Society/Culture The Intersectionality Calculator

[RobbieK]

Should the accumulated persistence and achievements of your forebears be dismissed as luck?

My grandfather was an orphan peasant in fascist Italy. He jumped on to the roof of a train and traveled north as the Americans liberated the south, getting up to Rome. There he worked in the laundry of the US military base, a black GI gave him his first pair of shoes at age 16 (they gave him blisters). He ended up joining the military and saved up enough money to get himself Australia, where he worked multiple jobs seven days a week in order to save up to bring his wife over and buy a property just outside Sydney. His daughter, my mother, was born shortly after he arrived in Australia. She didn't speak English before she arrived at primary school. Despite that challenge, and despite not having much in the way of resources or support from the family for academic achievement, she worked very hard and achieved an excellent HSC result. She went to medical school in one of the best universities in the country, got the University Medal, and now is the head of a department at one of the biggest hospitals in the city.

When I say that I am very lucky that I was born in to this family when I did, I am not dismissing the hard work, sacrifices and persistence in the face of great adversity that my immediate forebears had to endure so that I could have a childhood in which I really did not lack for anything. I am simply acknowledging that I didn't do any of that work myself, I didn't have to make the sacrifices, someone else did and by chance that means I get a much easier life full of opportunities that a couple of generations ago my family would never dreamed of.

By chance other people will not be so lucky, they will be born into a different family in a different situation and will not have the same opportunities in life as I will. I am not a better person than them, I am not more deserving than them. Like my grandfather and my mother they will need to work harder to overcome being born in to a family from a lower socio-economic background or in to a family of migrants potentially facing racial prejudice on a result of their ethnicity. Maybe the barriers they face will be such that no matter how much work they do they will never be able to get the opportunities that I had before I even had to lift a finger.

It is good for me to remember all this for a few reasons. Firstly, so I don't take credit for things I haven't earned or achieved myself, to keep me humble and honest. Secondly, so I don't use that unearned position to perpetuate (unwittingly or otherwise) prejudices or barriers that I was lucky enough not to have to encounter.

 

[its free real estate]

Like my grandfather and my mother they will need to work harder to overcome being born in to a family from a lower socio-economic background or in to a family of migrants potentially facing racial prejudice on a result of their ethnicity.

What if these setbacks narrow the focus?

Almost everyone in Australia, aside from people like Hamish McLachlan, has one of these stories.

 

[RobbieK]

What if these setbacks narrow the focus?

Almost everyone in Australia, aside from people like Hamish McLachlan, has one of these stories.

So it is a privilege to be underprivileged because it forces you to work harder? Yeah... not buying that one. I don't think you will get many other takers for it either.

I never claimed my story was particularly unique, I just told it to demonstrate how you can acknowledge yourself to be lucky without being dismissive of the work and achievements of your forebears. That others might have similar stories doesn't change the fundamental point, though, that some of us have the luck to be born in to more/less auspicious circumstances than others through no merit/fault of our own. If we are to have a society that judges and values individuals based on their own merit (and I think we do want that), then that is something that should be taken in to account.

 

[its free real estate]

So it is a privilege to be underprivileged because it forces you to work harder? Yeah... not buying that one. I don't think you will get many other takers for it either.

It’s not a privilege, it simply is. Your grandfather, did he feel resentment towards those who were better off than him? Or did he strive because he saw opportunity for his children?

When he was given shoes by the black GI, who was the more privileged?

 

[RobbieK]

It’s not a privilege, it simply is. Your grandfather, did he feel resentment towards those who were better off than him? Or did he strive because he saw opportunity for his children?

When he was given shoes by the black GI, who was the more privileged?

You don't like people to take on "victim status". I get it. I don't think there is anything to be gained from it either.

Does me acknowledging my privilege necessarily render those with less privilege a "victim"? I don't think so. We will never even out the playing field in life completely, there will always be way too many things out of our control. That doesn't mean we shouldn't address systemic inequalities when we identify them and there are systematic inequalities within our society.

 

[its free real estate]

That doesn't mean we shouldn't address systemic inequalities when we identify them and there are systematic inequalities within our society.

How do we know when inequalities are systematic as opposed to natural?

 

[RobbieK]

How do we know when inequalities are systematic as opposed to natural?

You do a bunch of quantitative and qualitative data analysis.

Certainly it is not always easy to identify when a trend towards inequality is a reflection of some sort of systematic prejudice (conscious or not). But again, just because it isn't always going to be easy and just because we aren't ever going to create a totally perfect level playing field isn't a reason to continue to work to improve things.

 

[Frank Bunn]

My grandfather was an orphan peasant in fascist Italy. He jumped on to the roof of a train and traveled north as the Americans liberated the south, getting up to Rome. There he worked in the laundry of the US military base, a black GI gave him his first pair of shoes at age 16 (they gave him blisters). He ended up joining the military and saved up enough money to get himself Australia, where he worked multiple jobs seven days a week in order to save up to bring his wife over and buy a property just outside Sydney. His daughter, my mother, was born shortly after he arrived in Australia. She didn't speak English before she arrived at primary school. Despite that challenge, and despite not having much in the way of resources or support from the family for academic achievement, she worked very hard and achieved an excellent HSC result. She went to medical school in one of the best universities in the country, got the University Medal, and now is the head of a department at one of the biggest hospitals in the city.

When I say that I am very lucky that I was born in to this family when I did, I am not dismissing the hard work, sacrifices and persistence in the face of great adversity that my immediate forebears had to endure so that I could have a childhood in which I really did not lack for anything. I am simply acknowledging that I didn't do any of that work myself, I didn't have to make the sacrifices, someone else did and by chance that means I get a much easier life full of opportunities that a couple of generations ago my family would never dreamed of.

By chance other people will not be so lucky, they will be born into a different family in a different situation and will not have the same opportunities in life as I will. I am not a better person than them, I am not more deserving than them. Like my grandfather and my mother they will need to work harder to overcome being born in to a family from a lower socio-economic background or in to a family of migrants potentially facing racial prejudice on a result of their ethnicity. Maybe the barriers they face will be such that no matter how much work they do they will never be able to get the opportunities that I had before I even had to lift a finger.

It is good for me to remember all this for a few reasons. Firstly, so I don't take credit for things I haven't earned or achieved myself, to keep me humble and honest. Secondly, so I don't use that unearned position to perpetuate (unwittingly or otherwise) prejudices or barriers that I was lucky enough not to have to encounter.

Your grandfather and mother did not achieve what they did in life because of luck. They made good choices and worked hard. Such personal qualities will almost always improve a person's life and that of their families regardless of circumstances. Identifying as some kind of victim will generally do the opposite.

Your 'privilege' is a result of your forbears' good qualities not due to systemic societal inequalities.

 

[RobbieK]

Your grandfather and mother did not achieve what they did in life because of luck. They made good choices and worked hard. Such personal qualities will almost always improve a person's life and that of their families regardless of circumstances. Identifying as some kind of victim will generally do the opposite.

Your 'privilege' is a result of your forbears' good qualities not due to systemic societal inequalities.

I never said my forebears were lucky. I said I was lucky that they were my forebears. They did work hard and make good choices, hard enough and good enough to overcome a number of systemic barriers to success in life (being born in to poverty, being abandoned as a child, needing to make life work in a country where they didn't speak the language etc.). That they were able to do succeed despite these barriers is not evidence that the barriers did not exist or were not meaningful. It is to their great credit that they were able to overcome them.

I don't understand why everyone continues to bring up victimhood as if a discussion of privilege necessitates it. To say that my grandfather and mother had to struggle against structural inequalities is not to say that they were "victims" of society. It is just a statement of fact. They had a harder time of it than someone who was born in to a position of greater privilege who didn't have to fight all the battles that they did to get where they did.

Likewise, it is a statement of fact that I was lucky to be born in to this particular family when I was. My family's circumstances had changed and societal circumstances had changed such that when I was born systemic social inequalities were now working in my favour rather than against me. Even if I was to accept your statement that my privilege is not to do with systemic societal inequalities, you yourself make it clear that my privilege is not down to anything that I have actually done myself.

I don't see why a discussion of privilege necessitates all this talk of victim hood. Can't we acknowledge and address structural inequalities in society without invoking this narrative? I'm not denying that there are people who do invoke the narrative, on both sides of the issue, I'm just saying that it isn't necessary or useful.

 

[its free real estate]

I never said my forebears were lucky. I said I was lucky that they were my forebears. They did work hard and make good choices, hard enough and good enough to overcome a number of systemic barriers to success in life (being born in to poverty, being abandoned as a child, needing to make life work in a country where they didn't speak the language etc.). That they were able to do succeed despite these barriers is not evidence that the barriers did not exist or were not meaningful. It is to their great credit that they were able to overcome them.

I don't understand why everyone continues to bring up victimhood as if a discussion of privilege necessitates it. To say that my grandfather and mother had to struggle against structural inequalities is not to say that they were "victims" of society. It is just a statement of fact. They had a harder time of it than someone who was born in to a position of greater privilege who didn't have to fight all the battles that they did to get where they did.

Likewise, it is a statement of fact that I was lucky to be born in to this particular family when I was. My family's circumstances had changed and societal circumstances had changed such that when I was born systemic social inequalities were now working in my favour rather than against me. Even if I was to accept your statement that my privilege is not to do with systemic societal inequalities, you yourself make it clear that my privilege is not down to anything that I have actually done myself.

I don't see why a discussion of privilege necessitates all this talk of victim hood. Can't we acknowledge and address structural inequalities in society without invoking this narrative? I'm not denying that there are people who do invoke the narrative, on both sides of the issue, I'm just saying that it isn't necessary or useful.

If someone looked at your mother’s success and obvious upper-middle class status and wealth, would they be wrong to call her privileged?

Where does privilege begin and end?

 

[Seeds]

Everything that results from something we ourselves have no control over is due to luck
from our perspective. Luck/privlege or lack thereof just means something that affects us that we dont have complete control over. Its a fairly easy concept.

The only time this gets murky is we are talking about the attributes of our own consciousness and mental capabilities.

 

[Frank Bunn]

I never said my forebears were lucky. I said I was lucky that they were my forebears. They did work hard and make good choices, hard enough and good enough to overcome a number of systemic barriers to success in life (being born in to poverty, being abandoned as a child, needing to make life work in a country where they didn't speak the language etc.). That they were able to do succeed despite these barriers is not evidence that the barriers did not exist or were not meaningful. It is to their great credit that they were able to overcome them.

I don't understand why everyone continues to bring up victimhood as if a discussion of privilege necessitates it. To say that my grandfather and mother had to struggle against structural inequalities is not to say that they were "victims" of society. It is just a statement of fact. They had a harder time of it than someone who was born in to a position of greater privilege who didn't have to fight all the battles that they did to get where they did.

Likewise, it is a statement of fact that I was lucky to be born in to this particular family when I was. My family's circumstances had changed and societal circumstances had changed such that when I was born systemic social inequalities were now working in my favour rather than against me. Even if I was to accept your statement that my privilege is not to do with systemic societal inequalities, you yourself make it clear that my privilege is not down to anything that I have actually done myself.

I don't see why a discussion of privilege necessitates all this talk of victim hood. Can't we acknowledge and address structural inequalities in society without invoking this narrative? I'm not denying that there are people who do invoke the narrative, on both sides of the issue, I'm just saying that it isn't necessary or useful.

Theories of intersectionality posit that some people benefit from the white hetero-normative patriarchal system - and others are oppressed by it. Surely those who are oppressed are victims?

The problem is that you can always add another dimension to the privilege such as able-bodied, intelligent, wealthy, tall, good looking, English speaking, middle class, mother is head of a department at one of the biggest hospitals in the city etc. And you can always add dimensions to the oppression groups and form a hierarchy.

You don't like the word victimhood, but you want to 'acknowledge and address structural inequalities in society'. It sounds a lot like trying to create equal outcomes. What usually results by attempts to create equal outcomes is a power play between 'oppressed' groups for government funding to redress those inequalities. And often a bun fight within members of the 'oppressed' group for who controls that money. That is when the focus on addressing the 'structural inequalities in society' can actually encourage victimhood.

Given your family history how can you determine whether you are privileged or a victim on the intersectionality scale? I reckon the whole concept isn't necessary or useful.

 

[Frank Bunn]

Everything that results from something we ourselves have no control over is due to luck
from our perspective. Luck/privlege or lack thereof just means something that affects us that we dont have complete control over. Its a fairly easy concept.

The only time this gets murky is we are talking about the attributes of our own consciousness and mental capabilities.

I think it's generally assumed humans are rational creatures. But the 'murky' area is probably greater than most people would acknowledge. There's a lot of evidence that shows we are rationalising rather than rational beings.

I would recommend Robert Cialdini as a first read. I would highly recommend his books 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' and his more recent book 'Pre-suasion'.

Another good book you might like is the Luck Factor. Written by a scientist, Dr Richard Wiseman, it documents how things we see as 'luck' are actually the result of good and bad habits.

 

[its free real estate]

I think it's generally assumed humans are rational creatures. But the 'murky' area is probably greater than most people would acknowledge. There's a lot of evidence that shows we are rationalising rather than rational beings.

I would recommend Robert Cialdini as a first read. I would highly recommend his books 'Influence: The Psychology of Persuasion' and his more recent book 'Pre-suasion'.

Another good book you might like is the Luck Factor. Written by a scientist, Dr Richard Wiseman, it documents how things we see as 'luck' are actually the result of good and bad habits.

There is some luck, complete boneheads like Tom Browne a case in point.

 

[Seeds]

There is some luck, complete boneheads like Tom Browne a case in point.

And should everyone get to keep the benefits of their luck or should the government be able to intervene and redistribute the benefits to maximise the average persons utility?

 

[its free real estate]

And should everyone get to keep the benefits of their luck or should the government be able to intervene and redistribute the benefits to maximise the average persons utility?

I think the government should pass a law to keep Tom Browne from conducting post match interviews.

 

[Jibroni]

I think the government should pass a law to keep Tom Browne from conducting post match interviews.

And Cameron Ling.

 

[Contra Mundum]

Ridiculous tool, I played around with the sensitivity and apparently being rich or poor has little impact, going by this tool trolley guy is more privileged than Gina Rinehart. Yet another theory designed to convince the working class that the reason they’re struggling is the person working next to them and not socioeconomics.

Its designed for right wing cry bullies to tut tut and feel self satisfied about their view of the world.

 

[Fat Yak]

Jacinta Nampijinpa Price was live.

7 hrs ·
This concept of privilege

 

[Frank Bunn]

Jacinta Nampijinpa Price was live.

7 hrs ·
This concept of privilege

Your post looks a bit weird with just the top of her head on the image. But it was really worth watching her video. She's speaking off the cuff and from the heart.

She says it's a privilege to have both indigenous and western heritage. She embraces her mixed background and recognises the elements of her indigenous culture that are enriching or detrimental. She says - We should share the elements that are enriching. We are all human. And leave behind what is detrimental for us.

Her indigenous grandfather had it very tough but would never see himself as a victim. Because being a victim is locking yourself up, being oppressed. To overcome that is the ultimate freedom, to the stand on your own two feet. Her son has had good opportunities but rejects those provided by indigenous bias alone.

A MASSIVE IDEA FROM HER - if I have experienced pain in my life, it is my duty not to pass it on to my children.