The direction for 2009

[DJ75]

Ok so I'm not intending on this being an overreaction-to-the-loss type thread.

What I would like is a thoughtful discussion on how we should approach the rest of the season on terms of selection of youth.

The way I saw it, we played a large number of inexperienced players on Sat night, including:
Walker
Otten
Petrenko
Cook
Dangerfield
Tippett
Griffin
Mackay

As a result of this we are beginning to see the inconsistency you expect.

The question is;
Should we persist with this and finish the season about 10th but getting valuable time into our youngsters, OR,
Should we immediately improve our side by bringing in guys like Symes and Shirley (stronger bodies with more experience), improve slightly and perhaps finish in the 7 - 9 bracket?

For mine we need to play guys like Dangerfield, Walker, Griffin, Tippett, Mackay and Otten as much as possible.
Petrenko and Cook however could probably be the one's to miss out if we look for some more experience.

So what's better, make the finals or blood the youngsters? Are they mutually exclusive with our squad? Will Symes and Shirley actually make that much of a difference?

Thoughts?

 

[spexau]

Blood the youngsters for mine as well. It looks like Craigy is keen to get the legs into the kids as well which is very encouraging. I hope McKernan gets a run soon, he's been terrific in the SANFL from all reports. Would be good to see in the last half of the season some of our most recent draftees getting a run.

I think most of us knew that we would be an inconsistent side this year due to our inexperienced squad. That's all fine as long as we see improvement from our kids, which I think we are.

 

[WALL-e]

Persist,

We all need to harden up and realise that we will have rubbish games. I have no problems with the way the youngsters in that list are playing.

Wouldn't mind seeing a cut down on deep switching though.

Blood the youngsters.

 

[cmndstab]

At this stage, I'm not convinced that the likes of Shirley will win us any more games than our youngsters will. There seem to be culprits in the inconsistency category in all ages of our squad.


I'm all for trying to win every game and playing people on form, I'd just like to see the youngsters given somewhat more leniency than the senior players (which is what appears to be happening this year). Petrenko for example, plays a couple of poor games but wasn't dropped. Had he had a poor game against Port I would expect him to be gone this week but fortunately I don't think he did so he will probably stick around. A senior player after a couple of poor games might be gone already.

 

[Cap]

I would hope that Craigy isn't going to change things just because we lost to Port.

Keep going with the younger guys but make sure performance of others is rewarded and the mediocre performances are not consistently rewarded with re-selection*.


* obviously taking into account the level at which the player is.
For instance 5 games is a good Number for Walker, if as mentioned in the thread about the game Walker has indentified his problems then perhaps it would be good for him to sharpen that up in the SANFL and reward others for good performances (say Moran?). I’d still rather see him in the AFL but oh well.

 

[StonesThrow]

At this stage, I'm not convinced that the likes of Shirley will win us any more games than our youngsters will. There seem to be culprits in the inconsistency category in all ages of our squad.

Exactly.

Do you really think bringing in Shirley and Symes for say Dangerfield and Petrenko will win us more games? I think not. They both have strong bodies so there's no argument there. I believe they both go harder at the ball too.

Stick with the youngsters but fix the bloody game plan!!!

 

[cmndstab]

That being said, I still see Symes as a bit of a youngster. He's only 23 and I think he still has a place in our long-term 22.

Who goes out to give him a place? I'm not so sure. Once he retires, probably Doughty, but at the moment, I'm not sure.

 

[Cap]

I was mucking around with the footywire stats page, now i realise stats aren't evetything but these came up for walker. Now this is stats against his peers (as per Footywire)

Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Goals Contributed
Ranked 9th among rising stars in Total Marks
Ranked 1st among rising stars in Total Goals
Ranked 4th among rising stars in Goals Contributed Per Game
Ranked 2nd among rising stars in Goals Per Game


now of course i'm not saying stats make the player but for all his issues he is still doing a fairly impressive job for a guy his age in his position.

on that Note Andy Otten is also doing well, how he hasn't got a RSN yet I will never know.

 

[DJ75]

It's great to hear people wanting us to persist. In the past a loss like Sat night had everyone wanting to sack half the team and declare most of them as completely useless.

I really feel that Walker, Dangerfield, Mackay, Tippett and Otten should be given as much time as possible.

I'd like to see Moran and McKernan get some time this season as well. Davis is one I didn't expect to see until late next year. But he is improving each week in the SANFL and I could see him taking Otten's role in defence perhaps late this year. Otten could then push on the ball.

Cook looks a bit away yet and should develop in SANFL. Knights to take his spot.

Petrenko may be the other one to make way, although I'd like to see us persist with him as he offers something we don't have a lot of (pace, closing speed, tackling ability).

Walker is an interesting one. I get the feeling that with Tippett and Stevens up forward, he's not sure when to fly and when to stay down. Experience playing with these guys will help. The stats were interesting and show he is doing ok. I imagine he's probably also our 2nd or 3rd highest goal kicker for the year.
BUT, he's only playing about 70% gametime (the same goes for Petrenko). Given how rotations are done, we are basically playing with a bench that is much less usable than other teams. Could this cause some of the fatigue we see in our team late in quarters and late in a game?

This bench issue is one of the reasons I wondered if including Knights, Shirley and Symes might make us significantly better.

So I guess my thoughts would be:
Knights to come in for Cook.
Youth policy to remain. If Walker is rested then play McKernan (although if Stevens continues to struggle perhaps McKernan could take his spot).
I'd like to see Tippett actually play as a KPF. Moran in as the back up ruck if Maric hasn't done enough yet.

Petrenko to be persisted with, but played more game time. If a rest is needed then Symes could come in.

Walker, Otten, Dangerfield and Mackay to play as much as possible.

 

[DJ75]

Exactly.

Do you really think bringing in Shirley and Symes for say Dangerfield and Petrenko will win us more games? I think not. They both have strong bodies so there's no argument there. I believe they both go harder at the ball too.

Stick with the youngsters but fix the bloody game plan!!!

You know I actually do think Shirley and Symes would make us a better team right now (one of the reasons is the bench rotations as in my other post). They won't however make us a premiership team in the future, where as Dangerfield and Petrenko could.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

we need to hold our nerve and show some courage and keep persisting with the youngsters

we need to bring this group through together yes there will be some short term pain however lets not lose sight of the bigger picture

 

[Coopers]

I'm all for blooding the youngsters, but NC is starving Walker and TheTrenko for TOG.

They need a longer run on the ground IMO.

 

[spexau]

I'm all for blooding the youngsters, but NC is starving Walker and TheTrenko for TOG.

They need a longer run on the ground IMO.

Well they were starved against Melbourne but they had 70% TOG this week. That's not exactly bench warming. Sure they could do with more, but they might break down and spend the rest of the year in the SANFL. Can't just burn them out because we want to. Need to let them get match fitness as well as a feel for AFL footy.

 

[KUNG FU]

Spot on Spexau. As much as I'd love to see them run out the game, they are obviously being managed carefully, in order for them to actually play out the year. An injury will only stall their development and if our senior players can handle a bigger workload, then so be it.

 

[jackster83]

I think the established players in the team have become a bit too comfortable and seem to be accepting near enough is good enough. We had this culture in the early days as well, until Blight came and cut the dead wood.

The look that Rutten gave the crowd after they booed him for that wayward kick-in attempt against Geelong, it was a look of "how dare you boo me." He should have been mad at himself for a lazy effort.

Johncock was poor last year and was subsequently dropped. So far this year he has looked a million dollars (and handled himself brilliantly despite the tragic passing of his mother) and will be AA if he keeps it up. The kick in the ass did him the world of good. Maric will be better when he comes back as well.

I'm not calling for a total kneejerk reaction but the players need to realise that they MUST give 100% if they want to play at this level. If they want to just go through the motions, then they can do so in the SANFL.

 

[crowsup]

I have seen only a couple of posters suggest that Stevens should be dropped, and a lot of posters complaining about the tog for Petrenko and Walker.
I agree that the youngsters should have more tog, but only if they can sustain the effort. It is no use being on the ground if you are so tired you cannot move your body. I think they are getting more tog by playing more games. When they get the motor to go all day , they will be given the time. But only if they are contributing. And so it should be.
Stevens did absolutely nothing this week or last week. We should find out when he is out of this slum by playing him in the SANFL. Cook, though he tries valiantly, is not up to it, at the moment.
So, for mine, I would have :- Stevens, Cook and Douglas out.
Moran, Symes and Knight in.

 

[ruscy002]

To paraphrase what I've said in a couple of other threads...

We must work towards a structure that has both Maric and Griffin in as our prime ruck duo, as both are fine prospects for 23 year old ruckmen and we should do all we can to take advantage of this. Tippett to FF permanently is an obvious consequence of this, which is a positive as the guys moving the ball forward will do so with the confidence of knowing our best contested marking target is always up there. Simple but effective concept.

No problem with Walker being given a spell in the SANFL, but we MUST give him a crack from the opening bounce. It's the next logical step to get him into the game and see what he's really capable of.

Moran has come in and be given an opportunity in the forward line. Moran, Tippett, Walker, Porpy, Petrenko, Dangerfield/rotating midfielder could be the goods up forward, we have to try. Used properly with some bench rotations and even Maric pinch hitting to mix things up, we won't be hurt by the fact that we have four guys in the team over 198cms, in fact I've always been excited by this prospect.

If Moran doesn't work as a forward then we've got some other young fellas to try out.

 

[TheLeftFist8]

In thinking about the direction I'd like in 2009, i think the following line-up structure would help (players in bold are specific players in specific positions). Plenty of players could force their way into the 22 depending on form, it's the structure and thus ball movement/game plan on a macro level i am concentrating on.

Importantly, my aim would be to have 4 forwards who remain in the forward half of the ground (novel i know), though they would obvious drift up to some degree as we zone up (just not to the current level, let's trust our former league best defence to cope with only half the side playing back there).

The flankers would roam further afield to help zone but must have the pace to push forward hard to get to Tippett's area and provide occassional alternate options.

I would also give the forwards a bit more stability by not rotating so many players through there. Tippett would take the ruck work in the forward line, thus allowing the ruck to 'build the wall'.

Midfielders can rest on the bench and stay fresher. Defenders often play 90+% TOG so why cant deep forwards?

B: Stevens, Rutten, Johncock
HB: Mackay, Bock, Otten
C: McLeod, Vince, Reilly
HF: Dangerfield, Tippett, Petrenko
F: Porplyzia, 2 of Walker/Hentschel/Burton
1R: Moran, van Berlo, Thompson
Int: 1 of Maric/Griffin, Goodwin, Knights, Edwards

 

[johnnypanther]

Well they were starved against Melbourne but they had 70% TOG this week. That's not exactly bench warming. Sure they could do with more, but they might break down and spend the rest of the year in the SANFL. Can't just burn them out because we want to. Need to let them get match fitness as well as a feel for AFL footy.

well yes 70% TOG is not exactly bench warming for Walker but with our current game plan (in so far as Walker is concerned) the bench warming has merely been replaced by "grass warming" whilst the midfield/defence play ring a ring a rosy

 

[TheLeftFist8]

well yes 70% TOG is not exactly bench warming for Walker but with our current game plan (in so far as Walker is concerned) the bench warming has merely been replaced by "grass warming" whilst the midfield/defence play ring a ring a rosy

I think you are onto something...the forwards haven't been instructed to play across the centre thus leaving the attacking half of the field bereft of any players, they are simply running down there to get a bloody touch of the leather because Doughty and co are racking up huge numbers while forgetting the aim is to eventually move the pig skin towards the big white sticks on the horizon down the other end

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

It's a good thread, DJ75.

We have to remember the 'macro' of where we are at as a team.

Our champions who have carried us for so long are either retired or are slowing down - Ricciuto, Hart, McLeod, Goodwin, Edwards.

Through recruiting and selection **** ups we don't have a lot of outstanding talent in the 25-29 year age group. Doughty, Shirley and Stevens are just steady, reliable players and will never fill the void left by the champions. And the players that could be considered as outstanding (Bock, Johncock, Rutten) are all defenders who by virtue of their position can only have minimal impact on winning and influencing games.

The worry this year was always going to be that the improvement in the 20-24 year old players + the injection of some kids was not going to be enough to offset the decreasing returns from our champions.

I tipped us to finish 13th and to win 6 games. The year we had to have.

 

[Cap]

I tipped us to finish 13th and to win 6 games. The year we had to have.

better this year than next

 

[CROW36]

Blood the youngsters for mine as well. It looks like Craigy is keen to get the legs into the kids as well which is very encouraging. I hope McKernan gets a run soon, he's been terrific in the SANFL from all reports. Would be good to see in the last half of the season some of our most recent draftees getting a run.

I think most of us knew that we would be an inconsistent side this year due to our inexperienced squad. That's all fine as long as we see improvement from our kids, which I think we are.

Agree Hawthorn did it and were very inconsistent for the fist couple of years while they were blooding the youngsters and they had players like Frankflin, Roughhead, lewis etc but they gave them all game time.

 

[Coopers]

better this year than next

How so? Isn't it just as bad this year as next?

 

[jackster83]

We've got to remember that the sides we have lost to so far this year, are currently occupying the top 3 spots on the ladder.

This week we come up against the Bulldogs who are also 3-3 and are on a 3 game losing streak. The midfield is the area we need to improve in (rucks,clearances,delivery,etc) and this area is the Bulldogs strength. I'd like to see us win a few more clearances, which would give us a chance of getting the ball inside 50 before the opposition floods back.

I'm not sure who will win this week, but I expect either us to win in a tight one, or the Dogs to win in a blowout (depending on which Western Bulldogs team turns up).