Tamed?

[JuddFevGoal]

This a thousand times.
What we lack is the requisite club culture for us to be arrogant. Our players don't will themselves to win like Carlton teams of old. They aren't forced to play within the culture of the Carlton Football Club; uncompromising, selfless and disgusted at the thought of mediocrity.

This sums up perfectly what I was trying to express in the OP.

 

[pepalenko]

I remember watching Peter Dean being interviewed on TV in the mid 90s and he was asked about the blues expectations for that particular season. Without a moment of thought his response was along the lines of "we always expect to finish on top".
I know it's a little different nowadays with drafts/equalization etc, but you just wouldn't expect to hear that from one of our current players. I'm wondering if teams like Geelong, Collingwood, Hawthorn and Sydney have players that are starting to believe that you never have to bottom out. Who knows? But I don't miss the arrogance do much as I miss the self belief.

 

[Franc de Borges]

The club is definitely gun shy since the AFL sanctions, and that's fair enough to an extent. You could also mount a counter-argument, though, that hubris still exists at the club and it's holding us back in a professional era.

Returning our our arrogant ways (as supporters) won't be an issue once we actually have a decent team to back it up. Hard to be arrogant when we're a fair to middling team at best.

It's worth remembering that the arrogance people talk about comes from us supporters, not the team. Apart from the 79/81/82 Carlton sides, even our premiership outfits haven't exuded arrogance.

When we're back on top (eventually) it's people like us that can recreate that aura moreso than the team, and I have no doubt that we will.

 

[jonoman89]

This sums up perfectly what I was trying to express in the OP.

 

[JuddFevGoal]

Exactly.

 

[pjhad1]

The club is definitely gun shy since the AFL sanctions, and that's fair enough to an extent. You could also mount a counter-argument, though, that hubris still exists at the club and it's holding us back in a professional era.

Returning our our arrogant ways (as supporters) won't be an issue once we actually have a decent team to back it up. Hard to be arrogant when we're a fair to middling team at best.

It's worth remembering that the arrogance people talk about comes from us supporters, not the team. Apart from the 79/81/82 Carlton sides, even our premiership outfits haven't exuded arrogance.

When we're back on top (eventually) it's people like us that can recreate that aura moreso than the team, and I have no doubt that we will.

I agree - it will come back when the team improves. Remember how arrogant we all got at the start of 2012, just before that Essendope game? We were premiers in round 3!

I have no doubt that the culture will re-emerge with a more consistent team. Arrogance requires an aspect of confidence, thus, as supporters, it's difficult to be arrogant when you can't be confident at which team will turn up.

 

[thylacine60]

How many false starts do we have to have?

 

[JuddFevGoal]

I agree - it will come back when the team improves. Remember how arrogant we all got at the start of 2012, just before that Essendope game? We were premiers in round 3!

I have no doubt that the culture will re-emerge with a more consistent team. Arrogance requires an aspect of confidence, thus, as supporters, it's difficult to be arrogant when you can't be confident at which team will turn up.

Who mentioned the supporters? The OP only mentioned that a change of attitude was needed in the Administration and attitude of the playing group.

 

[pjhad1]

Who mentioned the supporters? The OP only mentioned that a change of attitude was needed in the Administration and attitude of the playing group.

Did you read the comment I responded to?

 

[pjhad1]

How many false starts do we have to have?

Hopefully no more

 

[JuddFevGoal]

I didn't mean to draw particular attention to your response. The conversation started about how the Carlton administration and as a result Carlton's playing group had been 'tamed' following the sanctions and consequent rebuild from 2002.

It seems to have degenerated into a much more vapid conversation about whether the supporters are 'arrogant' enough.

I understand you were just responding to the post above. No offence meant.

 

[pjhad1]

I didn't mean to draw particular attention to your response. The conversation started about how the Carlton administration and as a result Carlton's playing group had been 'tamed' following the sanctions and consequent rebuild from 2002.

It seems to have degenerated into a much more vapid conversation about whether the supporters are 'arrogant' enough.

I understand you were just responding to the post above. No offence meant.

All good. As I understand it the relevance to the OP is the suggestion that in the past the players were not necessarily, arrogant (just great players) and that the supporter group has displayed the most arrogance. I tend to agree with that comment.

I was not making a judgment of the supporter group - just making an observation. I rather like the fact that we have arrogant supporters, because I am and I can't wait to be confident enough to boast about the Blues again...

In relation to the OP and our playing group, they simply aren't bold enough at the moment, though I'm not sure that it is lack of arrogance as opposed to loss of confidence.

 

[pumped]

I believe there is a big difference between arrogance and strength. A guy like Andrew McKay being a classic example of someone who was very strong on the field but not arrogant. To me arrogance ends up resulting in long term failure. The present side lacks mental toughness and to me this is a reflection of how for so long now Calrton have gone for quick fixes and low integrity. Would love to see confidence and transparency in the club but not arrogance.

 

[JuddFevGoal]

All good. As I understand it the relevance to the OP is the suggestion that in the past the players were not necessarily, arrogant (just great players) and that the supporter group has displayed the most arrogance. I tend to agree with that comment.

I was not making a judgment of the supporter group - just making an observation. I rather like the fact that we have arrogant supporters, because I am and I can't wait to be confident enough to boast about the Blues again...

In relation to the OP and our playing group, they simply aren't bold enough at the moment, though I'm not sure that it is lack of arrogance as opposed to loss of confidence.

I see your point but I don't necessarily think it as simple as it's being described by some posters here. One supporter might ask for 'arrogance' from the team and it might be the same thing as another asking for 'boldness'. I've stated here for example that I think it was a mistake to instruct the players last weekend to NOT sledge Essendon over the scandal. I think they were being fueled by the scandal to beat us and we needed to take that out of the game, but that's just my opinion. Sure, we are nicer guys for not doing it - but we are also now losers. AND, even worse, the Bombers appear to have won a moral victory for their club (excuse me while I puke).

The will to win is a difficult thing to describe. It does go beyond the rational to some extent. Some might describe Diesel as arrogant, others might just say that he was a realist about how good he is. Lethal's Brisbane Lions 'If it bleeds we can kill it' borders on a psychopathic attitude but I do literally remember games where I feared for the physical safety of low ranked teams playing Brisbane.

This is where the argument becomes complex - we have all seen an example of 'arrogance/boldness' gone too far over the last six months with Essendon, so there is demonstrably a line that can be crossed, but where is it?

All I know is that the words 'arrogance' or 'boldness' are just semantics. It is an attitude that other teams can feel when it's there. We felt it against Freo a few weeks back. They were a human battering ram and players like Hodge and Ballantyne exude physical presence that makes their team mates stand up. The more of these players and this attitude the better. It won't make for a bunch of nice guys but it wins games. If that means we cross from 'boldness' into 'arrogance', so be it.

 

[MileHigh]

I've been very critical, and I believe with with justification, of Essendon's behaviour over their 2012 supplements program and their inconsistent and arrogant denial of responsibility throughout this year. The last thing our game needs is clubs failing in their duty of care in being unable to account for substances injected into young footy players, and that is before what is increasingly starting to look like a drug cheating/doping issue on top of the existing governance case (see Nick McKenzie's article in The Age this weekend).

However, the tone and various reactions inside and outside of the Essendon community have started me thinking about Carlton, our culture, what we have traditionally been and what we have become today.

A lot has been said of Carlton's 'arrogance', and that term has come to exclusively refer to the period prior to our 2002 sanctions for salary cap breaches. Remember the days of 'Pig's Arse', the days of Diesel, SOS, Mad Dog, and a supporter base that arrogantly despised its enemies and demanded only the toughest and best effort from those privileged enough to don the jumper?

The post - 2002 Carlton is a different Carlton. Ian Collins immediately brought in a culture of compliance with the AFL. Take the sanctions on the chin, don't question - take responsibility. All noble gestures and sentiments that, to a degree, I am proud of; particularly when I see the spin-laden, lack of care for players and their families coming from Windy Hill this year, and indeed a lack of care for the culture of the entire game.

But what in all of this have we lost? Were we 'tamed' by the AFL? Did we go to the Telstra Dome, like good corporate citizens, as we were told?; a deal that even Sticks hints at with regret. In the last decade, have we ever peeped up in the media about issues that the club doesn't agree with in the football community? It seems to me that (barring a slight return in this direction under Richard Pratt), Malthouse is the only one who has got the heart beating again in his media dealings with regard to taking some pride in our positions, popular or not. Yes, he can be a cantankerous and amusing old bugger. But when he was asked after our loss on Saturday night by an off camera journalist if he regretted suggesting that the AFL go hard on Essendon if they are found to have brought the game into disrepute - he threw everything at that ridiculous question - 'When did you join the Priesthood?' Yes a deliberately obtuse and combative response, but the fact remains, why, just because Essendon pinched a game off an undermanned (and yes lacklustre) Carlton, should any of us suddenly concede less penalties for their outrageous treatment of their own players and the game in general? The question was beyond stupid.

Like good corporate citizens too, following the pack in the mid 2000's, we invested heavily in obedient 'professional' players, mostly midfielders who were the flavour of the month, strong on flashy skills and low on grunt and arrogance. Now we wish for a Hodge, or like much of the list at Freo, a group that puts grunt, effort and determination ahead of waiting for a chance to show slick skills.

I was angry at Carlton on Saturday night. There was more than just a game at stake, more even than making the 8. There was a moral victory to be won here. The old Carlton would've denied Hird his glory moment; his 20 minutes of spin so he could crap on endlessly about himself about how joyous everyone is at Windy Hill (devastated mum's calling Triple M aside).

Sometimes, I wish for that arrogance back, and yes, some of that arrogant culture that is driving Essendon (although I would never wish it to be as misguided as they are). Arrogance drives a supporter base to have pride, and maybe after ten years of being tamed, it's time finally for us to regain our status and foster a culture that can, by it's nature, demand higher levels of commitment, toughness, and yes, fear from our players - fear that they are not meeting the demands of a proud football club and a passionate supporter base.

There is no time like the present for the proud, old dark Blues.

Essendon is our nearest competitor for most premierships ever. They have done more damage to themselves in the last 24 months than even their worst enemy could plot for them. It's time for us to remember the many incredible players, both living and absent, made us at least the equal most successful club in our game.

In conversation with Mike Sheehan, Greg Williams was asked what it was like to coach a hero of the game like Chris Judd. What could you possibly say to him, Sheehan asked. "I just said he's not as good a ball handler as he thinks he is."

I want some of that back.

A keen insight. I dont find much fault with anything you have said here. I too feel like the mongrel is what this team is missing. We should be drafting with this in mind.

 

[BluStreak]

the type of attitude I want from our club (from the President to the boot studder) is the type that causes other teams to doubt whether they will win when they play us and our players know it, without having to say it.

 

[DirtyMuso]

Mick is there to change the culture that has been built over the last decade. He's building a culture in which any player not giving 110% for the cause will not get a senior game, where no player is guaranteed a spot based on reputation alone. Carlton as a club do carry a certain degree of arrogance, in that they rate their list far too highly (as have the media in the past couple of years.) I believe this has rubbed off on the players, and that they are happy to just go through the motions and not be constantly striving for success.

Players like Eddie Betts who come out and ask for $600,000 are not welcome at the club in the culture that Mick is establishing. The good sides these days are the sides with the strong cores, in which every player is 100% committed to the club and it's main goal. One for all and all for one. Once we can get that kind of culture up and running, we will be back up the top contending.

 

[ShanDog]

I am a military guy and understand first hand how a culture within a group can set the tone for the levels of professionalism and how that affects performance. I really like that Mick is a keen military historian and has I believe he has servicemen in his family history?? Not too sure.

From my experience in one particular "branch" of the Army, it was drilled into us that we weren't just ordinary soldiers and that we should behave as such. The image we deliberate put out there for others was one of mild arrogance; we weren't in-your-face about it, but we made it clear that we were a tight-knit group who were very good at what we did and showed an esprit-de-corps that reflected it.

Internally, we had quite high expectations of each other and nobody was ever backward in coming forward when letting people know they weren't operating at the right levels. We were pushed hard if it was felt we needed it and second-rate jobs weren't really tolerated.

I imagine the mindsets and personalities of military members are quite different to young men who join AFL clubs though. In my humble opinion, leaders at CFC need to be wholeheartedly about driving the younger blokes to improve, setting high expectations as well as reinforcing the belief that they play for Carlton - one of the greatest and oldest AFL clubs in the country! With that privilege comes a certain 'swagger' that you should have, but it must be earned!

To summarise, I reckon there is nothing wrong with a little bit of arrogance, however; that must be rooted in the right place i.e. believing that you can and will work harder than everyone else and that your team is a united group who do not accept second-best efforts.

 

[SBYM]

...With that privilege comes a certain 'swagger' that you should have, but it must be earned!

To summarise, I reckon there is nothing wrong with a little bit of arrogance, however; that must be rooted in the right place i.e. believing that you can and will work harder than everyone else and that your team is a united group who do not accept second-best efforts.

Exactly this....

 

[SBYM]

And let's be honest with one another...

...the only thing getting tamed around here are those Tigger cubs come Sundee arvo.

 

[BluStreak]

The image we deliberate put out there for others was one of mild arrogance; we weren't in-your-face about it, but we made it clear that we were a tight-knit group who were very good at what we did and showed an esprit-de-corps that reflected it.

Internally, we had quite high expectations of each other and nobody was ever backward in coming forward when letting people know they weren't operating at the right levels. We were pushed hard if it was felt we needed it and second-rate jobs weren't really tolerated.

In my humble opinion, leaders at CFC need to be wholeheartedly about driving the younger blokes to improve, setting high expectations as well as reinforcing the belief that they play for Carlton - one of the greatest and oldest AFL clubs in the country! With that privilege comes a certain 'swagger' that you should have, but it must be earned!

To summarise, I reckon there is nothing wrong with a little bit of arrogance, however; that must be rooted in the right place i.e. believing that you can and will work harder than everyone else and that your team is a united group who do not accept second-best efforts.

Preseason training, real Boot Camp + Kokoda trek for leadership (and future leadership) group???
Noticed that both Hawthorn and Swans have used Kokoda to improve their leadership.

 

[rampar]

Like any successful corp, you need inspiring but psychopathic leaders. We have a psychopath in MM but we need another 2 or more for captain and CEO/president.

 

[ShanDog]

Preseason training, real Boot Camp + Kokoda trek for leadership (and future leadership) group???
Noticed that both Hawthorn and Swans have used Kokoda to improve their leadership.

Would be nice if it were as easy as that. I reckon doing a modified army basic training course or a trek along the Kokoda Trail would be beneficial, but ultimately the players need to buy into the scheme much like the way the coaches need to 'sell' their game plan before results can happen. If the majority don't buy into it, the culture change wont come about.

The most important part of doing those sort of character building activities comes once it is all said and done and the participants go back home and return to their "workplace". If they dont drive the lessons learned forward into what they do day-to-day then it isn't very effective.

I might be pessimistic or understimating our players, but I reckon a lot of the blokes will go back to their shandies, trendy haircuts and laconic nature quicker than you can say "Where's that Carlton swagger gone?"

 

[JuddFevGoal]

I am a military guy and understand first hand how a culture within a group can set the tone for the levels of professionalism and how that affects performance. I really like that Mick is a keen military historian and has I believe he has servicemen in his family history?? Not too sure.

From my experience in one particular "branch" of the Army, it was drilled into us that we weren't just ordinary soldiers and that we should behave as such. The image we deliberate put out there for others was one of mild arrogance; we weren't in-your-face about it, but we made it clear that we were a tight-knit group who were very good at what we did and showed an esprit-de-corps that reflected it.

Internally, we had quite high expectations of each other and nobody was ever backward in coming forward when letting people know they weren't operating at the right levels. We were pushed hard if it was felt we needed it and second-rate jobs weren't really tolerated.

If you watch the interview below with Mark Maclure on Open Mike, you've just perfectly echoed his description of the mindset of Carlton '79-'82. This is what I was alluding to the OP and you've described it very well indeed. You can't bottle it though unfortunately. But the more time the players spend with blokes like Maclure, the better. Yes I know they are old school, but discipline never goes out of style.

 

[ShanDog]

If you watch the interview below with Mark Maclure on Open Mike, you've just perfectly echoed his description of the mindset of Carlton '79-'82. This is what I was alluding to the OP and you've described it very well indeed. You can't bottle it though unfortunately. But the more time the players spend with blokes like Maclure, the better. Yes I know they are old school, but discipline never goes out of style.

I remember seeing that interview and thinking about how much better this side could be if the players in it had that same attitude and culture as back then. It makes you feel a foot taller and play like it too!