls, was great for us because it did three things - masked our erratic kicking inside 50 (all we ever hear/read on gameday is 'stop bombing it in') because quicker ball entry means less organised defenses and no floating spare defender, it made up for us not always matching up well in the contest beyond Steele, and allowed us to kick for goal closer to the posts because instead of hitting guys on the 50 arc on the lead, we'd hit up to another tall like Battle 70-80m out and then they could kick deeper to a 1:1 within 30m of goal, Higgins Butler and Lonie all hanging about. Our f50 entries were ultimately deeper, and against less packed defences.

Then we recruited plodder Crouch, and due to injuries played Dunstan a lot; we played the year with probably the slowest midfield 3 the AFL had been in decades; Crouch, Steele and Dunstan.

For me, glad to see Dunstan gone, hope we phase out Crouch or use him situationally, and we bring through more dynamic players alongside Steele. Its a massive difference if Clark can come through - say him and Jones alongside Steele is a much better attacking proposition than Crouch and Dunstan playing against witches hats.

 

[Ads734]

In most of our losses last season, it was basically the midfield who let us down at crucial times. Our clearance and stoppage work last season was poor. Something big will need to happen for us to play finals, and at the moment I would rate our midfield in the bottom 4, which really annoys me, as we have a had quite a few years to fix this obvious weakness.

If argue all our close games were actually due to goal kicking

 

[plugger66]

Our midfield is our big problem. For all the depth there isn’t much class. Huge year for gresh and Clark. We need them to become very good mids. I’d say we are about 10th in the midfield. Need to become top 6. No coincidence that the 2 best midfields played in the grand final last year.

 

[longlivelenny]

I always find the rose-tinted perspective of many Saints fans at this time of year highly bemusing. We're not a bad side, but we're paper thin. We can't spend all of last year claiming injuries were the reason for being so poor, add nobody of any significance in the middle, lose a key defender without replacement, and then go into 2022 thinking it'll all be fine.
On the other hand I've found it far less stressful to take a more distanced view of my own side's list and try to take a more impartial view, see how other clubs fans view our list. When I do that, I'm far less surprised when we inevitably produce inconsistent, frustrating performances.

I'll start with the others though that you think are below us.

Port have a lot of dynamic players they can rotate through the middle. Wines I tend to agree, was surprised he won the Brownlow as he's predominantly just an extractor, however he does impact the scoreboard more than Steele and is certainly one of the comp's best 6-7 mids. Boak does not get the credit that man deserves - Port were an absolute shambles when he was made captain; nobody would have blinked if he'd gone back to Victoria at end of 2012. They immediately made finals instead. He was one of the comp's best leaders, then stepped aside for others to take it on. At 31 had a career year. Now still going through the midfield, and if its 4th qtr, game on the line and I need to win the next couple clearances, he'd be one of the mids I'd want on my side. For me, he is their Lenny Hayes; a man other clubs fans respect. A fair bit rests on how Houston goes in the middle too.

Geelong if everyone's fit are still one of the best midfields in the comp, partly because in any game they have about 16 guys rotate through. However I do think the constant urge by the AFL to make the game faster, is so much at odds with how the Cats play, they will eventually hit a wall. Whilst its funny to mock them as geriatrics, age isn't the issue for me, style/tactics I think might impact them first.

Richmond again if fit are superior - they tore us apart last year, round 6 or 7 they had 3 on 2s all over the place and were pissing through us. Their wings never got the jersey dirty, our flat-footed mids caught inside far too often. Shia Bolton on his day is more dynamic than anyone we have in the middle and should only improve this year.

Now you can argue that those teams will likely never have all 10 best players they rotate through midfield fit for more than the odd week of the season. And that's true. But Saints have a huge dropoff in our midfield if we don't have everyone fit, more of a drop than other clubs arguably.

Steele is probably the competition's best defensive midfielder. He still often plays a sort of run-with role, yet gets 33 touches in the process along with 10 tackles. But he's not influencing the game as much as some lesser players; whereas Dusty might touch it 16 games and be involved in 8 scores through that, Steele could touch it 40 and be involved in 3 scores.
Zac Jones had a really good first season with us. He was a career 70%er in disposal, but improved considerably (by over 5%) with us until the tail end. His quick feet are something we really lack, and we need him to be the difference.
Brad Crouch is a nothing player, I can't think of anyone who can get more anonymous touches in a game of footy, and I'm sick of breaking down game film and seeing him jog on the defensive side instead of run toward his own posts. Its fine to carry someone like this who is just a footy-getter that can't kick accurately, 1 is fine, our issue last year was the only other player in the comp who rivals him for these traits it perhaps Dunstan.
Gresham is a really good player, but his best moments have not been in the midfield. He does some excellent things in the forward line, and he plays in the midfield too, but I've yet to see him actually play well as a predominantly midfield player. He also has missed more games than anyone else you mentioned from other teams in the last 3yr.
Hannebery, if we're including him - well there's the injury issues obviously. But when fit he's not had a single Brownlow vote, has only been voted in the best in one single game; a dead-rubber round 23 game against his Swans mates. He got the runaround from Tyler Brown against the Pies. His standard just hasn't been good enough when fit.
Ross is a shell of the player he once was. I don't even know where he plays now, has dropped off too much to actually play in the middle, doesn't have the speed or agility for a modern wing. I think he plays halfback and half forward realistically, and is both literally and metaphorically a peripheral player.
Hill - his best footy is at halfback. He's a liability on the wing. This makes him an expensive halfback, but I'd rather see his best play so put him there.
Clark - I think every Saints fan expected Clark to be a fulltime mid last year. And it didn't occur; in fact early season whilst we knew we had injury issues, one of the most alarming concerns was the form of Clark and Coffield. Clark was going ok but nothing special, and was quickly moved back to halfback. Coffield in and out the team all year. I really hope the knock to the jaw doesn't impact his intensity, and he kicks on and plays the year in the middle. If I think back a year, year and a half, I had Clark as one of the obvious breakout players in the AFL. Had him ahead of Jy Simpkin for example. Now Simpkin has become a clearly established midfielder who is comfortable in traffic; that's what we need from Clark.
Billings can't hack it in the midfield. He isn't accountable enough in defence; the destruction by Richmond I mentioned earlier, it was often his direct opponents on the outside getting the 2nd or 3rd touch out of the middle and running through to kick inside 50 with little pressure. Billings is a luxury player, a high-half-forward who is great at linking play but has the appearance of ideally not needing to have a shower after the game. Again like Crouch we can carry a player like this, most clubs have one that they take skill over other characteristics, but don't call him a mid as he doesn't help us there at all.
Bytel - can't see what the hype is about. A nothing player. Even at VFL, doesn't dominate in touches and doesn't impact scoreboard. Just a meh player, who needs to show vast improvement this year otherwise we should delist.

We lost Dunstan, not a great loss really and Lonie was a frustrating player, but they were guys who played in the mids. I'm assuming this year that Byrnes, Connolly, perhaps McKenzie all need to play in the middle. I'm sure we'll see Wanganeen-Milera likely to play on the wing at times but thinking true midfielder, attending contests etc I just don't see much depth in our side at all.
And I really don't see anyone with the sort of game-breaking ability that Jack Steven for example had with his burst away from the pack. Jones is capable of it, Gresham is too, but will we see it 2-3 times a game or will we see it 2-3 times all season? That's the key part.

What I'd argue we make up for with the midfield is three things:
1) our pressure - any time we've had a good win, or any win against a perceived better side, its been through immense pressure. But we rarely go back-to-back with it. Has our fitness improved to allow us to do it?
2) quick ball movement; in 2020 we were different to almost every other opponent teams faced, because we moved the footy quickly, but not by the usual means. Normally quick footy means running it through the inside channels, break in the corridor if you can.
Instead what we did was overload with talls. In 2017-19 most teams played 2 key forwards and a ruck, hence when kicking in they'd have a tall option down either line for a long kick, then a guy staying down the park in the attacking 50. If they kicked wide to the ruck, even if he took a mark they had to wait for players to push down the ground before the next kick. The Saints however played Ryder, Marshall, King and Membrey at minimum, usually supported by Battle, Marsh, Kent - the latter two not exactly being game-breakers but high effort guys and a defensive matchup issue for teams nonetheless. This meant we could kick down the line to Membrey or Ryder, and then they could turn and play on and kick long to Marshall or King down to the half-foward area, so we could quickly move the ball from 'tower to tower' as coaches call it. This was why we broke or were close to many marking records or contensting mark records during the year; we broke the record in the finals win against the Dogs. It meant the footy moved quick, negated the 'spare defender' which teams had become used to (and plagued us due to our inaccurate kicking inside 50), and meant Higgins, Lonie and Butler were playing footy running towards the goals, crumbing at feet. We scored the most goals in the comp "out the back" and it wasn't even close - our goal-kicking accuracy was well improved, because we were shooting closer to goals.
3) our 'set piece' play in 2020 was excellent. You could see the work our stoppages coach was doing, and with Ryder (I think the best true tap ruck in the comp) setting us up beautifully, it created space. It was like giving all our mids an extra 10% ability, because you're always better when disposing under less pressure.

Ryder is now likely to miss the season start, and he has only reached 19 games twice since 2011, a situation that is not likely to improve at age 34. We recruited Tom Campbell to offer a better ruck/fwd option than McKernan/Hunter, yet Jack Hayes already seems to have gone right by him and is even in the frame for a round 1 debut. That's worrying - that a player we targeted for need is already now a potential list-clogger, 4th option ruck (5th if Max Heath is capable?).
Can we get similar production out of the ruck? Will anyone else step up in the middle (Clark, Byrnes, one of the rookies?). Can we get back to quicker ball movement?
Those will all matter; more as a collective than how highly ranked our midfield is on paper.

That's a well measured take and I understand what you're saying.
But maybe not giving the Saints enough credit. I actually find most Saints supporters on here go the other way and continue to say how crap we are rather than how good as are

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[hayes]

We have one A grade/AA player in our midfield so any team who has more than that is automatically better. We have nice depth and options but that’s useless without the top end talent. Like plugger said we need Clark to step up and Gresh and even Jones to stop getting injured. We also need to hit the draft big time for mids but only been saying that for a decade.

 

[Veer Right]

Steele is probably the competition's best defensive midfielder. He still often plays a sort of run-with role, yet gets 33 touches in the process along with 10 tackles. But he's not influencing the game as much as some lesser players; whereas Dusty might touch it 16 games and be involved in 8 scores through that, Steele could touch it 40 and be involved in 3 scores.

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Come again? Steele kills Martin with disposals, marks, tackles, inside 50s are similar, disposal efficiency, clearances, metres gained are similar, score involvements are dead even.

Steele plays BOTH ways. If our midfield wasn't so crap he could play with a more offensive mindset for the record.

 

[gringo2011]

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Come again? Steele kills Martin with disposals, marks, tackles, inside 50s are similar, disposal efficiency, clearances, metres gained are similar, score involvements are dead even.

Steele plays BOTH ways. If our midfield wasn't so crap he could play with a more offensive mindset for the record.

Steele is a top of the tree player like MacCrae, Wines etc but Martin is a superstar. Dustin Martin influences games more than just about any I've seen in my lifetime. Steele statistically might beat him but if you asked any neutral observer who they'd prefer.... we all know the answer.

Martin would have a bigger impact than most elite mids except for maybe Petracca now. I don't think even Bont comes close and he's s star too.

 

[Joffaboy]

Steele is a top of the tree player like MacCrae, Wines etc but Martin is a superstar. Dustin Martin influences games more than just about any I've seen in my lifetime. Steele statistically might beat him but if you asked any neutral observer who they'd prefer.... we all know the answer.

Martin would have a bigger impact than most elite mids except for maybe Petracca now. I don't think even Bont comes close and he's s star too.

Dustin Martin - had a chance to recruit him
Petracca - had the chance to draft him
Bont - had the chance to draft him

 

[Veer Right]

Steele is a top of the tree player like MacCrae, Wines etc but Martin is a superstar. Dustin Martin influences games more than just about any I've seen in my lifetime. Steele statistically might beat him but if you asked any neutral observer who they'd prefer.... we all know the answer.

Martin would have a bigger impact than most elite mids except for maybe Petracca now. I don't think even Bont comes close and he's s star too.

I love Martin as much as the next guy. He has Steele covered with his turn of foot from clearances and his goal nous yet he has the luxury to play to his strengths with his teammates doing a lot of the heavy lifting which allows him to get off the chain.

Who does our heavy lifting? Ross? The man who is 50/50 to hit a target 20m away.

Remember last year, round one. Steele was tearing GWS up in the first half. Start the second half, he's got two players on him locked to his every move with the GWS ruck tapping it in any direction Steele was not. Hunter Clark starred in our win due to having no freakin man on him!

Anyway Martin is a freak nature regardless.

 

[ike2112]

That's a well measured take and I understand what you're saying.
But maybe not giving the Saints enough credit. I actually find most Saints supporters on here go the other way and continue to say how crap we are rather than how good as are

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

Fair enough. I do scroll the Saints members facebook group 2-3 times a week. A straw poll there would likely have us top 4 by a clear majority, that was the vibe last March and hence widespread shock and outcry when it turned out we were middle-of-the-table standard (though this time without finals)

 

[ike2112]

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison

Jack Steele and Dustin Martin AFL Stats Comparison.

www.footywire.com

Come again? Steele kills Martin with disposals, marks, tackles, inside 50s are similar, disposal efficiency, clearances, metres gained are similar, score involvements are dead even.

Steele plays BOTH ways. If our midfield wasn't so crap he could play with a more offensive mindset for the record.

Your stats make my point for me.
Statistically Steele gets the ball much more, tackles more. But Dusty has same amount of attacking stats despite getting much less of it. Hence his efficiency of impacting the game per touch is much higher - frankly its extremely high. Rioli used to have a high factor there but he was never the core thrust of a side the way Martin is. Dusty is a generational superstar. And I should correct myself, I actually wrote that Martin was a "lesser player" I more meant that he's around the footy less. Steele is on the screen more than maybe any other player cos the lad is relentless. Martin just pops up 4 or 5 games and steals the momentum from teams, particularly in September.
All I was really meaning by it is that Steele is a top, top player, an AA midfielder any day. But of all the players at that standard, he's the most defensive-minded. You don't tend to see him tearing through the middle and hitting someone on the lead from the goalsquare laces-out.

 

[bergholt]

Saints:
Steele, Jones, Crouch, Ross, Hill Clarke Gresham, billings, hanners ( I know he doesn't play often) bytel and others

It's not as big names as others, but there are 4 all Australians in there, a mix of inside and outside, toughness, size and speed.

Who are the 4 AAs? Steele yes, Hanners in the old days but seems weird to count him as that now, Ross made the squad but not the team once. Maybe 1.2 AAs?

 

[Remboy]

Our midfield is our big problem. For all the depth there isn’t much class. Huge year for gresh and Clark. We need them to become very good mids. I’d say we are about 10th in the midfield. Need to become top 6. No coincidence that the 2 best midfields played in the grand final last year.

That's why having Marshall and Ryder available is so important. It goes a long way to getting us first use out of the middle which can help to make up for other deficiencies.

 

[ScrappyDo]

I honestly can't see how you'd (or anyone else) rate our midfield in the first place.
Gresham has been out for almost 2 years
Jones available only in patches
Crouch finding his feet in a new crew
Hunter not getting a proper run and then out for half the season

We simply don't know how well they'll perform as a unit because they've never had the opportunity to play together.
Synergy counts for a lot, and you can see that in the current successful sides.

I've noted a few times that I think our mix is a bit wrong, but that hopefully self corrects this season or next as a couple are pushed out of the side.

I don't think we'll see the proper goods until 2023 or even 2024 so rating us against mature hardened units doesn't mean a lot right now.

 

[Remboy]

Bytel - can't see what the hype is about. A nothing player. Even at VFL, doesn't dominate in touches and doesn't impact scoreboard. Just a meh player, who needs to show vast improvement this year otherwise we should delist.

Didn't he only play two full VFL games last year and get 38 possessions in one of them? How many would you like him to get?

 

[longlivelenny]

Who are the 4 AAs? Steele yes, Hanners in the old days but seems weird to count him as that now, Ross made the squad but not the team once. Maybe 1.2 AAs?

Steele, Hill and hanners. Sorry found out that now that it was Matt Crouch who made it in 2017 not Brad

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app

 

[longlivelenny]

I honestly can't see how you'd (or anyone else) rate our midfield in the first place.
Gresham has been out for almost 2 years
Jones available only in patches
Crouch finding his feet in a new crew
Hunter not getting a proper run and then out for half the season

We simply don't know how well they'll perform as a unit because they've never had the opportunity to play together.
Synergy counts for a lot, and you can see that in the current successful sides.

I've noted a few times that I think our mix is a bit wrong, but that hopefully self corrects this season or next as a couple are pushed out of the side.

I don't think we'll see the proper goods until 2023 or even 2024 so rating us against mature hardened units doesn't mean a lot right now.

Just making some conversation mate.
I'm not convinced the current crew will be able to win a flag but our midfield is not so bad as people think.

On Pixel 6 Pro using BigFooty.com mobile app