Shoenmakers

[aussieicon91]

The guy who started the OP is right and good on him for having the courage to post it - knowing that he'll be get unnecessarily blastered.

At the moment, Schoenmakers isn't up to it and his not saying that we should give up on him, but his far from a senior footballer at the moment - which is spot on.

We're obviously trying to mold him into a Key Defender, it's been obvious since day one because on current ability his nowhere near our best 22 and hasn't earnt one game in the brown and gold thus far. He makes mistakes every week and looks like passanger week in and week out - it's not as if Schoenmakers has just had 1 bad game. Not just yesterday, but 90% of the time he is near the ball, he looks like a boy playing against men and he panicks big time.

He needs to go back to Box Hill, pump out acouple of quality performances and earn his stripes because the way things are going at the moment, it is going to shatter his belief and confidence for years to come.

No one that is criticising Schoenmakers is saying that we should give up on him, FFS. We all want him to do as well as possible, but we also want what's best for the Hawthorn Football Club.

 

[PNess]

Pretty harsh post.

Reality is our forwards lost it in the 3 qtr.

I hope Shoe can take a lot out of this game because we may really need him next time against Geelong when Mooney and Hawkins are back.

 

[tjkir]

Guys

You've got to give this kid a break. On his errors - yes there were a few. But who gets on here on slams Campbell Brown or Brad Sewell for completely missing the ball with their foot as they tried to kick the ball into the forward 50? There were many mistakes by many players.

I had an interesting chat to my mate who was saying Shoey was not up to it after Varcoe ran away from him on the Cats forward 50 resulting in a Geelong goal. Shoey is not overly quick and everybody - including the coaching staff know this. Varcoe had a 10m head start on Shoey and was never going to be caught. They also know the kid is in his second year and cannot always be relied upon to make the right decisions. In spite of this Clarko plays him, so not that I think it's a bad selection, but if you are going to slam Shoey, please direct some opinion towards the coaching staff. They know his limitations at this point but still give him a crack.

 

[lethalselbow]

Just the usual vultures shifting focus. Quite pathetic.

Not the best game by Schoenmakers, but having a cracking season and going to be a star.

 

[dermott]

Pretty harsh post.

Reality is our forwards lost it in the 3 qtr.

I hope Shoe can take a lot out of this game because we may really need him next time against Geelong when Mooney and Hawkins are back.

Amazing how the blame shifts to Schoey and not our forwards/midfielders who kicked 2 goals seven behinds in the third quarter. Straight kicking would have created scoreboard pressure and won us the game. Our goal kicking is very poor and will continue to cost us games. A good forwards converts at >60% but I suspect our forwards would be doing <50% at the moment.

As for the comment that Schoey is slow because he couldn't run down Varcoe, give me a break, Varcoe is super quick. He ran down and caught Buddy in full flight. Schoey is in fact quite fast for a big guy. He ran circa 2.9 secs for 20 metre at Draft Camp. I doubt if he will have slowed down since.

 

[Heropsychodreamer]

Clarko to get the sack if we lose another game this year.
Roughy will get traded to GC for pick 32.




What, other people can make ridiculous comments, so can I!

 

[Hawk Dork]

Bottom line is Shoey needs games and he needs to experience playing against top teams in front of big crowds.
He will be a good player and he will have hight and eventually a big strong body(something we desperately need in defence).
Winning or losing to Geelong had more to do with poor kicking for goal and flukey wind conditions.
Some people need to get a life.

 

[thesquirrel]

Personally, I'm not sure Schoey is having the sort of season we were hoping for or thought he was capable of so far. I do think that he has a future, hell, we need him to have a future here, but I'm not so sure that in a fully fit squad he should necessarily be playing this year ahead of others.

Obviously Gibson came back yesterday, so adding another stronger defender into the team might well have forced Schoenmakers out. For what it is worth, if it were week one of the finals and we had to omit either Murphy or Schoenmakers, I'd think it'd have to be the latter.

As a whole, I think our backs have improved as a group a lot this year. With the addition of Stratton, and also the return of Gibson, two good backmen we didn't have access to last year, we have to understand that someone has to be left out this time. Going on current form, unfortunately, I'd say Schoenmakers. I'm not saying this directly based on yesterday - it was Geelong after all - and I still think this kid will forge a solid career here.

 

[Fevola99]

We lost by two points. If Hodge didn't turn the ball over which they scored a goal from in the last quarter we would have won. Drop Hodge he's not up to it, his errors cost us the game.

 

[blackhead&boil]

wow, I can't believe this thread exists! the kid is doing a great job this season and I'm really impressed with him.

I've never been a murphy basher in the past, but if anyone "cost us the game" yesterday I thought it was him. geelong kicked quite a few goals as a direct result of several skill/judgement errors on his part...

 

[HawkGirl9]

Hang on I think I have misunderstood - this is a forum is it not. You may not agree with other posters but by just bagging the crap out of their opinion then you just are doing what they are doing to the player - how about try to understand where they are coming from.

I think that there was a number of players who made errors yesterday and yes it would be easy to find a scapegoat - I think when you are feeling shit then people do this. I must admit I closed my eyes when a couple of different people had the ball.

Maybe the problem was the mismatches that came about in the backline - maybe if ladson had been in and taken stokes or varcoe then we all may not be talking about this.

Just my opinion - feel free to bag it if you want - or you could make a sensible discussion.

 

[Heropsychodreamer]

Hang on I think I have misunderstood - this is a forum is it not. You may not agree with other posters but by just bagging the crap out of their opinion then you just are doing what they are doing to the player - how about try to understand where they are coming from.

I think that there was a number of players who made errors yesterday and yes it would be easy to find a scapegoat - I think when you are feeling shit then people do this. I must admit I closed my eyes when a couple of different people had the ball.

Maybe the problem was the mismatches that came about in the backline - maybe if ladson had been in and taken stokes or varcoe then we all may not be talking about this.

Just my opinion - feel free to bag it if you want - or you could make a sensible discussion.

Ladson was in hospital last weekend,i think gaestro... but not 100% (definately wasnt sleeping pill overdose though!)

I prefer Brown in the backline, but i heard he added a lot of defensive pressure up fwd.

 

[THEHIGHFLYINGHAWKER]

I read your post. I'm not suggesting you blame him for the loss. I noted your singling out of individual players and pointed to the fact that football clubs do not single out individual negatives on the ground and use them to analyse why they lose matches.

In Ryan's case today, he made some errors, yes. But I'll put this question to you. What if our midfield had been stronger in stopping Geelong's quick rebound from our forward 50? What if the pressure were not there in the first place?

If you can't handle pressure then don't play AFL. Stratton seems to be handling the pressure ok in his first year of AFL.
Shoenmakers is a 1-2 years away IMO. His decision making is slow and hasn't being able to fully read the play yet. Hopefully that should come in time.

 

[IBleedBrownNGold]

If you can't handle pressure then don't play AFL. Stratton seems to be handling the pressure ok in his first year of AFL.
Shoenmakers is a 1-2 years away IMO. His decision making is slow and hasn't being able to fully read the play yet. Hopefully that should come in time.

Schoey played all his junior footy in the forward line. He's come to the Hawks and been asked to play in a position he knows very little about. Coupled with the fact that it will take him more than 50 games to find his feet, I would suggest we need to cut the kid some slack.

On the Stratton point, yes he's done a fantastic job of stepping up. He is a somewhat more mature pick-up, but more importantly, Stratts IS a backman and had been playing in that position back in Perth. So it's very much apples and oranges.

 

[Teamwork Talks]

Schoey should stay in the team.

Geelong exploited our tall backline by playing a bunch on short people on their forward line. Good move on a windy day. Schoey playing on Stokes is a clever move by Geelong and a dumb move by Hawthorn.

Schoey was picked to play on Ottons or any other tall forward. He did well against the man-mountain Ottons.

IMO Brown should have been moved back to play on Stokes. This, of course, is 20-20 hindsight.

We only lost by 2 pts so lets not hit the panic button yet!

 

[BlackByrd]

Schoey played all his junior footy in the forward line. He's come to the Hawks and been asked to play in a position he knows very little about. Coupled with the fact that it will take him more than 50 games to find his feet, I would suggest we need to cut the kid some slack.

On the Stratton point, yes he's done a fantastic job of stepping up. He is a somewhat more mature pick-up, but more importantly, Stratts IS a backman and had been playing in that position back in Perth. So it's very much apples and oranges.

Great Call. Stratton has played his whole life down back. Thats 11 years of experience learning how to read the play, spoiling, working on his disposal from the backline etc:

Schoey is a natural forward being asked to play an unnatural game in the backline. He effectivley has had one year of experience (last year) playing in the backline and is still learing the ropes. Give this kid 1-2 more years in the backline with help from stratton, brown etc: and he will be a star

 

[Spook]

Just my 2 cents:

I, PERSONALLY, don't see Shoey developing as a KPD. His lack of awareness and poor decision-making will prevent him from performing as CHB/FB.

I think we should stick him in the forward line and develop him there. He just seems more suitable and comfortable as a KPF. He definitlely has the physical attributes and skills to trouble many defenders.

Shift Shoey to the forward line, and push Roughie down back. That way, this gives them both an opportunity to regain their confidence...

Can I guess that you have obviously played and/or coached a bit of footy? the reason I say that is because it is normal practise that you play your smartest KPP at CHB. The bloke who reads the play the best, who can judge the flight of the ball the best, Knows when to body and when to push of, Knows when to run of and when to stay.
Schoey 'may' develop these qualities but from my experience those players who have these qualities naturally - the likes of Chris Mew, Paul Roos, Glen Jakovich and even Harry Taylor. These guys did not look like the smoothest players and/or freakiest skilled players but the had 'it'... a bit like Stratts.... Stratts has it Schoey definitely DOES NOT HAVE IT.

Sorry Schoey you may be a long AFL footballer but as a CHB you do not have it... maybe a negating gorilla on gorilla full back but he will never make a CHB.

I believe that he does crumble a bit under pressure and is to slow to dispose of the ball. This has been easy to see for the season. Whether we keep playing him or not depends on who else can fill the positions... at this stage Schoey is in so we have to back him... BUT to say 'he has it' just becuase he has our jumper on is dreaming.... he might become a good AFL player but he DOES NOT HAVE 'IT' as our key CHB.

I remember a young CHB who didn't have it who went and played forward for another club and still didn't have it who then ended up being a fairly good CHB.... It took so long that we actually traded him.... Maybe we could try this again another Hodge and Mitchell would be nice.

 

[Rudi Gilham]

Hang on I think I have misunderstood - this is a forum is it not. You may not agree with other posters but by just bagging the crap out of their opinion then you just are doing what they are doing to the player - how about try to understand where they are coming from.

I think that there was a number of players who made errors yesterday and yes it would be easy to find a scapegoat - I think when you are feeling shit then people do this. I must admit I closed my eyes when a couple of different people had the ball.

Maybe the problem was the mismatches that came about in the backline - maybe if ladson had been in and taken stokes or varcoe then we all may not be talking about this.

Just my opinion - feel free to bag it if you want - or you could make a sensible discussion.

What a great post!!!

While I, too, don't want to see threads where posters say things like "Player A is rubbish", it seems that these days any poster who ventures an opinion even remotely negative on a particular player, is shot down in flames and told to "go find another team".

I enjoy this forum due to the differing opinions and robust discussions on my beloved Hawks.

 

[tjkir]

Guys

You've got to give this kid a break. On his errors - yes there were a few. But who gets on here on slams Campbell Brown or Brad Sewell for completely missing the ball with their foot as they tried to kick the ball into the forward 50? There were many mistakes by many players.

I had an interesting chat to my mate who was saying Shoey was not up to it after Varcoe ran away from him on the Cats forward 50 resulting in a Geelong goal. Shoey is not overly quick and everybody - including the coaching staff know this. Varcoe had a 10m head start on Shoey and was never going to be caught. They also know the kid is in his second year and cannot always be relied upon to make the right decisions. In spite of this Clarko plays him, so not that I think it's a bad selection, but if you are going to slam Shoey, please direct some opinion towards the coaching staff. They know his limitations at this point but still give him a crack.

Completely unbeknowns to me, my mate, I have just found out is the illustrious "Kapil Hawk". Should've looked at who started this thread but Kapil your opinions are a little short-sighted .

In all seriousness though, Kapil Hawk, although I don't agree with his opinion on Shoenmakers in this instance, is a passionate Hawthorn fan who loves this club. We are all on here with one thing in mind. We want the best for our team and love the Hawks. Just need to think these things through a little better before lambasting a young player.

 

[Hodgepodge]

Isn't doing a lot wrong if you ask me. Turned it over a couple of times yesterday, but to me that just shows a lack of big game experience.

How many goals did Ottens kick? Oh that's right, zero.

 

[pricefixer]

Just the usual vultures shifting focus. Quite pathetic.

Not the best game by Schoenmakers, but having a cracking season and going to be a star.

Usual discussion haters come out of the closet. They only seem to want this forum to be on their own terms.

As for Schoenmakers he is not having a cracking season and made a number of critical errors yesterday. That said he has a lot of the attributes that are needed to become a KPP, I think Paotkis' idea of switching Roughead and Schoenmakers has merit and could benefit both players.

 

[buddylg]

Cannot believe the OP.

Shoenmakers will develop. You have to put faith into him and stratton, because they will hopefully be the FB/CHB that take us to our next flag.

I'd argue that Young and Bateman's kicking cost us more than Shoe's...but that would be foolish.

 

[Consumed]

This thread saddens me. Pathetic singling out of a player. The club wont be singling out players, why should we? Football has moved with the times, I suggest you do too.

I know.

If either of Young's kicks had gone through in the last quarter, the Hawks would have beaten an almost full strength Geelong team.

Schoenmakers wouldn't have been a scapegoat then.

Some people need perspective. Yeah, it's galling to narrowly lose (again), but there shouldn't be too much criticism after an effort like that.

How the hell are the young players meant to get first class experience except through games like that?

 

[Noddy23]

What about the missed chances late in the 3rd, notably Bateman kicking twice from near the boundary when he could have centered the first one and handball over the top to Buddy for the second. I would rate these worse than Shoey. I reckon he did great on Ottens going forward. Keep it up Shoey im still a massive fan!

 

[real hawk]

We lost this match at the selection table, ladson should have been in with geelong having so many small forwards and the day being very windy, Schoenmakers was always going to be in trouble when the ball hit the ground against the likes of stokes, varcoe and chapman, ladson or even muston was by far the better fit, as for campbell brown playing as a defensive forward ,well the experiment has failed as he has struggled up forward, he is better in defence, yes this game was lost due to poor kicking but equally so the match committee and coaches got it wrong, so hopefully they learn from their mistakes when and if we get another crack at the handbaggers.