Secured Spots

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by macca23
You're basically correct though. Apart from Hart, Brisbane's mid-field concentrate on ripping the opposition to shreds, rather than tagging. Brisbane won 3 flags mainly because of the quality of their attacking mid-field and a great spine.

You're right but Brisbane has the luxury of being able to concentrate on ripping the opposition into shreds because of the amazing depth and quality of their midfield. We have a good midfield but Brisbane's fab 4 are arguably better than our fab 4 and the rest of their players that rotate through the midfield are better than ours.

As we don't have that kind of luxury we rely more on our tagger than Brisbane does but Shaun Hart does a fantastic job for them.

 

[Damp Squarie]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World

Football is a very fashionable game
- trends change all the time, short time ago all clubs only had one ruckman, now the trend is going back to 2.
Short answer is "how important are taggers to the success of a team"??? Because they're deemed important last year, will they be as important in 2004, or will some innovative coach create a new fashionable trend in football by not having specific taggers.

I like your thinking Wayne's-World.
Taggers or run withs or stoppers will always be part of our game unless we can win every position one on one.

One innovation that mystifies the F out of me is why dont teams use thier own players as "stepladders" on a crucial goalline kick?

Often a kick will scrape over the line but it could have been touched by a well timed fly

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by macca23

You're basically correct though. Apart from Hart, Brisbane's mid-field concentrate on ripping the opposition to shreds, rather than tagging. Brisbane won 3 flags mainly because of the quality of their attacking mid-field and a great spine.

I'll admit you got me on the Brisbane tagger question but

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
You're right but Brisbane has the luxury of being able to concentrate on ripping the opposition into shreds because of the amazing depth and quality of their midfield. We have a good midfield but Brisbane's fab 4 are arguably better than our fab 4 and the rest of their players that rotate through the midfield are better than ours.

As we don't have that kind of luxury we rely more on our tagger than Brisbane does but Shaun Hart does a fantastic job for them.

Brisbanes midfield deliver the ball to their forwards, better than ours. Our taggers are poor in their delivery skills - creates 2 fold problem, not as attacking midfield as perhaps under blighty, and poorer delivery skills.

We rely on taggers more because of Ayres coaching style more than anything else.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Brisbanes midfield deliver the ball to their forwards, better than ours. Our taggers are poor in their delivery skills - creates 2 fold problem, not as attacking midfield as perhaps under blighty, and poorer delivery skills.

We rely on taggers more because of Ayres coaching style than anything else.

Brisbane's midfield does deliver the ball better to their forwards but its not only their midfield that makes them a great team. Just take a look at their spine and you have the making of one bloody good team. To be honest they don't have a weak spot in their line up. They have the best defence, best midfield and one of the best forward lines. Their rucking division is excellent so really they don't have a weak link.

Which brings me back to my earlier comment that Brisbane can afford to go head to head with the other team without worring too much about getting beaten in the midfield because they know they can rely on the likes of Lepptisch, Michael and Johnson to sweep in defence and keep rebounding out of 50.

The teams with not as much talent especially in key positions doesn't have that luxury. Every team relies on its tagger some more than the others. Bottom line is we don't have much choice.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

I've just finished watching on Foxtel the 1998 Crows season in review.
It brought home some thoughts that in truth scares me a little:

Talking about secured spots and champion players, compare the sides of 98 and 03.
In 03 the side is still centred around the same core group of players as in 98, with the exception we now don't have Modra, Rehn, Caven, and Jarman.

Yes new players have come along in Burton, and Johncock, but in 5 years we have not effectively replaced those champions gone from 98.

The other point was Rehn, 5 best on ground performances during 98, and I don't know how many extra best player listings he made. Averaged 20+ possessions per game - all effective, becoming another linkman. The argument re the effectiveness of our ruck division becomes obvious. Our rucks have an average, if we are lucky 10 possessions per game, nowhere as effective as Rehny. Yes good tapouts, but didn't lose anything with Rehn, who gave us more flexibility.
We effectively have 2 ruckman to do the job of one, both limited to basically one role, and a niche part of that roll (just tapouts).
Compare to the flexible teaming of Pittman and Rehn - Ruck, CHB, CHF.

It really worried me to see the same players dominating in 98 as today, with no one effectively taking their places to dominate for the team in 2008.
We need to draft some exciting youth in a hurry.

 

[macca23]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World

It really worried me to see the same players dominating in 98 as today, with no one effectively taking their places to dominate for the team in 2008.
We need to draft some exciting youth in a hurry.

That's a reasonable concern, although we have got one of them in the bank at the moment - Fergus Watts. Krueger could be another who could measure up as well

McGregor and Perrie are 2 more that are emerging as is Reilly.

The rucks certainly don't measure up to Rehn and Pittman, but that's almost an AFL wide problem at the moment.

Our next draft picks have to be aimed at future mid-fielders.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by macca23
That's a reasonable concern, although we have got one of them in the bank at the moment - Fergus Watts. Krueger could be another who could measure up as well

McGregor and Perrie are 2 more that are emerging as is Reilly.

The rucks certainly don't measure up to Rehn and Pittman, but that's almost an AFL wide problem at the moment.

Our next draft picks have to be aimed at future mid-fielders.

Macca, think our 2nd tier players are as good, if not better than 98.
Its the players at the elite level, the indespensible franchise players.
In 5 years no-one?? to replace Jarman, Rehn and Modra
I trust your right about Watts and Krueger, but it will be 3 years B4 we see their best.

Can't see Perrie and Mcgregor, as much as I admire their work ethic and contributions, being in the same category.

Makes this years draft extra special.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
The other point was Rehn, 5 best on ground performances during 98, and I don't know how many extra best player listings he made. Averaged 20+ possessions per game - all effective, becoming another linkman. The argument re the effectiveness of our ruck division becomes obvious. Our rucks have an average, if we are lucky 10 possessions per game, nowhere as effective as Rehny. Yes good tapouts, but didn't lose anything with Rehn, who gave us more flexibility.
We effectively have 2 ruckman to do the job of one, both limited to basically one role, and a niche part of that roll (just tapouts).
Compare to the flexible teaming of Pittman and Rehn - Ruck, CHB, CHF.

Exactly right. This is what I tried to point out on a number of occasion to no avail. We win the tapouts. BIG DEAL. After the ball is out of a ruck contest we are running one player short. Rehny and Pittman (especially Rehn) offered a bit around the ground where as Clarke and Biglands offer sweet F all.

It is very concerning that we have not replaced some of those players. I agree with you that our 2nd tier players are better now than they were back in 98. We do need some exciting youth and really fast with emphasis being on midfielders and a ruckman or 2 who can take a mark and get some touches in field play.

 

[Crow-mosone]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Exactly right. This is what I tried to point out on a number of occasion to no avail. We win the tapouts. BIG DEAL. After the ball is out of a ruck contest we are running one player short. Rehny and Pittman (especially Rehn) offered a bit around the ground where as Clarke and Biglands offer sweet F all.

Our league ranking in clearances does not support this argument.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Our league ranking in clearances does not support this argument.

That is a different argument.
Collingwood are near the top of the league re clearances as well, and they don't have any ruckman of note.
The point is, around the ground we effectively are running one man short. Sydney shocked the league this season because they had a ruckman (not the best) who dominated around the ground and exposed ruckman such as ours, who couldn't keep up, or think their way through the situation.

One of the key attributes of Rehn and Jarman was their footy smarts - just look at replays, they're 2 steps in front of everyone else in their reading of the game.
Carey is the same, which is why he can play longer than this year - too smart for the average footballer.

Our accessment of our new recruits is based on their physical attributes, what we don't know which propells average footballers to the elite level, is their ability to read a football game.
Unfortunately our 2 current ruckman will never get to that level, but you work with what you have got, and we have finished in contention last couple of years.

You need top draft picks to secure the talent with the right mix of skills, Physical attributes and footy smarts.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
You need top draft picks to secure the talent with the right mix of skills, Physical attributes and footy smarts.

Then why are Saint Kilda not winning premierships...

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Crow-mosone
Our league ranking in clearances does not support this argument.

Yeah but Collingwood's does.

 

[troy_sibbick]

Originally posted by RooDog
3 players i rate as near certanties if they can continue last years form are

Ian Perrie
Kris Massie
Matthew Bode

this gives us 19 secured spots, this means we have a very settled line up which is a key to being a good consistent side!!

Howabout adding Rob Shirley to that list

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
You need top draft picks to secure the talent with the right mix of skills, Physical attributes and footy smarts.

Not necesarilly. Johncock was pick 67 as was Pickett. Then you have the likes of Edwards, Goodwin and Vardy taken in the pre-season draft after being overlooked in the National Draft. The list can really go on but reality is that some awsome player will slip down the order as late as 4th round but the recruiting staff really have to know absolutely everything about the kid and have an extremely good football judgment.

For every succesfull top 10 pick there is also a failure.

 

[troy_sibbick]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
I am not aguing either just stating that Stenglein is more established than Shirley and since all sides have a tagger these days Stenglein is safe. Not because he is a gun.

I wouldn't say Stenglein was leapfrogged because we played with 2 tagers. Both Stenglein and Shirley had players to negate. I don't think it had nothing to do with Stenglein's poor form more with the fact that Shirley was in good form and didn't deserve to be dropped. Hence we changed our tactics a bit and played with 2 taggers rather than one.

Shirley was our main runwith player last year which allowed Stenglein to become a dominant midfielder not so much a tagger

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Then why are Saint Kilda not winning premierships...

History and Club cultures will prevent clubs winning premierships.
Over 100 years, can't tell me St Kilda have not had some magnificent players, probably the best in the league; Baldock, Dietrich, Lockett... Yet only one premiership. The star recruits now are replacing those who have left, retired, or about to retire.
They accept mediocrity.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
Not necesarilly. Johncock was pick 67 as was Pickett. Then you have the likes of Edwards, Goodwin and Vardy taken in the pre-season draft after being overlooked in the National Draft. The list can really go on but reality is that some awsome player will slip down the order as late as 4th round but the recruiting staff really have to know absolutely everything about the kid and have an extremely good football judgment.

For every succesfull top 10 pick there is also a failure.

Agreed, we have been very successful with PS and late draft picks.
Still a bit hit and miss, if we knew Goody was so good, why did he slip past every recruiter to the PS draft.
Says something about the crows system and culture as much as anything.

At least with top 10, there's general agreement from most clubs that they're going to be influential players. Top 5 even better. A bit less hit and miss.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18

For every succesfull top 10 pick there is also a failure.

Stiffy, your not suggesting we not chase top 10 picks are you???

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by troy_sibbick
Shirley was our main runwith player last year which allowed Stenglein to become a dominant midfielder not so much a tagger

Gee Shirley must have grown a couple on inches and changed his number to 20 because I am pretty sure I have seen #20 picking up the likes of Cousins, N. Lappin, Simpson, Nick Stevens, Paul Haselby, Scott West etc......

most of t those players I mentioned are best midfielders for their team so i think its safe to assume that Stenglein was given a job to negate then.

Shirley was secondary tagger. The only time he was our number 1 tagger, was when Stenglein was out injured.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Stiffy, your not suggesting we not chase top 10 picks are you???

No but getting our hands on top 10 pick is only a job half done. No point in getting a top 10 pick and blowing it on a bad trade or pick up someone who will not be worth a top 10 pick.

We had pick 7 and got Angwin. we all know how that ended.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Stiffy_18
No but getting our hands on top 10 pick is only a job half done. No point in getting a top 10 pick and blowing it on a bad trade or pick up someone who will not be worth a top 10 pick.

We had pick 7 and got Angwin. we all know how that ended.

Yes but we're not the first to blow a top 10 pick.
Still puzzling how we stuffed that one.
Don't they do Psych tests and background checks?

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
Yes but we're not the first to blow a top 10 pick.
Still puzzling how we stuffed that one.
Don't they do Psych tests and background checks?

I think you will find they do now. Reckon that is why AFC picked Kreuger over Hall.

 

[Kane McGoodwin]

Originally posted by Wayne's-World
History and Club cultures will prevent clubs winning premierships.
Over 100 years, can't tell me St Kilda have not had some magnificent players, probably the best in the league; Baldock, Dietrich, Lockett... Yet only one premiership. The star recruits now are replacing those who have left, retired, or about to retire.
They accept mediocrity.

Sure, but top draft picks aren't the be & end all to winning a flag like you mentioned. I don't recall us having too many top draft picks prior to winning the '97 & '98 flags!

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Originally posted by Kane McGoodwin
Reckon that is why AFC picked Kreuger over Hall.

Why do you say that