The Gameday coach

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Look we are going backward and forwards here, firstly I havent just joined I was on here for a long while just havent used this sight because of some of the posts on here. My main point is if you have a winner in a position (as they say when you're on a good thing stick to it) like Watson in the bakline the last few weeks and Hendo 2 weeks ago (in the forward line) why change them especially when they are very young players like Watson, I couldnt give a stuff who they play up forward, but we have the possibility to develop Watson as a great Key Back, lets do that. The possibility of stuffing his confidence up by playing him up forward was high and the wrong move as was proven when he went bac and took all those marks.

I don't know that Watson had been a winner in his position the past few weeks. He had definitely been improving however.

Players have to be flexible, especially when we have so many injuries. Nobody can afford to be locked into one position if the team is stuggling and you are plugging holes. If Watson's confidence would be destroyed by one game forward and ruin him to be able to play back, then he has serious issues. The only thing that can destroy confidence for a defender is being played in defence and copping a bath. If anything, getting sent up forward or vice versa can be a welcome release of pressure from time to time.

I think you are completely overstating the damage it could have caused and completely dismissing the points raised about Watson's strengths vs Bower's strengths. Hindsight calls such as 'look how well Watson did when he went back' do nothing to address the options open to us. Coaches have to try things and if they try them for the right reasons, with a sound methodology, then they shouldn't be bagged in hindsight.

The Bulldogs defence is bigger than the Bulldogs forward line as well. Every reason to think that Jamo and Bower should be able to handle things down back. It didn't pan out that way as Jamo struggled to shift Cordy but that was a surprise to everybody.

 

[bluerooster]

I don't know that Watson had been a winner in his position the past few weeks. He had definitely been improving however.

Players have to be flexible, especially when we have so many injuries. Nobody can afford to be locked into one position if the team is stuggling and you are plugging holes. If Watson's confidence would be destroyed by one game forward and ruin him to be able to play back, then he has serious issues. The only thing that can destroy confidence for a defender is being played in defence and copping a bath. If anything, getting sent up forward or vice versa can be a welcome release of pressure from time to time.

I think you are completely overstating the damage it could have caused and completely dismissing the points raised about Watson's strengths vs Bower's strengths. Hindsight calls such as 'look how well Watson did when he went back' do nothing to address the options open to us. Coaches have to try things and if they try them for the right reasons, with a sound methodology, then they shouldn't be bagged in hindsight.

The Bulldogs defence is bigger than the Bulldogs forward line as well. Every reason to think that Jamo and Bower should be able to handle things down back. It didn't pan out that way as Jamo struggled to shift Cordy but that was a surprise to everybody.

I agree he has been improving so why destabalise this, its not hindsight believe me, i was worried that Ratts would do this before the game, anyway. I am glad he put him back where he belonged, once Watson has full confidence in the backline and that feeling of belonging at that level then by all means try to make him flexible otherwise do not stuff around a 10 game player because at that stage of their career they can be vulnerable.

I also think your wrong about the size of Cordy 200cm plus and Williams 194cm app as well as resting ruckman. I also like to think I can pick a forward after playing 25 yrs and Watson does not look like a forward at all.

Anyway bring on the Tigers lets kick there butts!

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

General down back? Seriously mate don't lie, Gibbs has never been a general down back, cutting off kicks because you're playing loose man is not being a general. Being a general down back means to instruct the defenders and set up the defensive structure, something that a Jamison or Scotland would do, and constantly beat your opponent. Gibbs has beaten opponents down there in the past no doubt, but he has never been a general down there.

Don't lie? Strong words mate. I never said he was the only one that did this. Scotland is a given. I have certainly seen Gibbs on numerous occasions, point out to teammates where to run, where to lead, where to switch play, and provide encouragement accordingly. We don't all see things the way you do.

Excessive bagging? I call a spade a spade, he continuously sits outside packs, doesn't chase hard, doens't win enough of his own ball and has had nearly no impact on any game this year. That's not bagging, that's attacking his game in areas that don't require talent apart from the impact aspect. His effort has been appalling and it is the result of him being spoon fed since day 1.

But if you make a point of posting everything he does you don't like in a game, then front up the next day to have another shot about why he has to play tagger, off topic I might add, how is it supposed to look? You said another mod accused you of hating Gibbs, but I haven't had this discussion with anybody, so is it merely coincidence that at least two mods have said something about it, without coordinating? Do you call out every error, every failed chase, that others players make?

No doubt you are passionate, and perhaps sometimes this can be detrimental to the way people express themselves, especially when it is a negative opinion you are passionate about.

Is it possible that you are not the coming across the way you think you are?

Joking around? You were talking shit about player's efforts BEFORE the game even started, IIRC making fun of people who wanted Thornton to be selected or those that were calling for younger players to get a shot like McInnes. So mocking other posters that use this forum just because their opinions differ to yours is ok, but actually talking about football and the player's efforts in each game isn't? LOL you're too funny

Got a link to these posts I made. I don't quite recall things the same way you do.

Hey, I comment on each game. Almost EVERY game Gibbs has been disappointing. That is not me being on some agenda, that's just me commenting based on what I saw from the team's performance. If Gibbs continuously plays half arsed, then I comment on it, not my fault he doesn't produce so often. In a game where half our side was missing Gibbs didn't really do much now did he?

I'm guessing that depends on what your expectations for him are, and what his role is on the day. He has had a down year, but has at least done enough to warrant more than one half positive comment out of every 7 or so, as evidenced in the last match day thread.

And you still fail to answer my very simple question. WHY is a #1 draft pick being reduced to the role of a TAGGER? Especially when half the side's out???

Maybe because he is generally pretty good at it? Maybe because we lack options to go with a tall midfielder who sets up play? His draft pick number has nothing to do with it.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I agree he has been improving so why destabalise this, its not hindsight believe me, i was worried that Ratts would do this before the game, anyway. I am glad he put him back where he belonged, once Watson has full confidence in the backline and that feeling of belonging at that level then by all means try to make him flexible otherwise do not stuff around a 10 game player because at that stage of their career they can be vulnerable.

I also think your wrong about the size of Cordy 200cm plus and Williams 194cm app as well as resting ruckman. I also like to think I can pick a forward after playing 25 yrs and Watson does not look like a forward at all.

Anyway bring on the Tigers lets kick there butts!

Cordy is a kid and Williams is a defender being played up forward. Nothing to send shivers down the spine.

Watson does not look like a forward? That's fine because I never said he was one. Nor do I think Bower is or Jamison is. Remember, they were our options. Did we ruin Casboult by bringing him in to play first ruck in his first game out of necessity?

You are ramming home the point that Watson is a better defender than forward and I do not disagree. I am merely saying he was theoretically a better option than Bower. Your 25 years of playing experience should tell you that Bower is not a forward either right? We simply needed to prevent the Dogs defence from taking marks as much as possible, and give Betts and Garlett more opportunities.

Rather than call it a coaching error playing Watson up forward instead of Bower, I'd prefer to call it a regrettable result of unavoidable circumstances. Not sure why you are so intent on panning Ratten over something so debatable.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Don't lie? Strong words mate. I never said he was the only one that did this. Scotland is a given. I have certainly seen Gibbs on numerous occasions, point out to teammates where to run, where to lead, where to switch play, and provide encouragement accordingly. We don't all see things the way you do.

Which games have you seen him do this? Against Brisbane and GC? You must do a lot of travelling to Melbourne if you actually watch games live to see this mate because they usually NEVER broadcast what players are doing behind play.

But if you make a point of posting everything he does you don't like in a game, then front up the next day to have another shot about why he has to play tagger, off topic I might add, how is it supposed to look? You said another mod accused you of hating Gibbs, but I haven't had this discussion with anybody, so is it merely coincidence that at least two mods have said something about it, without coordinating? Do you call out every error, every failed chase, that others players make?

How was I off topic??? The Gameday Coach, now it was a coaching move to play Gibbs as a tagger I merely question why this was done. Most definitely on-topic. And no I don't call out every player that doesn't put the effort in, but I have been critical of Lucas as well and also Garlett's efforts over the past couple months. Now yesterday I made a post praising Jeffy and was very pleased to see him turn his form around. The reason I'm harder on Gibbs is made up of a few things:

- Ratts, Judd & himself I believe all said he was going to have a break out year - I'm sick of talk anybody can talk
- He is supposed to be one of our leaders on the field
- He has the talent to be a top 5 player in the comp
- His lack of effort makes me feel that he takes for granted the opportunity to play for this club

No doubt you are passionate, and perhaps sometimes this can be detrimental to the way people express themselves, especially when it is a negative opinion you are passionate about.

Is it possible that you are not the coming across the way you think you are?

Maybe. I've already said I don't hate the guy I just see a deer in the headlights look on his face when he plays, there's no hunger in the way he attacks the ball and when our team is down and out he should've stepped up and given WAY more than he did.

Got a link to these posts I made. I don't quite recall things the same way you do.

No I don't have a link and I'm not the type to sift through posts people made weeks ago. tbh I don't really care about that but I do remember you making sarcastic comments about Thornton not playing which was an obvious dig at those that did want him in. But anyway as I said, I don't really care about that I just want to talk about the team's performance that includes the players and the coaching moves. When the team hasn't been going too well, there really aren't too many positive things to talk about are there? And when you've got a guy with Gibbs' ability, spraying kicks and not trying to win the ball surely that is going to generate discussion???

I'm guessing that depends on what your expectations for him are, and what his role is on the day. He has had a down year, but has at least done enough to warrant more than one half positive comment out of every 7 or so, as evidenced in the last match day thread.

I have very high expectations of him. I expect him to back up is words and repay the faith that his coach and captain have shown in him and have more of an impact on games because when he is on, we all of a sudden become much harder to beat. Problem is, you can't have an impact if you're just going to sit back and wait for something to happen. Surely there must be something inside his head telling him that hey, now's the time to show us what you got? We will need him against the Tigers this week. If he goes MIA again we will most likely lose.

Maybe because he is generally pretty good at it? Maybe because we lack options to go with a tall midfielder who sets up play? His draft pick number has nothing to do with it.

Actually his DP has a LOT to do with it imo. We didn't draft him to be a tagger, we drafted him to add class and be a future leader at the club. How can he use his skills if his job is to prevent the opposition's best on baller from having an impact? ANY decent mid can run with someone and hang off them and stop them from running properly. We had a good option in Curnow. Curnow is a guy that can run and is a great competitor but he also doesn't have the greatest disposal effectiveness whereas Gibbs does. How is it beneficial to keep a guy who generally has classy disposal skills practically out of the game by playing him as a tagger, when you've got another guy who does have the ability to run and also loves to compete in contests? Surely Curnow should've been the tagger right from the start.

Gibbs by now should be the one getting tagged, not the other way around. At the start of the year, I saw him playing as a midfield/resting forward role which I think is perfect for him. He can kick we all know that, why not play him up forward so he can kick a couple a game and get some confidence whilst doing damage as a midfielder? There's one simple answer to it and it's his work rate is not up to it. That's why Ratts is forced to play him down back or as a tagger to make him realise how hard you have to work to be a top mid. It's no surprise that Griffen was getting away from him, he can run all day such is his work rate. But seeing Gibbs plodding around is really frustrating when I know he could be capable of so much more. I wouldn't expect the same from say a guy like Ellard as I would Gibbs, would you? BUT I wish I could take Ellard's work rate and give it to Gibbs. What makes it even worse for me is work rate isn't a talent related thing, it's more to do with desire to succeed and respect for your club.

 

[The Coach]

Maybe. I've already said I don't hate the guy I just see a deer in the headlights look on his face when he plays, there's no hunger in the way he attacks the ball and when our team is down and out he should've stepped up and given WAY more than he did.

So according to this - maybe he just doesn't have it? You probably stopped expecting JR to be anything other than serviceable long ago (despite being a first rounder) so maybe if you listen to yourself - you need to move on as far as expecting top 5 in the AFL from Gibbs As you have implied - talent is not everything and going on your observations Gibbsy may not be the complete package.

 

[JustaBattler]

So according to this - maybe he just doesn't have it? You probably stopped expecting JR to be anything other than serviceable long ago (despite being a first rounder) so maybe if you listen to yourself - you need to move on as far as expecting top 5 in the AFL from Gibbs As you have implied - talent is not everything and going on your observations Gibbsy may not be the complete package.

I haven't seen any evidence that Gibbs has the ability to be a top 5 or top 10 or AA player. I don't particularly care about the issue.

He does do a very good job as a defender generally cool under pressure, generally beats his man in one on one competitions. Gibbs can also play forward and set up goals with his excellent kicking and he has shown an ability to sneak into position and take a mark kick a goal. Definitely a top10 player for us. Underestimated is his resilience - he doesn't miss a lot of football. He could bulk up a bit to play more inside role in the midfield - but I dont know if he has the tank to be an elite running mid like Murphy or Judd.

Can Gibbs go up another level? Probably - in a team with less injury maybe he will have less constraints and a greater attacking mindset. Will he ever be a Gary Ablett or Chris Judd or a gun mid? - Don't think so. What we don't know is how much it would cost us if he wasn't doing what he is doing - I suspect quite a few goals every game.

 

[dumb]

Bryce Gibbs was a #1 draft pick WHY is he being used as a tagger???

There should be no reason for it other than Mr Bryce not showing enough to warrant being played in the middle.

i can understand the frustration. but there's a wide gulf between playing as a negating, defensive tagger and playmaker and you can do both to some degree. i have my doubts it will happen, but i wish darcy would realize that. see carrazzo. kane cornes is another example. even ling. you don't have to give up the attacking side of the game when you follow a player. bryce just didn't do a good job of it this time, but he has in the past.
i do think they should mix it up though. let him off the leash now and then.

---

what i'm interested in is the change over half-time that happened in the team. why did they run out as they did, and did they cop a rocket? the players should be embarrassed at the first half they put in, they certainly played like there was some words had over the break.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

Sorry guys meant top 15 player not top 5, typo there. Anyways the point is the same, he is NOT producing enough.

 

[Claypigeon]

what i'm interested in is the change over half-time that happened in the team. why did they run out as they did, and did they cop a rocket? the players should be embarrassed at the first half they put in, they certainly played like there was some words had over the break.

Believe several players and even Ratts himself mentioned that Ratts gave them a serve at half time. ..

 

[mediumsizered]

I think there is little doubt that Gibbs has had a disappointing season this year, but having finished 3rd, 4th & 3rd in our B&F over the last 3 seasons, behind the likes of Judd & Murphy, we need to be careful not to undervalue what he has achieved in his career so far.

Players are entitled to have the occasional bad season; we should only be concerned if Gibbs backs it up with another disappointing season next year (Gibbs has finished Top 10 in our B&F in every season of his career so far).

 

[The Coach]

I think there is little doubt that Gibbs has had a disappointing season this year, but having finished 3rd, 4th & 3rd in our B&F over the last 3 seasons, behind the likes of Judd & Murphy, we need to be careful not to undervalue what he has achieved in his career so far.

Players are entitled to have the occasional bad season; we should only be concerned if Gibbs backs it up with another disappointing season next year (Gibbs has finished Top 10 in our B&F in every season of his career so far).

ps We are not saying he is perfect (Gibbs that is)

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Which games have you seen him do this? Against Brisbane and GC? You must do a lot of travelling to Melbourne if you actually watch games live to see this mate because they usually NEVER broadcast what players are doing behind play.

During a switch of plays, around the stoppages. He's not telling them where to run when the ball is nowhere near them.

How was I off topic??? The Gameday Coach, now it was a coaching move to play Gibbs as a tagger I merely question why this was done.

Followed by the assumption it was because he was not up to going in the midfield. I'm not the only one who picked up on it.

No I don't have a link and I'm not the type to sift through posts people made weeks ago. tbh I don't really care about that but I do remember you making sarcastic comments about Thornton not playing which was an obvious dig at those that did want him in.

I doubt it. Last game I even suggested he should come in. What I do object to, and what I may get sarcastic about, is when people use the selection of a player they don't like or the non selection of a player they do like, or the swing from week to week, in order to have a cheap shot at the coach. It's self serving and short sighted IMO.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

I think there is little doubt that Gibbs has had a disappointing season this year, but having finished 3rd, 4th & 3rd in our B&F over the last 3 seasons, behind the likes of Judd & Murphy, we need to be careful not to undervalue what he has achieved in his career so far.

Well only time will tell but throughout his career he has never been one to run hard or win his own ball. When Murhpy and Judd are playing well and feeding it to him that's when he tends to play well but if those 2 are down then he is generally down too.

He has shown me this year that when the chips are down he cannot be relied upon to lead his side to victory.

Players are entitled to have the occasional bad season; we should only be concerned if Gibbs backs it up with another disappointing season next year (Gibbs has finished Top 10 in our B&F in every season of his career so far).

Now I cannot agree with this. Player's are NOT entitled to an occasional bad season especially when they have a big contract at the club. I understand they're not robots and they can't play their best every time but being entitled to be down for a whole season? Nope, not good enough, have a poor patch for a month MAX but after that it is inexcusable imo. The club isn't forking out for a high profile player such as him to not have an impact for a whole season. His body is right, we've put everything in place to help him reach his potential now is the time to deliver.

 

[Tanks_Alot]

During a switch of plays, around the stoppages. He's not telling them where to run when the ball is nowhere near them.

So Gibbs is telling players where to run is he? Well that's a new one on me because I don't see him running hard like he should be when the ball's not in our hands. And could you please give me the games that you have seen him do this I know it's hard to recall the exact games but surely you must remember a couple. I would like to rewatch those games and see it for myself.

Followed by the assumption it was because he was not up to going in the midfield. I'm not the only one who picked up on it.

Sorry, but that does not make it off topic. I questioned a coaching move then I gave a reason as to why I thought it was made. You only WANT to make it look like it was off topic to give yourself some form of justification, you know perfectly well that it was on topic.

It was a move that I couldn't fathom considering we had half our team out and so I simply put a reason as to perhaps why it was made. People just want to make me look like some troll because they've got nothing better to do with their lives, truth is I'm not anywhere near as deluded as "these people" are and I actually care about where our club is heading and when there are players who have the chance to play for Carlton and put in SFA efforts especially when they're capable of doing a lot better that's when I speak out on here.

I doubt it. Last game I even suggested he should come in. What I do object to, and what I may get sarcastic about, is when people use the selection of a player they don't like or the non selection of a player they do like, or the swing from week to week, in order to have a cheap shot at the coach. It's self serving and short sighted IMO.

Don't doubt me I don't lie. And you may well have suggested that he come in, but in that particular week leading up to the game there were a few posters that wanted him in and they were making their case that they weren't happy with Ratts for not selecting him for so long considering our injured KPP stocks. Also that form of sarcasm is hardly appropriate for a match day or pre match autopsy thread (I can't quite remember which thread it was exactly). That is a time where Carlton supporters are getting excited about a match and want to hear opinions regarding whether we will win or lose and what we will need to rely on to get the job done, not some stupid unnecessary things like that. You were not the only one btw there were many others joining in with you clogging the thread up with stuff that's not related and doesn't matter only to take a shot at the opinions of others on this board.

If you look back at my posts in the match day threads about 20-30 mins BEFORE the Collingwood game and the Bulldogs game started I made my point about how I thought we would win, so no I'm not -ve all the time like people make out. I just call it how I see it.

I also don't appreciate being compared to a Russell basher. First of all I've NEVER joined in the Russell bashing I have criticised some games that he's played but that was mainly post 2010. But my main point about this is that the Russell bashers were excessively abusive toward him not only as a player but also as a person at times. I don't think it's fair to compare me to those types of people when all I've done is have a go at Gibbs' effort this season and given my thoughts on why he has been playing with what seems to be a careless approach. I haven't called for him to be shot, I haven't abused him as a person, I've attacked his GAME and given his results this year I feel justified in doing so. Each poor performance has warranted a -ve comment and lbh there have been a lot of poor passages of play by him this year that I can understand that you think I'm on some agenda to start getting some Gibbs bashing going on here at BF, but I assure you that isn't my intention.

Also, one last thing, you will find that I'm not the only one that feels this way about Gibbs so there has to be some truth in what I'm saying for many others to feel the same way. And that's not just here on BF btw.