The Live Strategy and Content Thread

[ashley12]

Over the last few months I have noticed that both the Burswood thread and the Crown thread have been used more as a notice of trip reports and posting of notable hands rather then any kind of strategy based conversations. Its not that this is a bad thing, but I think that it would be good to have a thread for the posting of strategy related hands and concepts to talk about. This, combined with the fact that I am now on university break from now till the end of Febuary, means I have a decent amount of spare time on my hands to hopefully make this thing work.

My basic plan is to each week (or whenever I get around to it) is to post a topic of the week, and write up my own personal opinion on that topic and its application to live cash games and tournaments. When that is done, hopefully everyone comes out of the woodwork and between all of us we can bounce around enough ideas so that we can all improve our games because of it.

Some of the concepts I was looking at expanding upon, not necessarily in this order but 1) and 2) are probably best to start on.

Live poker basics.
Starting ranges and position including 3betting.
C-Betting.
Turn and River betsizing.
Playing Draws.
OOP play from the blinds and Postflop.
Checkraising vs Donking into the PFR.
Adjusting our play to different types of opponents.
Bluffing and floating.
Value betting thinner.
Tournament play.

Im not claiming to know everything about every topic, or to have solved NL live, but I am really hoping that we can spark some discussion on this forum.

If anyone has any other topics or anything else to mention feel free.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Some that could be interesting:

Board texture & C-betting might be a good one to get started IMO.

Slow-playing IP/OOP.

River bluff-raising (how not to get looked up by the 11th nuts) is one that may be particularly relevant to me haha.

 

[ashley12]

River bluff raising....

Dont do it

Easy

Spoiler

But in all seriousness, in my games their isnt a heap of point to it all. Hypothetical hand where you check-raise the river with just the naked A on a three heart board that is unpaired.

Assuming you would never check-raise the 3rd nuts for value for this size of a bet (or anything lower obviously), we realise that if our villian holds KX his hand is purely a bluff catcher, since our range solely comprises of nut flushes and bluffs. Of which % of each is up to your own game as to how much you have of each in your range.

That is all well and good, the problem is that most villians wont view their hand as a bluff-catcher when they are check-raised on the river. They see that they have the second nuts and act accordingly regardless of your betting frequencies. Acting accordingly being the bet/call of course.

Are their spots to bluff the river? Maybe, but in my game most people are showdown monkeys so I am far more likely to turn 5 high into a bluff then any one pair hand since very few people will value bet a one pair hand and fold to a raise.

Conclusion: People barely ever have a bet/folding range, so raise bluffing has little merits in live games. Bluff betting on the other hand is a whole different kettle of fish.

But in all seriousness, I dont know exactly what background most of the lurkers/part-time posters are at. I might do some stuff on poker basics and everyone will look at me like I am typing Spanish. I might have everyone ignore my post talking about donking since donking is the new checkraising at NL20K or whatever the kids are doing now, and I am so 2000 and late or whatever...

Some feedback about what particular people want would be cool, but, yeah, we will see.

Im going away for a week or so as of Thursday out of town, but will try and post the first "discussion" either tomorrow or if I run out of time when I get back. If anyone has any particular points to "beginning to play live" then I would love to hear them.

Another few topics I might cover later

Implied odds and RIO's (somewhat linked to draws)
6th street (away from the table play)
MMW (massively multiway) pots

 

[Ricketts]

What about straddles?

It was on at $1/$2 last night.

UTG straddles (blind raises?) to $15, few folds, one caller $15, I have A9 offsuit and was down to about $85*, so I went all in. Straddler folds, "caller" of $15 calls me with AQ and he wins.

I was assuming the $33 pot was dead money.

I guess the moral of the story is that players at $1/$2 are more focussed on the $$$$ value of the chips, rather than the actual poker play itself.

I mean, Mr AQ no doubt opens somewhere between $8-$15 in a non-straddled pot, so why no raise on top of the $15 from a guy who hasn't even seen his cards yet?

Will be happy to be proven wrong by those here that play more often than I do.





*I usually top up from my pocket to the $120, but I'd been there all day and was out of top-up chips and pocket was empty.

 

[JuddsABlue]

I think Basic live poker is the best way to start and get peoples brains ticking. River Bluff Raising can be quite a heavy topic and something that people wont want to slog through

A problem with it can be the river raise often wont fall into any standard lines that you've taken on previous streets, causing the 'curious' call from bad players and 11th nut call from decent players who know what you've done makes no sense.

I was river bluffed raise about 3 sessions ago at 2/5 and made the pretty easy call with a bad 2 pair. Opponenent was repping an Ax type hand for aces up, but it was never going to work because

a) he joined a fellow limper by limping in the HJ, something this type of player never does with medium/strong aces. A2-5 possibly, but hes raising that more than limping

b) his check back on the flop of Axxdd still makes no sense for any Ax type hands when 4 ways, needs to betting for both value and protection

c) I lead out one the turn with bottom pair which he flats. if a sneaky Ax thats caught 2 pair is in the hand I think we're going to hear about it with still 2 other players in the hand

Now I catch my paint card for 2 pair, and lead out again for value and he in rythm makes a 2.8-3x raise. It doesnt doesnt make sense. Flush draw missed, for the reasons above the Ax hands arent possible. I call and get the 'good call' and his hand goes into the muck

It often looks like hes trying to outbluff me on my badly played diamond draw as well, giving more incentive to call off single pair hands. I dont explain theory very well but if that makes sense then great, but the point I'm trying to make is its just very hard to do and needs to be in your range of thinking much earlier than the river.

But something along the lines of Basic live poker is a good way to start

I remember when I was told by someone they only played Aces with a ten or better, I couldnt believe it lol. Some very basic info can go a long way

 

[JuddsABlue]

What about straddles?

It was on at $1/$2 last night.

UTG straddles (blind raises?) to $15, few folds, one caller $15, I have A9 offsuit and was down to about $85*, so I went all in. Straddler folds, "caller" of $15 calls me with AQ and he wins.

I was assuming the $33 pot was dead money.

I guess the moral of the story is that players at $1/$2 are more focussed on the $$$$ value of the chips, rather than the actual poker play itself.

I mean, Mr AQ no doubt opens somewhere between $8-$15 in a non-straddled pot, so why no raise on top of the $15 from a guy who hasn't even seen his cards yet?

Will be happy to be proven wrong by those here that play more often than I do.





*I usually top up from my pocket to the $120, but I'd been there all day and was out of top-up chips and pocket was empty.

'Why' cant really be explained. Generally players at 1/2 arent sure why theyre doing anything, theyre just reacting to the cards theyre given.

If hes putting $15 with AQ when its unopened, then to him the $15 is already there, why does he want to make it $45? Thats way more than hes willing to put in with AQ preflop. Hes not thinking about the dead money at all

The A9 squeeze isnt bad, but at a 1/2 table I think you often need to assume someone is calling the blind raise with a better part of their range. You'll probably also get called a lot with bad kings and possible worse Aces (havent played 1/2 in years so I could be wrong with std calling ranges).

Also to be a nit its not a straddle, its a blind raise. Straddles are double the big blind and the player has the last option preflop. $15 is 7x the BB and he has no option, it just a raise without looking at his cards, the same thing can be done from any position really

 

[ashley12]

Alright, its a bit of a ramble and basically proves to my Year 12 English teacher I have the prose skills of a drunken bogan but anyway, here goes. Apologies for the formating

Beginning to play poker....

To begin, we need to ask ourselves what we want to get out of poker. Do we want to earn as much $$$$ as we can? Do we want to improve our game and challenge our minds? Do we want to just get blind drunk and make gamble? Interestingly enough, no particular answer is right or wrong. There are a number of reasons to play poker, and if it was purely from a financial perspective then a large number of people (the losers in the game, after all, poker is zero sum equity) wouldn’t play, since we cant all win, and from personal knowledge it isn’t as if the casino themselves are losing money hand over fist spreading poker games. Even purely for the challenge is a fine reason to play, I mean, ask Guy Laliberte (Rich guy losing millions of dollars to Ivey, Durrr and co...)

When we begin to improve ourselves as poker players the first thing we need to do is classify we were are in our game now, and where we want to be. From there, we can find out what improvements we need to make to take our game get to our goal destination and getting what we want out of poker.
As I see it, there are 4 general levels of players. They are

1) The stereotypical gambling player. This type of player simply plays for the gamble. Generally relatively aggressive compared to other players with no real care for the overall financial results of their playing. A sign of this is that this type of player is also known for playing table games as well. General weaknesses are playing too many hands and playing them too hard.
2) The weak-tight wannabe pro. They know a number of poker theories and concepts, and probably know the odds of hitting a flush draw, but in general play to passively and take weird lines. They misapply certain poker concepts they heard, most likely from the WPT or WSOP coverage, and miss easy value. Just because Durrr will not pay off with worse on the river doesn’t mean Joe Average wont. A key indicator someone is in this group is the fact that they won’t top up at any time, and possibly will look at their stack size in a “tournament fashion” talking about a stack size that can “still do damage” and “still see flops” despite the fact they can top up their 15bb stack whenever they want. They are above the gambling player, but not by as much as many, including themselves, would think.
3) The breakeven nit. The kind of person that just loves to complain. Again, similar to player 2, they miss a lot of value and in general tend to play quite faceup. Problem for good players is while they are exploitable, their play is generally correct in certain spots, because even if I am exploiting a certain player, the other 90% of the player pool are paying them off in certain spots, so they can get away with a lot of fundamental mistakes, such as never folding overpairs. A common trait of these people is complaining when other people play bad, even though it is a positive for them in a zero sum game, such as not folding a weak hand and sucking out, or calling big raises with marginal holdings.
4) To quote Phil Laak, the wizards. Everyone likes to think they are in this category, but few are, and even fewer are in this category for a large % of the time they are playing, where tilt, boredom etc... move them into one of the other categories. They do all the right things in general, they bet/fold rather then check/call where the money goes in “better”, they only draw when the odds dictate and in general play a solid tight aggressive game. A good way of identifying a “wizard” is that they are raising more often then limping preflop, playing a higher % of hands in position then not and aren’t showing hands and basically aren’t doing anything that leaves you jaw on the ground.

No matter where we are on this scale, we want to be at level 4 obviously if we are playing poker for the aim of playing as best we can and making money. If you are fortunate enough to be in a spot where the money you play for absolutely doesn’t matter to you, and you have no intent to improve your game, then disregard everything in this post, and continue on losing at 30bb/100 for as long as you like.

So how do we get to number 4, assuming we that is where we want to be? There are a number of common mistakes I see players make regularly at the lower limits. Some of them I will get into more detail a little bit later on, but for the most part these are some of the common mistakes I see people make, and why.

OPEN LIMPING: There are situations where limping can be profitable, even open limping, but for the most part people do this too much.
Open limping is when no-one has yet voluntarily put money into the pot, and as the first person to do so, elects to just call the big blind rather then raise the size of the bet. There are plenty of times this can be correct (its a loose passive table where NO-ONE is raising, you have a pocket pair where you want many people to play so that if you get lucky and hit a set, at least one person can pay you off etc...). In general though, to many people get “optimistic” with weak hands like KTo and 64s from EP. Inevitably, someone behind raises and they get in a tough spot having to either forfeit their limp, or play a pot out of position vs someone who clearly has a pretty good hand. Il cover this more later.

PLAYING HANDS ON ABSOLUTE VALUE RATHER THEN RELATIVE VALUE: Imagine you have pocket kings, and there is a king on the board. This is a great hand obviously. But this isn’t true if the board is KQJT4. Then our hand is terrible from a relatively sense, as any A or 9 beats us. If our opponent puts out a big bet, its relatively obvious that they have an ace most of the time. However, people will still call the bet because the ABSOLUTE strength of their hand is great, but the relative strength compared to what their opponent has is terrible. This thinking is not the way to go.

There are a few others that I will get to next time, but these two are the biggest as well as the easily solvable problem of playing too many hands.
A few other random points I want to cover but am running out of time in my day to get this typed up.

BANKROLL: If you have an alternate source of income and plenty of it, bankroll really doesn’t matter for a life point of view. However, treating poker seriously it is nice to have a separation of monies for poker and other expenditures.

If you are playing for a serious % of your life income, the number of BI’s for each level can be different depending on your perceived edge in the game and expected standard deviation of your winrate. If I was playing poker purely for a living I would want to have 50 buyins plus at least 6 months of living expenses on the safe side, but you could get away with a lot less.

PLAYING TIMES: As a social poker player, the biggest advantage you have is that you don’t need to get in a fixed number of hours each week or month at the tables. If you would rather go to the pub and sink a few beers, you can. Only play when you want to and don’t feel forced to sit your arse down and play if you would rather go to the beach or cricket instead.

I will probably add to this at some points as well. If anyone wants some more info on any particular area let me know.

 

[ashley12]

Ricketts, about the hand you played...

Most people at the lower levels will assign an amount they think each hand is worth preflop. For example, they might call with KJs if I raise to $15 at a 2/5 table, but they wont call for $25.

What they dont do in particular is think about HOW the money goes in. Once it reaches a certain threshold, they will only put in passive actions, but not necessarily will they fold their hands for whatever amount of money.

It explains a lot why some people, even when they tell me that I raise a lot, will still flat me with hands as strong as QQ and even KK because they cant fathom the thought of putting in too much without the nuts, since I could have AA. This despite the fact that if I open say, 10% of hands, I would have AA around 5% of the time and worse a whole lot more.

That said, I like the shove depending on what ranges you assign to the caller. The blind raiser is put in a no-win situation. If he only calls with hands better then A9o, he is going to be folding his $15 so often that your shove is instantly profitable against him. The more hands he calls you with, the more likely he gets his money in bad vs A9o in particular, and more importantly your shipping range in general. This all got covered pretty well by JuddsaBlue.

If there is one major thing to take from this story, its that just because we may think logically in a certain spot, doesnt mean everyone else does. As well as that, we are fortunate enough that poker is such a funny game that when people make this kind of mistakes (just calling with AQ the first time) that the occasinal positive re-inforcement of winning the hand allows them to continue making these kind of mistakes.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Wizards imo more likely to be LAG rather than TAG.

Would be more likely to add a fifth category of player the ultra-standard TAG pro/semi-pro, who complains on a similar level if not more than a breakeven nit, and most likely has a very slight edge over the game. These players have a massive chip on their shoulder and will remember the time your AJ beat their KK when all the money went in on a JT6 flop.

Likes to bumhunt, table-switch and will insta-quit when they have >3BI on the table.

 

[Ricketts]

...bumhunt?

 

[checkraiseulite]

Spot a weak player/fish/spewmonkey at a different table and insta-whine to the sup that they want to get transferred to that table. Or come walk through the high limit (2/5 high limit lulz) area to look for fish, when everyone looks solid deciding to play 2/3 or not play.

Will always lock up a seat to the left of a fish as well should it become available, this often leads to the fish figuring out whats going on and leaving.

It's a huge problem online too. If you are on stars and esvedra or scout326 come sit in a game, watch the wait list be instantly 30 long. HU too, there will be like 50 players sitting at $1/2 that are just waiting for a fish to come and spew some money.

When I was playing HU with a new SN, I'd always get action straight away, we'd play a couple of hundred hands and quite often they'd quit when they figured I wasn't a complete *******, no matter who was up/down.

Kills action in the long run.

 

[ashley12]

Wizards imo more likely to be LAG rather than TAG.

Would be more likely to add a fifth category of player the ultra-standard TAG pro/semi-pro, who complains on a similar level if not more than a breakeven nit, and most likely has a very slight edge over the game. These players have a massive chip on their shoulder and will remember the time your AJ beat their KK when all the money went in on a JT6 flop.

Likes to bumhunt, table-switch and will insta-quit when they have >3BI on the table.

I thought about another category, but in reality they are quite similar, and the groups are notmutually exclusive. People can have personality traits of one but a win rate similar to another. Its more a sliding scale really then any set rules you need to follow. Some of the better players I know bumhunt quite hard which is curious.

The problem of bumhunting, much like pollution and envrionmentalism in the 90's, is really a problem of tragedy of the commons, where even if you take measures to stop something, the fact thousands of other do it kind of reduces that impact. As such, its really going to take a drastic overhaul by a governing body to really save poker in terms of not having the fish slaughtered for 20bb/100 every time they sit. Something like reducing each player to 4 tables at a time helps, since if players want to keep up a high winrate you will need to play higher and embrace more variance, but that obviously leads to more cheating etc... plus Stars and co. want the additional rake from 20 tables of 10nl compared to 2 tables of 50nl or whatever.

 

[DamoESP]

Good idea for a thread, will give it a read now i'm a beginner...won some decent sized pots playing a fri/sat night at Burswood and am still up from when I started palying (I call it beginners luck!), but have no idea about pot odds, strategies etc. and have left the last few nights down because of it.

 

[JuddsABlue]

I dont bumhunt in general in a live setting. (Online I would have a few regs I would auto search to see if they were sitting somewhere and jump on that table, otherwise would just play randomly)

It is def a leak though if your pride is going to force you to sit on a table where you dont think you have an edge. If you want to learn by playing better players then thats fine and your choice to make

It can be really tilting though being stuck on that 'reg' table while 4 of 2/5 biggest players are having a faculty meeting on another table spewing money every which way and the transfer list is 8 deep.

The higher you play the more of a factor it becomes. Whether I play 5/10 is purerly dependant on whos sitting down.


If I had to give out 5 tips to any new player I think it would be these
Dont limp - As ashley12 stated sometimes it can be profitable and I def do it, but as a new player you should be cutting it out of your game very early, and then try and figure out places to introduce it later. Most new players go the other way round and choose to limp everything and then try to introduce raising later.

Be aggressive post flop - Dont be afraid of cbetting when you miss, dont be afraid of double barreling (betting the flop and if that doesnt work, bet the turn). New players often play so weak. You may not know what you're doing, but as long as you're doing it, you'll eventually figure it out

Dont get stuck in the backwards way of thinking most 1/2-2/3 players have - There is no 'right or wrong' way to play. Whenever someone says 'I have to fold there' or 'I cant bet there' or 'I knew you had the ace but I had to call' etc, just ignore it. Theyre wrong. There is no black and white way to play. You can call down KK on A high boards. You can value bet middle pair. You can call with A high.

Think - Think about your opponents hand and remember what happened on previous streets. "Ohhh does he really have it?" Isnt thinking about the hand. Try and figure out what hands make sense for every street. Think what he would do with top pair on the flop, did he do it? What would he do with top pair on the turn, did he do that as well?

Value bet - So many new players check rivers just because they dont know whats happening and theyre worried. They want a cheap showdown. You should be constantly putting pressure on other players by betting. The river bet for value is so wasted in the lower limits. Some bad players will say "Im not getting called by a worse hand" which 99% of the time is utter crap. You will get called by worse and when they dont they fold and people dont get to see your cards and how you played them


But just remember this and that is you will grow as a player every single day, and at any random point, you think you know it all. 98% of players think they know all there is to know about the game, they are at their peak every day so why would they. Try to understand there is still so much to learn and what you think is correct now probably isnt, but you need to go through the natural cycle that we all go through to get further and further

Right now, I know X amount about poker. I dont know what else there is to know, because if I did, I'd know it wouldnt I? But I do know that there is more to be learned out there, and stuff I think is correct now still probably isnt, and in a couple of months I'm going to look back to this very point in time and wonder to myself how I ever thought what I was doing was good/correct/profitable. Its the same for everybody, you dont know it all and never will, so never stop thinking

 

[Opportunity Cost]

Will read this thread regularly. Play semi regularly and am always looking to learn.

Limping is something I do far too often, especially in late position. Will be something I work on in future.

 

[Goodo73]

Look forward to reading this thread. I'm not much of a live cash player but will definitely value the thoughts of people who are obviously better than me.

 

[ashley12]

Quoting from Judds A blue

It is def a leak though if your pride is going to force you to sit on a table where you dont think you have an edge. If you want to learn by playing better players then thats fine and your choice to make

It can be really tilting though being stuck on that 'reg' table while 4 of 2/5 biggest players are having a faculty meeting on another table spewing money every which way and the transfer list is 8 deep.

I believe in a concept called "table auto balance" at Burswood. Basically, if I see a table that looks really good, its highly likely that someone else is going to see that it is really good as well. As such, its far more likely that the table is going to get worse as the night goes on, and vice versa if a table sucks.

Its not that I am going to give up an oppurtunity to sit on a great table, but I realise that it is very possible that the arbitrage chance wont last for ever when other good players are in the room and capable of changing tables for the right reasons, compared to just something like a lucky dealer or w/e.

I agree with the higher stakes thing in theory, but since its only really one game at Burswood we dont get the chance to apply that knowledge.

If I had to give out 5 tips to any new player I think it would be these
Dont limp - As ashley12 stated sometimes it can be profitable and I def do it, but as a new player you should be cutting it out of your game very early, and then try and figure out places to introduce it later. Most new players go the other way round and choose to limp everything and then try to introduce raising later.

Be aggressive post flop - Dont be afraid of cbetting when you miss, dont be afraid of double barreling (betting the flop and if that doesnt work, bet the turn). New players often play so weak. You may not know what you're doing, but as long as you're doing it, you'll eventually figure it out

Dont get stuck in the backwards way of thinking most 1/2-2/3 players have - There is no 'right or wrong' way to play. Whenever someone says 'I have to fold there' or 'I cant bet there' or 'I knew you had the ace but I had to call' etc, just ignore it. Theyre wrong. There is no black and white way to play. You can call down KK on A high boards. You can value bet middle pair. You can call with A high.

Think - Think about your opponents hand and remember what happened on previous streets. "Ohhh does he really have it?" Isnt thinking about the hand. Try and figure out what hands make sense for every street. Think what he would do with top pair on the flop, did he do it? What would he do with top pair on the turn, did he do that as well?

Value bet - So many new players check rivers just because they dont know whats happening and theyre worried. They want a cheap showdown. You should be constantly putting pressure on other players by betting. The river bet for value is so wasted in the lower limits. Some bad players will say "Im not getting called by a worse hand" which 99% of the time is utter crap. You will get called by worse and when they dont they fold and people dont get to see your cards and how you played them

- Limping isnt that bad, but open limping generally is. If there are 5 limpers to me, with a mix of limp/callers and limp/folders, im far more likely to overlimp some hands like 76s compared to raising or folding them. Same thing with some small pocket pairs, but I am still going to be raising AQ+ and 99+ obv in most cases. Depends a lot on the first limper and whether he can start the limping train, or the folding train, or limp/raise.

- Agree with post flop aggression. Mixes in very well with the value betting thin, and in particular the not being a river showdown monkey.

- I agree with the playing hands not always the same way, and other ways to play certain hands. More importantly, its important to not level yourself into calling down when certain villians can never not have it, particularly at the lower limits. I love a good hero call down as much as the next guy with King high, but in general there are relatively few people that will show up with worse then two pair in pots that are played for stacks.

- Thinking is important, but its more important that we remember that just because we can think logically about a hand, doesnt mean they will.

But just remember this and that is you will grow as a player every single day, and at any random point, you think you know it all. 98% of players think they know all there is to know about the game, they are at their peak every day so why would they. Try to understand there is still so much to learn and what you think is correct now probably isnt, but you need to go through the natural cycle that we all go through to get further and further.

The game is always constantly evolving and because of that, we need to be as well. I thought I knew everything in 2009, and I honestly knew about 15% of what I know now. And I have a lot of things still to learn.

Right now, I know X amount about poker. I dont know what else there is to know, because if I did, I'd know it wouldnt I? But I do know that there is more to be learned out there, and stuff I think is correct now still probably isnt, and in a couple of months I'm going to look back to this very point in time and wonder to myself how I ever thought what I was doing was good/correct/profitable. Its the same for everybody, you dont know it all and never will, so never stop thinking

Yeah, its never ending the learning aspect of poker.

Will read this thread regularly. Play semi regularly and am always looking to learn.

Limping is something I do far too often, especially in late position. Will be something I work on in future.

Again, limping isnt necessarily bad, as long as it is for the right reasons.

 

[ashley12]

Anyway, posting the first part to starting hands and ranges, which will mainly be about which kind of hands we are playing where...

THE POSITIONS

Firstly, it is important to note which position at the table is which for comparisons sake

On this chart the button is on Jim has the button, and Alice and Bob are the small blinds and big blinds. The other players can be listed as

CAROL: UTG
FRED: UTG+1
BILL: UTG+2
MARK: MP
TED: low-jack
SALLY: Hi-jack
DAVID: Cut-off

Depending on the number of players there can be more then one MP. Also, you could in theory label someone UTG+7 if they were on the button in a 10 handed game. However, in general for games 8 handed or more, all the MP's and UTG's will play roughly the same in what kind of hands we wish to play.

Hi-jack and low-jack are terms I am pretty sure were invented on 2+2 im assuming on the basis of when people first learnt NLHE (and poker in general) that people could "steal" from the button in unopened pots. As people applied that knowledge, people realised that they could steal from the seat next to the button and cut him off from stealing, which was then applied by IIRC Tommy Angelo in regards to the high-jack etc...

Quick note about Tommy Angelo, I really couldnt give props to his book "Elements of Poker" enough. Sure, you wont learn an awful lot about "betting strategy" but things about handling yourself as a poker player around other people as well as keeping calm and composed around other players and maintaining your best game. I got it ordered in for me but I am sure you can find other ways to get hold of it. I have heard good things about his follow up but havent read it, which is more a bunch of tales from being a pro which again, sounds pretty cool but will not help you on betting strategy obviously.

So we know the positions at the table, so know we need to think about the hands. For the sake of discussions I am going to assume we are playing 2/5nl at Burswood which is 60bb deep. This info can also be applied to 100 max nl which is 50bb deep and 2/3 at 66bb deep, but anything bigger such as 500/1000max 2/5 and bigger will be completely different based on stack sizes.

UTG-MP

Generally referred to as early position, which for the sake of our diagram lets say we are talking about Carol-Mark.

Most of the time in these spots there will be no-one yet to voluntarily enter the pot (blinds dont count). As such, because we are not yet guaranteed of a big multiway pot with hands that flop well, such as 89s etc, we should be doing a lot less limping because either

1) we end up in a small pot against the blinds with a wide range, who will rarely pay us off for a big pot if we hit big or

2) we get raised from behind us (The more people behind us, the more likely that there is someone behind us with a good hand). This leaves us with a marginal hand out of position (OOP) vs someone with what seems to be a good hand like AK or a big pair. As such, we will have a difficult time playing the hand particularly maximising value with a big draw, or when we flop a one pair hand and dont really know "where we stand"

Note: I hate the concept "betting to see where we are at" and all that goes along with it. It basically means that if you do it, they will play perfectly vs you (i.e they are losing they fold, and if they are winning they either raise or they call, and you are still somewhat not sure what is going on) I will explain more about that when we talk about donking vs check/raising.

This means that in general (the exception being that we are in an amazing passive loose game) is that we want to either raise of fold upfront) Depending on your skill level decides which hands become profitable up front, where skillful postflop play can turn hands that are losers for me into profitable hands for say, Phil Ivey).

As a rough guide 9 or 10 handed, in the first 4 or so positions I would play these hands first in,

RAISING: AJs+, AQo, 99+
LIMPING: 22-88 definately, ATs and maybe some high SC's depending on game conditions.

This range is based more on the average somewhat beginner player at a game like this where they may be around the 4th best player or so. Depending on the lineup, I would usually raise more hands if everyone sucked and I could get away with it, but very rarely would I raise less then that.

My normal raise size is 4x the big blind when first in the pot. This is variable depending on game conditions (i.e I would raise to 7x with a bunch of idiots on a Saturday night at 2am because they will still call with worse dominated cheese) As a general rule, the better of a player you believe you are, the smaller your PFR size should be. This is because lots of people will look at your raise size from an absolute value point of view, and play against you with more hands for 15 then they would for 30. As such, since you are in EP the last thing you want is good players playing against you in position with a relatively wide range, because they are capable of giving you a lot of problems later on, particularly with deeper stacks. As such you want to give them as small an SPR (Stack to Pot Ratio) as you can to deny them the correct odds to take 76s to war vs your hand.

Limping the small pocket pairs is okay. At a higher level, you would be what is known as "unbalanced" because the type of hands you limp with are only pairs. However, in live poker balance is almost not necessary since the number of hands played is so low plus people are unobservant and few hands actually go to showdown or get turned over compared to the HH feature online. Il mention more about balance later about semi-bluffing.

SC's are generally not quite as good as pocket pairs because 1) they rarely make their hand on the flop, instead they tend to flop a draw of some kind, which requires you to often put in more money to make said draw and 2) they are more like to suffer from some form of domination i.e you have 87s, which is okay but some bumpkin is in with K8o. They are harder to play OOP compared to the no set, no bet, nature of the small pocket pairs.

When considering raising or folding with certain hands, we need to pay attention to a few things, the two most important being who is on our immediate left, and who are in the blinds.

The person on your immediate left is capable of starting a calling train as other people see "value" in the pot and can call with all kinds of cheese. This value is not often actually in existance. For sure, you might be getting 4:1 on a call preflop with lots of runners, but now your 95o has to beat 4 people rather then just one person with AK. Not only that, but in a multiway pot other people will be more cautious as well with one pair, meaning if you flop two pairs you will rarely get action from worse. Its not that there isnt value so to speak, but the ranges to overlimp or call a raise after one caller are pretty similar to the range I overcall four callers, and in their minds would be considered premium holdings.

The blinds matter as well, since we need to figure out if they are tough are timid players. A tough player will call us OOP very rarely, instead chosing to 3bet (also known as a reraise) us with anything they continue with. These kind of players we would generally like to raise with a somewhat polarised range between junk and premiums to save us toughish decision with hands like KQs but that is beyond the scope of this section of writing. The other thing is that we can rarely raise a depolarised range with 10 players in a hand, because they other fish will often just call even if he will not, which doesnt allow us to fully manage not getting exploited by the BB by raise/folding to much. Again, this subject matter is really relevant when put alongside starting hand ranges.

Timid players are players who will rarely re-raise preflop, and elect to call OOP instead. These are great players, since any kind of cards I would raise preflop will have a huge equity advantage over them, plus I have position, and in general if they are calling they will suck postflop as well. These are the money making hands once an hour where we raise preflop to 25 or so, get one caller and take it down 85% of the time on the flop either by having the best of it or winning with a c-bet. While a small % of the time they will outflop us and we lose, a similar % of the time we will flop the best hand with them having something good as well, but beacuse we have position our pots will be bigger.

I will do the late position stuff and 3bets later, but I will leave us with that for now...

 

[red+black]

reminder to self to read through this thread properly this weekend

 

[ICCHILL007]

Played 2/5 at Burswood on Sunday and it didnt matter what I did i couldn't win. The worst hand I put my money in was two pair, lost two pairs 4 times, straight twice and 4 sets that lost over a period of 8 hours

......... This was the main one that sucked... I had about 200 and I had 88, wasnt too much pre flop so i called, many players called, flop came Q 9 5 , everyone checked and so did I , turn was 8 , I thought great! , one guys bets $50 then I go all in, other guy goes all in and the original raiser goes all in too. The both players turn over 6 7 and River is a 2 and I lose a $700 pot.........

......ok what should i do with this one, i call a raise with 8 10 , few callers with the flop coming 10 8 7 , one guys bets 40 another calls and I have 120 left, I went all in , one guy calls with something like 9 3 and of course gets the jack on the turn and I lose again........

let me know how you think i should play these hands, all my sets were 99 or less and all my two pairs were not big two pairs and I didnt get and pockets greater than 99s or even ace queen or ace king in 8 hours of play...... should I have just waited for those bigger pre flop hands?

 

[red+black]

Here's a hand I ****ed up on Saturday. So I'm slowly starting to get back into poker, and have been getting my confidence back. Playing 1/2, from 3rd position I raise to 10, SB raises to 30, I call. Flop J63r, villain bets 40, I think out loud "Maybe he doesn't have Ace King". I call. Turn 5, no flush draws, he tanks and checks, as do I. River King, he checks quickly as do I and he shows AK, and I voice a couple of expletives.

And I said to myself: "Pull the ****ing trigger, shove the turn!" I get so annoyed with myself sometimes.

I lose too many pots that I shouldn't due to what I do or don't do. Luck is luck, but my aim is to accumulate Sklanksy bucks, but you wouldn't think so the way I often play.

Spoiler

By the way, I had 43ss.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Here's a hand I ****ed up on Saturday....

Trying to outplay fish with marginal cheese in position at crown 1/2 is a pretty bad idea.

How deep were you?

 

[red+black]

I started with a touch under 200. I've plugged in some hand ranges and I'm ahead on the turn, as I knew I was, but my balls shrunk and I couldn't just give that flick of the wrist to declare it's all you can eat baby.

 

[checkraiseulite]

I started with a touch under 200. I've plugged in some hand ranges and I'm ahead on the turn, as I knew I was, but my balls shrunk and I couldn't just give that flick of the wrist to declare it's all you can eat baby.

no doubt you should have pushed/bet on the turn.

my point was that I thought your rationale for calling a 3bet with small suited connectors was 'this guy is a 1/2 fish, i'll call him in position and outplay him post flop.'

unless you're super deep, this is just a bad idea. i wouldn't bother opening these hands, i'd just wait for a decent hand and value-town or just limp in and try and connect big.

 

[HyperAgressiveDonk]

Here's a hand I ****ed up on Saturday. So I'm slowly starting to get back into poker, and have been getting my confidence back. Playing 1/2, from 3rd position I raise to 10, SB raises to 30, I call. Flop J63r, villain bets 40, I think out loud "Maybe he doesn't have Ace King". I call. Turn 5, no flush draws, he tanks and checks, as do I. River King, he checks quickly as do I and he shows AK, and I voice a couple of expletives.

And I said to myself: "Pull the ****ing trigger, shove the turn!" I get so annoyed with myself sometimes.

I lose too many pots that I shouldn't due to what I do or don't do. Luck is luck, but my aim is to accumulate Sklanksy bucks, but you wouldn't think so the way I often play.

Spoiler

By the way, I had 43ss.

First of all need more info. What are the villains tendecies? Secondly, how deep were you? Flatting with 4 high unless you are super deep is not a good play.

If you were deep, raise villian on the flop. The way you played the hand, you should have jammed the turn once villian checks. If he had aces, kings, queens, jacks ( which is most of his 3 betting range ) he's not betting the flop, then checking the turn. By raising the turn you will push villian off AK, AQ, which is probably the rest of 3 betting range and what he will have most times there after checking the turn. You will know better next time