Small Defenders

[Quicky]

One of the biggest weaknesses in the current Collingwood side is that we do not have a dedicated small defender capable of negating the oppositions best small forwards - and who is an automatic selection in that position.

Who do you think will - or should - fill this role in 09?? Please keep in consideration how using that player will affect the structure in the rest of the backline.

Here are some options:

Heath Shaw - Our best negating small defender. However his best position is at HBF where the drive he creates out of the backline is so important to the team. Is probably too valueable to play as a permanent BP for this reason.

Harry O'Brien - Another good option to use on the oppos best small forwards. Not sure how good he is playing against opportunistic crumbing forwards. His ability to play tall and small brings our backline alot of versatility which would be a shame to lose if he was used as a dedicated small defender. Still think his best position is as a third tall.

Tyson Goldsack - Another option but one I feel is a bit mismatched. His defensive work is solid particularly his tackling but not sure he reads the ball well enough to be really good on crumbing forwards. Perhaps better suited to a third tall or flank position.

Nick Maxwell - Probably not a good position for Nick but certainly an option. His defensive pressure and in particular his tackling would be assets in this possi however probably better used as a utility in the thick of the action - especially as he is now captain.

Alan Toovey - Good defensively and another option for the possie. If he doesn't make in the BP can't see him making it anywhere. Again a concern over his ability to read the play well enough to a very good small defender but certainly has the other defensive attributes and tenacity to play here.

Ben Johnson - May find a position in the team as a BP. Worry about his disposal coming out of the backline however. Also a concern is that he has played most of his footy as an offensive HBF so unsure how he will handle the role change. Has the speed, strength and defensive pressure to pull it off however.

Other options: Marty Clarke, Anthony Corrie, Tristan Francis.

Plenty of options there but they seem to either have a better position or are not quite suited to the role. What are your thoughts??

 

[mdc]

Harry's the best option, but the small forward is rarely the best forward, so I feel Harry's a tad wasted there.

My preference is for Shaw to just take the small forward. That way he's guaranteed to at least be involved in the play.

 

[Dave The Man]

Sounded to Hine after the Draft Rounds might be used as a Small Rebounding Defender

 

[smiddaz123]

Shaw can tear up any small player. He should be our small defender, we have players like Clarke who can rebound just as well.

 

[well left]

Depends on the small forward I guess and whether they are a crumbing forward or play tall like Medders does. I think a combination of Harry and Shaw should cover it as long as the other one is available to provide the drive that will be missing from the other playing a negating role.

Sounds like the rookie Francis is going to play in defense which I think is a good move and I think a Rounds or Dyas could also start out in that type of role.

The other option if we use Shaw as the negating small defender would be to use Thomas or McCarthy off half-back for periods of time.

 

[Quicky]

Harry's the best option, but the small forward is rarely the best forward, so I feel Harry's a tad wasted there.

My preference is for Shaw to just take the small forward. That way he's guaranteed to at least be involved in the play.

I agree that Harry may a bit wasted as a small defender but I think we'll definately have to play him there at times throughout the season.

I think that Shaws rebound off the HBF will be sorely missed if he plays as a small defender. Who do you think should be the 2 HBFers if Shaw is played in the BP?? I guess you would probably have to play Lockyer and Clarke then just to ensure there is enough drive off the backline. How would you structure the defense if using Shaw as a BP??

Sounded to Hine after the Draft Rounds might be used as a Small Rebounding Defender

Rounds is probably not a viable option in 09 although could start his career as a BP. I think his skills off both sides of the body as well as his speed might be wasted in a BP and would be better used in midfield off a wing. Although I should have including him as an option at the end of the OP.

My question is referring specifically to small defenders that take the oppos best small forward and in particular crumbing forwards. We got towelled up badly at times last year with these type of forwards. As such I think the first thought should be who can negate a small forward like this?? And then consider their offensive qualities.

 

[Quicky]

Depends on the small forward I guess and whether they are a crumbing forward or play tall like Medders does. I think a combination of Harry and Shaw should cover it as long as the other one is available to provide the drive that will be missing from the other playing a negating role.

Sounds like the rookie Francis is going to play in defense which I think is a good move and I think a Rounds or Dyas could also start out in that type of role.

The other option if we use Shaw as the negating small defender would be to use Thomas or McCarthy off half-back for periods of time.

This makes alot of sense from a defensive POV. The big question is then who will replace Shaws drive off the HBF?? Who do you believe should take the two HBF positions in this scenario??

Something like this might work well:

---Shaw---Presti---OBrien---
--Clarke---Brown---Lockyer--

With this keep in mind Clarke is our next best rebounding HBFer and Shaws dash off the HBF is pretty critical to replace.

Maxwell, Johnson, Corrie could also be options

The problem with the above scenario is that it would keep Clarke out of the midfield and stymie his development somewhat.

 

[the_jib]

I think the only way Johnson will cement himself back into the best 22 is through the back pocket where he really made his presence known on our list. He has decent pace and endurance and he has the ability to shut down a key small forward when he sets his mind to it. That desperation tackle on Shaun Burgoyne in that final over in Adelaide typifies his defensive side if he puts gets his position set to small back.

 

[well left]

This makes alot of sense from a defensive POV. The big question is then who will replace Shaws drive off the HBF?? Who do you believe should take the two HBF positions in this scenario??

Something like this might work well:

---Shaw---Presti---OBrien---
--Clarke---Brown---Lockyer--

With this keep in mind Clarke is our next best rebounding HBFer and Shaws dash off the HBF is pretty critical to replace.

Maxwell, Johnson, Corrie could also be options

The problem with the above scenario is that it would keep Clarke out of the midfield and stymie his development somewhat.

I think Harry's rebound and drive off half-back has improved a fair bit over the last couple of years so if Shaw plays the negating role Harry is used in a rebound role and vice versa.

Alternatively, someone like Lockyer could be used off half-back or Thomas or McCarthy as I had mentioned could both spend some time there. I would like to see them get more midfield time but it could be useful for them to spend some time there also.

 

[Old Spice]

If you're talking about shutting down a Rioli, Davey, Eddie Betts type pacey crumber and opportunist, I think Lockyer has the zip and size. If not Lockyer then maybe Johnson. Cook or Barham might also make a fist of it.

 

[Quicky]

I think Harry's rebound and drive off half-back has improved a fair bit over the last couple of years so if Shaw plays the negating role Harry is used in a rebound role and vice versa.

Alternatively, someone like Lockyer could be used off half-back or Thomas or McCarthy as I had mentioned could both spend some time there. I would like to see them get more midfield time but it could be useful for them to spend some time there also.

I'm not sure that Harry is going to be the best option as a rebounding defender. He only averages 14 touches a game and his career high is 21. Considering the importance of this position in todays game this isn't good enough IMO. Harry is a bloody great player but I don't ever see him playing the McCleod, Gilbee, Kennelly HBF role consistently. As well as his value as both a KPB, Third tall or as a first or second small defensive option.

Beams may do his apprenticeship back there

True but he is unlikely to play 22 games in this position in 09.

If you're talking about shutting down a Rioli, Davey, Eddie Betts type pacey crumber and opportunist, I think Lockyer has the zip and size. If not Lockyer then maybe Johnson. Cook or Barham might also make a fist of it.

Those guys you mentioned are the type that gave us grief last year and yes they're the players I am largely reffering too.

Lockyer has the size but I am not convinced about the zip. I never really liked him as negating small defender - his best possie is along the HBF/Wing/HFF IMO although i've supported the idea of him in the BP in the past. Definately and option.

Johnson the smoky for the possie and does have the attributes to play the role. I just have the feeling that Johnson is no longer in our best 22 and that there is a better way to structure the backline without him (see my post above).

Cook and Barham I don't think have the right defensive abilities for this position.

 

[SteeleAt11]

True but he is unlikely to play 22 games in this position in 09.

That's always true until they do it

 

[Quicky]

That's always true until they do it

Too true!! Logic would say it is unlikely though.

Of our recent draftees that I can remember only McCarthy (maybe Clarke??) has come out and played most of the games in his debut year. Pendles, Thomas, Wellingham, Brown all had a year predominantly in the twos. If Beams gets alot of game i'd hope its more in the midfield anyway.

 

[Palmer Stoat]

I think we need to two pacy small defenders. Heater is one, so I hope one of Dyas, Francis, or Rounds can become the other. Harry's v good playing on smalls, but as others have mentioned, two genuine small defenders gives us more flexibility in how we use Harry.

I'm not sure Marty has the off-the-mark pace to be a really top-notch defender; plus I think he projects more as a mid anyway.

 

[OniAu]

are the suggestions still flying around that thomas may be played off half back flank or even a pocket?

thats a pretty left field one, imo hed be wasted in a back pocket too.

Lockyer use to be our man for this position and johnson, but i feel both have lost a yard or two in pace in recent years. Someone else pointed out Rounds may be a good choice

Id agree with smiddaz though, put shaw on the best small forward. Enough of that tagging shit put on him, if you are keeping a dangerous forward quiet or out of the play then that is a win in itself. He beats most his size in one on ones more often than not. We need to find some alternate drive of the backline in other players more, in the likes of clarke or even thomas

Shaw then Clarke. Left field choice Thomas to round his game out more, although i think his defensive side is great. May round out his game more playin down back a bit, kinda like gibbs from carlton.

 

[Quicky]

I think we need to two pacy small defenders. Heater is one, so I hope one of Dyas, Francis, or Rounds can become the other. Harry's v good playing on smalls, but as others have mentioned, two genuine small defenders gives us more flexibility in how we use Harry.

I'm not sure Marty has the off-the-mark pace to be a really top-notch defender; plus I think he projects more as a mid anyway.

Who do you think will play this role in the 09 season?? Or do you think that Dyas, Rounds and Francis are viable options this year?? I think it might be a big ask of these boys for this year - two first year players and another thats only played the game for a year and coming off a serious injury - but thats not to say that it can't happen just that its very unlikely.

 

[SteeleAt11]

Beams is a year older than all our draftees and the same age as McCarthy.. he's most likely in my opinion

 

[Dave The Man]

Who do you think will play this role in the 09 season?? Or do you think that Dyas, Rounds and Francis are viable options this year?? I think it might be a big ask of these boys for this year - two first year players and another thats only played the game for a year and coming off a serious injury - but thats not to say that it can't happen just that its very unlikely.

Francis is the best bet as being a Overage Draftee at 19, Dyas is Hurt and Rounds might be too Young and Skinny

 

[Palmer Stoat]

Who do you think will play this role in the 09 season?? Or do you think that Dyas, Rounds and Francis are viable options this year?? I think it might be a big ask of these boys for this year - two first year players and another thats only played the game for a year and coming off a serious injury - but thats not to say that it can't happen just that its very unlikely.

Yes, I was thinking of the medium- to long-term with those three. In the near future, I think we'll go with a combination of Heater, Harry, Lockyer, and Clarke. I'm not particularly satisfied with Lockyer and Clarke as small defenders. Lockyer is small and medium-paced and can get exposed overhead; Clarke is a v good rebounder, but I'm not convinced he has the stickability to play on a really quick, elusive small forward). But those two seem the likeliest options in 09 -- when Harry is playing tall anyway.

Depending on match-ups, I expect that Maxwell and Goldsack will be expected to play on smalls sometimes too. That may work against some sides, but against sides with super-slippery small forwards, that's a worry IMO.

 

[Quicky]

Beams is a year older than all our draftees and the same age as McCarthy.. he's most likely in my opinion

Francis is the best bet as being a Overage Draftee at 19, Dyas is Hurt and Rounds might be too Young and Skinny

So of the first year draftees its probably a safe bet that Francis and Beams are the best bets for this position as they are both mature aged and mature bodied. My big query over this would be their experience in this position. Neither has played defense at a junior level and it would be a big ask of them to negate the comps best small forwards. Not saying its impossible by any means - its certainly an option - but just bringing some perspective to the possibility.

Out of interest do you both believe that Beams and Francis respectively are the best options for this position in 09?? And if so how would you structure the back six??

 

[mdc]

I agree that Harry may a bit wasted as a small defender but I think we'll definately have to play him there at times throughout the season.

Yep. I'm certainly happy for him to take your Milnes and your Nathan Browns, but I wouldn't be too keen for him to play on, say, Stokes or Varcoe.

I think that Shaws rebound off the HBF will be sorely missed if he plays as a small defender.

I think he could still run off fairly effectively. No-one plays deeper than Brad Johnson, and Heath did just fine running off him.

Plus, when he plays deeper his marking comes into play, and that's a major strength.

Who do you think should be the 2 HBFers if Shaw is played in the BP?? I guess you would probably have to play Lockyer and Clarke then just to ensure there is enough drive off the backline. How would you structure the defense if using Shaw as a BP??

Lockyer and Clarke make for a pretty slow combination, and both are below average 1-on-1. Maxwell and Harry both provide more drive than they're given credit for, and I'd almost always have one of them on the HBF. Then have Clarke or another runner (probably a resting mid) on the other HBF.

If you're talking about shutting down a Rioli, Davey, Eddie Betts type pacey crumber and opportunist, I think Lockyer has the zip and size. If not Lockyer then maybe Johnson. Cook or Barham might also make a fist of it.

Lockyer has zip now? I would have thought he'd be close to the slowest non-KP on the list over the first 20. Johnson and Cook are both softish outside types that I'd rather not see in defense. Barham might be a chance, but obviously needs to play a few senior games before we can make any judgments.

 

[Dave The Man]

So of the first year draftees its probably a safe bet that Francis and Beams are the best bets for this position as they are both mature aged and mature bodied. My big query over this would be their experience in this position. Neither has played defense at a junior level and it would be a big ask of them to negate the comps best small forwards. Not saying its impossible by any means - its certainly an option - but just bringing some perspective to the possibility.

Out of interest do you both believe that Beams and Francis respectively are the best options for this position in 09?? And if so how would you structure the back six??

Don't Really see Beams as a Small Defender

 

[smiddaz123]

^^^ He'd take Steve Johnson or Chapman ahead of Varcoe or Stokes.

Harry should be taking the best medium forwards. Johnson, Brennan, Brad Johnson and co.

 

[Quicky]

Don't Really see Beams as a Small Defender

No neither do I but he could be a short term option which is what Steele was suggesting. When I said respectively I was addressing the question about Beams to Steele and the question about Francis to you. I could have made it clearer. So do you think that Francis is a genuine option at BP for this season??

 

[Dave The Man]

No neither do I but he could be a short term option which is what Steele was suggesting. When I said respectively I was addressing the question about Beams to Steele and the question about Francis to you. I could have made it clearer. So do you think that Francis is a genuine option at BP for this season??

Not Really for this Season, Those Steele has played BP a bit last year