The Live Strategy and Content Thread

[ashley12]

Ok here is a question that may seem like a very beginner type question. When having AA, KK, QQ , JJ & AK what is the best amount you should open a pre flop raise. Is $35 the right amount in a 2/5 NL game? Should you raise the same amount in a 2/3 NL and 1/2 NL game? Say if you raise to the same percentage in a 1/2 NL game as the $35 in the 2/5 game, the raise comes only to $10-15 which everyone seems to call. What the best stategy with this?

As mentioned by JAB, your open sizes shouldnt change with your actually holding. However, in small games, you will be able to occasinally get away with making it a little bigger or smaller depending on your hand and position. If the gap between your monster hand sizing and SC type sizing is too big, people will be able to use the hands you take to showdown to determine which is which and exploit you.

A good example of this is a Burswood reg he lets call him Stevo (not real name obviously). Stevo was one of the regs that used to really hate when his AA and KK etc... were cracked by "garbage" such as a SC or a small pocket pair. As such, he would open his AK and JJ+ hands to 30 in a 2/3 while opening his small SC's and ATs etc... to 10. As such, I was able to keep 3betting him relentlessly, because he folded almost all of his $10 range, and not only that, but his small raise would pick up some optomistic calls in between, allowing me to raise to $60 and pick up his raise and the three or so calls in the middle almost always, since I never had to be scared of him ever having AA or KK hands in that raise range.

Now you compare him to me. Because I open the same amount of $$$ with AA as well as QJs and any hand I open with, people have to be concerned I have AA a % of the time, so they tend to flat hands like TT and AQ because they are scared I might have "it".

In reality, I am actually massively exploitable because in LP, because I will fold like 90% of my opening range to a 3bet, because people dont 3bet me without QQ plus most of the time. When I see someone that is capable of 3betting me light regularly with lots of $$$ back, then I might start playing back, but that is mega rare at 60bb stack sizes.

FWIW, I open to $20 usually in the 2/5 at Burswood, $25 on weekends on the right table, with $5 for each limper or so.

Very hard to diagnose, I am imagining villian as a bad player from your description in which I'm checking back a lot without it and value betting 2pairs and all Tens ofc.

If villian is actually pretty decent I'm firing a lot more, basically everything tbh. Somewhere around $150 looks value betty enough to try and get him to fold 2 pair. I'm pretty bad at these type of hand histories though



I like raising OOP. Hate it when we flat and either get checked back on or we dont and he pot controls so we lose value. Theres basically nothing here he can have that he doesnt value pretty big. I'm making it 150 and then firing 250 on every turn trying to get stacks in there.

I hate calling and going chk chk turn and getting off a value bet on the river against AQ. If hes bad we want him stacking off aganist us thinking we have KQ or something. Just my imo but against described villian I am chasing value at every corner OOP. In position its a different story though I think



I sometimes bet sometimes dont. A lot of players are c/calling JT/x hands so betting is probably bad. We've missed our set and can see a free turn, I say take it.

I'll probably bet the 2:diamond: turn with plans of firing lots of non diamond rivers. 2:club: I check it back and try to be a river rat.

HAND 1

Bad limit players make the worst hand readers, in particular to evaluate how ranges change from street to street. Even though I know i can almost never have a T that bet both the flop and turn, he doesnt know that. Based on his calling range I dont think he can call down with any hand here unless he backdoored into a straight like KT, but he would likely donk in that spot.

I thought it was a really great spot to bluff, and one of my mates agreed, the other wasnt as sure.

(for what it is worth, I had a complete airball, like 8 high or something) The question related more to would I be "bluffing" with a hand like Kx or whatever, compared to having no showdown value such as 8 high.

Looks like I have a bit to read, thanks for the posts fellas. All the talk to date has been about cash games, here's one from a $250 Phase 2 Aussie Millions satellite last night. 35 players, top 7 win an $1150 Phase 3 ticket.

8 players left, one of which is Clonie Gowen. Blinds are 1500/3000 and the average stack is just 13125.

BB: 8700 (short stack)
UTG+1: 16000
UTG+2: 8900

Older guy UTG+1 shoves pre. UTG+2 pauses, asks for a count of BB's stack. By the way, I'm not playing, I'm railing. I'm thinking, good situation for the BB, let these two fight it out and just hang on for a Phase 3 ticket. UTG+2 shoves. BB jokes that he's going to call blind and triple up. He motions to shove, then checks his cards, and shove he does. I couldn't believe it, even after seeing what he had, I'm thinking why risk it?

UTG+1: KK
UTG+2: QQ
BB: AA

Turn is a King and UTG+1 eliminates two players, but UTG+2 gets a ticket as he started with a bigger stack than the BB. So, my questions are:
a) Should UTG+2 have folded pre knowing that UTG+1 has a hand (safe assumption) and that BB might have to call, otherwise is left with just 5700 going into his 1500 small blind?
b) Given that UTG+2 called, should BB have folded pre? To get a ticket, he either has to win this hand, or fold and hope that the bigger stack wins the hand, or hope that someone else busts on that orbit.

UTG+2 folding would depend on his personal read of what UTG+1 would shove with in that spot. As well as that, how many other stacks he has outchipped and how many double ups will need to happen to fold into the money.

Im probably calling with QQ, but I am a satelitte fish.

BB should be snap mucking if the two stacks were close, because unless they chop (mega unlikely) then someone will be left with less the 10% of a BB, or he gets the seat. Since the gap is still 8k it would depend on other stacks IMO...

I always look to overjam against these kinds of players because they're tilt calling soooo often.

He's probably never ever folding a king either so I'm going to overjam and live with it. Whatever he's c/folding he's going to do so regardless of bet size imo.

I thought a king would be making a bet on the turn as well, particularly a tilty villian. Its highly unlikely he has changed his tune from mega tilt to tarp in one card.

Is there no merit in checking here and letting him spazz the river?

This IMO, but I play SFA online and wouldnt know one end of the computer from the other.

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An interesting hypothetical. While I didnt have the choice of all the seats (my seat was fixed) I thought this would have been an interesting question had I been allowed the choice.

The question...

The table is 9 handed and is expanding to 10. However, because your seat is being "created" you have the choice of sitting anywhere at the table between any of the members, though their positions relative to each other is fixed... Where would you choose to sit if the lineup in each seat was... game is 2/5 300max

1) Relatively solid TAG $400
2) Fish that is loose and passive ex limit player. Second biggest spot in the game $600
3) Loose passive $300
4) Ridiculously tight nit $200
5) THE SPOT. Making all kinds of dumb minraises pre and backraises, playing like 60/35 or something. $1100
6) Meh passive player that fairly new to the game $300
7) Shortstack Asian that was playing okay but has lost a few biggish pots and looks to be playing to the felt $100
8) Solidish TAG that is capable of FPS and spew $700
9) Best player in the game by a mile, and probably the best player that plays regularly at Burswood. In game waiting/hoping for 5/10 PLO to start $500

FWIW seat 9 is Jovan Scekic
http://www.pokernetwork.com/players/australia/jovan_scekic

So, where do you sit given the choice. If that seat isnt available, then where. Assume your stack is $500 (what I was up to when I noticed this dilemma)

(Unfortunately IRL I was stuck in the worst seat IMO the entire night once the game got this deep)

 

[checkraiseulite]

Played this hand today again crown $2/5.

I'm in the BB with 44 stack $850 or so. Villain is HJ with ~$350 or so. Villain is a very bad player.

Anyway 1 EP limp, villain raises to $30. I call. Limper folds (lol).

Flop is 3 5 9r. I check call his bet of $50. Turn is a 6 putting a fd out, I check and he checks back.

River is an off-suit 3. I check, he shoves. Hero?

 

[checkraiseulite]

And i'm sitting in between spots 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 in that situation if this seat 9 is as good as you say he is.

 

[ashley12]

Played this hand today again crown $2/5.

I'm in the BB with 44 stack $850 or so. Villain is HJ with ~$350 or so. Villain is a very bad player.

Anyway 1 EP limp, villain raises to $30. I call. Limper folds (lol).

Flop is 3 5 9r. I check call his bet of $50. Turn is a 6 putting a fd out, I check and he checks back.

River is an off-suit 3. I check, he shoves. Hero?

You say villian is bad, but not in which way. Obviously a bad nit is a lot different to a bad LAG or a bad TAG etc...

I call river most of the time, but I am well known for some absolute hero calls that usually run into quads a lot. Also once made a hilarious $130 call in 2/3 with king high that ran into a better king high once... Sick thin value bet from the villian

And i'm sitting in between spots 3 and 4 or 4 and 5 in that situation if this seat 9 is as good as you say he is.

Personally I view having position on the main spot in the game is far more important then where I stand relative to seat 9. Also, if I am to closer to the right of the villian, I am less likely to have my BB attacked as much when he (Jovan) is UTG or UTG+1 since I have "protection" from the other donks in the game that Jovan will not raise particularly light.

Jovan is generally pretty solid and tight pre, a complete animal postflop though. As such I doubt he is going to be playing a heap of pots HU with me in position so I dont have to worry about getting owned to much in HU spots.

Overall I find it interesting because I was originally with the spot on my immediate left and wanted to move instantly.

----------------

About relative position there is one old Greek nitfish (known by a Greek swearword) that thinks I am absolute LAGtard** and as a result will always try to sit on my direct left or as close to my direct left as possible. This is great because he plays something like 8/2 so I never have to worry about being 3bet light be him at all, and the blinds are basically there for the taking. Not only that, but since he will not adjust to me I basically get an additional button most of the time since he folds so often to my raises.

I do find it funny in that his attempts to "own me" by consistantly playing from my left he has made things a lot better for me compared to someone who is going to consistantly 3bet being on my left.


**As an aside, a few months ago a friend of mine who plays well (lets call him James) asked me to put a chip down for him to book a seat when one opened up. Obviously I do so when a seat becomes available. So I am in the 7, Greekie is in the 9, and I put a chip down in the 5 seat. Greekie tries to claim the 7 which I am currently in. I politely tell him that I am staying in the 7 and that James is having the 5, but if he wants he can take the 5.

He whinges he wants to stay in the 9 and shuts up for a bit.

James comes over and we have a quick chat while he waits for the BB. Greekie asks if we are friends, and James straight off the bat says we are housemates in a one bedroom house, and makes a motion with his hands similar to a key entering a keyhole

Since then (I have only seen him twice admittedly) Greekie has asked me if I go that way...

So know Greekie thinks I am a LAGtard and a homosexual...

Cool story bro...

 

[ashley12]

Anyway, because I have some time to kill this morning, and need to wait for my housemate to get up before I can clean the house before an inspection, here comes part two of our preflop hand selections.

For reference, this was part one...

Anyway, posting the first part to starting hands and ranges, which will mainly be about which kind of hands we are playing where...

THE POSITIONS

Firstly, it is important to note which position at the table is which for comparisons sake

On this chart the button is on Jim has the button, and Alice and Bob are the small blinds and big blinds. The other players can be listed as

CAROL: UTG
FRED: UTG+1
BILL: UTG+2
MARK: MP
TED: low-jack
SALLY: Hi-jack
DAVID: Cut-off

Depending on the number of players there can be more then one MP. Also, you could in theory label someone UTG+7 if they were on the button in a 10 handed game. However, in general for games 8 handed or more, all the MP's and UTG's will play roughly the same in what kind of hands we wish to play.

Hi-jack and low-jack are terms I am pretty sure were invented on 2+2 im assuming on the basis of when people first learnt NLHE (and poker in general) that people could "steal" from the button in unopened pots. As people applied that knowledge, people realised that they could steal from the seat next to the button and cut him off from stealing, which was then applied by IIRC Tommy Angelo in regards to the high-jack etc...

Quick note about Tommy Angelo, I really couldnt give props to his book "Elements of Poker" enough. Sure, you wont learn an awful lot about "betting strategy" but things about handling yourself as a poker player around other people as well as keeping calm and composed around other players and maintaining your best game. I got it ordered in for me but I am sure you can find other ways to get hold of it. I have heard good things about his follow up but havent read it, which is more a bunch of tales from being a pro which again, sounds pretty cool but will not help you on betting strategy obviously.

So we know the positions at the table, so know we need to think about the hands. For the sake of discussions I am going to assume we are playing 2/5nl at Burswood which is 60bb deep. This info can also be applied to 100 max nl which is 50bb deep and 2/3 at 66bb deep, but anything bigger such as 500/1000max 2/5 and bigger will be completely different based on stack sizes.

UTG-MP

Generally referred to as early position, which for the sake of our diagram lets say we are talking about Carol-Mark.

Most of the time in these spots there will be no-one yet to voluntarily enter the pot (blinds dont count). As such, because we are not yet guaranteed of a big multiway pot with hands that flop well, such as 89s etc, we should be doing a lot less limping because either

1) we end up in a small pot against the blinds with a wide range, who will rarely pay us off for a big pot if we hit big or

2) we get raised from behind us (The more people behind us, the more likely that there is someone behind us with a good hand). This leaves us with a marginal hand out of position (OOP) vs someone with what seems to be a good hand like AK or a big pair. As such, we will have a difficult time playing the hand particularly maximising value with a big draw, or when we flop a one pair hand and dont really know "where we stand"

Note: I hate the concept "betting to see where we are at" and all that goes along with it. It basically means that if you do it, they will play perfectly vs you (i.e they are losing they fold, and if they are winning they either raise or they call, and you are still somewhat not sure what is going on) I will explain more about that when we talk about donking vs check/raising.

This means that in general (the exception being that we are in an amazing passive loose game) is that we want to either raise of fold upfront) Depending on your skill level decides which hands become profitable up front, where skillful postflop play can turn hands that are losers for me into profitable hands for say, Phil Ivey).

As a rough guide 9 or 10 handed, in the first 4 or so positions I would play these hands first in,

RAISING: AJs+, AQo, 99+
LIMPING: 22-88 definately, ATs and maybe some high SC's depending on game conditions.

This range is based more on the average somewhat beginner player at a game like this where they may be around the 4th best player or so. Depending on the lineup, I would usually raise more hands if everyone sucked and I could get away with it, but very rarely would I raise less then that.

My normal raise size is 4x the big blind when first in the pot. This is variable depending on game conditions (i.e I would raise to 7x with a bunch of idiots on a Saturday night at 2am because they will still call with worse dominated cheese) As a general rule, the better of a player you believe you are, the smaller your PFR size should be. This is because lots of people will look at your raise size from an absolute value point of view, and play against you with more hands for 15 then they would for 30. As such, since you are in EP the last thing you want is good players playing against you in position with a relatively wide range, because they are capable of giving you a lot of problems later on, particularly with deeper stacks. As such you want to give them as small an SPR (Stack to Pot Ratio) as you can to deny them the correct odds to take 76s to war vs your hand.

Limping the small pocket pairs is okay. At a higher level, you would be what is known as "unbalanced" because the type of hands you limp with are only pairs. However, in live poker balance is almost not necessary since the number of hands played is so low plus people are unobservant and few hands actually go to showdown or get turned over compared to the HH feature online. Il mention more about balance later about semi-bluffing.

SC's are generally not quite as good as pocket pairs because 1) they rarely make their hand on the flop, instead they tend to flop a draw of some kind, which requires you to often put in more money to make said draw and 2) they are more like to suffer from some form of domination i.e you have 87s, which is okay but some bumpkin is in with K8o. They are harder to play OOP compared to the no set, no bet, nature of the small pocket pairs.

When considering raising or folding with certain hands, we need to pay attention to a few things, the two most important being who is on our immediate left, and who are in the blinds.

The person on your immediate left is capable of starting a calling train as other people see "value" in the pot and can call with all kinds of cheese. This value is not often actually in existance. For sure, you might be getting 4:1 on a call preflop with lots of runners, but now your 95o has to beat 4 people rather then just one person with AK. Not only that, but in a multiway pot other people will be more cautious as well with one pair, meaning if you flop two pairs you will rarely get action from worse. Its not that there isnt value so to speak, but the ranges to overlimp or call a raise after one caller are pretty similar to the range I overcall four callers, and in their minds would be considered premium holdings.

The blinds matter as well, since we need to figure out if they are tough are timid players. A tough player will call us OOP very rarely, instead chosing to 3bet (also known as a reraise) us with anything they continue with. These kind of players we would generally like to raise with a somewhat polarised range between junk and premiums to save us toughish decision with hands like KQs but that is beyond the scope of this section of writing. The other thing is that we can rarely raise a depolarised range with 10 players in a hand, because they other fish will often just call even if he will not, which doesnt allow us to fully manage not getting exploited by the BB by raise/folding to much. Again, this subject matter is really relevant when put alongside starting hand ranges.

Timid players are players who will rarely re-raise preflop, and elect to call OOP instead. These are great players, since any kind of cards I would raise preflop will have a huge equity advantage over them, plus I have position, and in general if they are calling they will suck postflop as well. These are the money making hands once an hour where we raise preflop to 25 or so, get one caller and take it down 85% of the time on the flop either by having the best of it or winning with a c-bet. While a small % of the time they will outflop us and we lose, a similar % of the time we will flop the best hand with them having something good as well, but beacuse we have position our pots will be bigger.

I will do the late position stuff and 3bets later, but I will leave us with that for now...

Okay, so now we are going to cover what kind of hands we are going to play from late position.

In general, there are three ways the action can get to you in say, the Cut-Off (the spot to the right of the dealer button)

1) No-one has yet chosen to enter the pot, electing to fold instead

2) A few players have chosen merely to call the big blind, known as limping in

3) Someone has raised the bet to a higher amount then the big blind. This section can also be subdivided into whether the initial raiser has raised and been called behind them, or if they have raised limpers, or if they are the only person in the pot. We will get to that later.

Firstly though, we will look at an unopened pot.

UNOPENED POTS

The most important thing in these spots are to ALWAYS come in for a raise, never limping. With only the button behind you as well as the blinds, the benefits of creating a multiway pot with a hand that plays well multiway such as small pocket pairs and SCs diminishes. As such, we should always be looking to raise to either steal the blinds with no contest, or get into a HU spot with the initiative and 2 times out of 3 depending on who calls you, position.

The % of hands you should be raising depends on the tendencies of the opponents, how deep you are in terms of Big blinds in your stack, and your perceptions of your opponents calling range. Another factor is how our opponents will play on the flop. In general, against people that are going to be playing "fit or fold" where they either hit the board and let you know about it, or just check and fold to a c-bet, we want to be raising a wider range of hands since a fewer % of them will be going to showdown.

ASHLEY'S MEGA HINT: Before acting, dont be afraid to look left at the opponents that have yet to act on their hands. If you can see that three of your opponents behind you are disgusted and ready to fold their hands, your position can change from MP to almost the button, allowing you to profitably raise a wider range of hands profitably without the pesky players behind you waking up with a monster hand. However, you need to be clever about it and not make it obvious you are "looking left". This tip is the main reason I despise sitting in seats 1 and 2 at the poker table instead choosing a seat somewhere between 4-8 for the most part.

If we raise preflop and get called, we should be looking for lots of dry boards to c-bet the flop with, boards that are unlikely to hit their range of hands to call us with from the BB. Good boards include

226
239
37T
K42
A93 etc...

Bad boards include

AKJ
JT9
monotone boards (all one suit)
T87
569 etc...

Obviously we can c-bet these boards if we have something good, such as two pairs, a set, an overpair etc... but they are bad boards to c-bet expecting our opponent to fold a lot of the time.

In terms of a range of hands, it comes down to what you are comfortable with playing, and whether your opponents will be smart enough to adjust when they realise you are opening light in late position (rare at the low levels). Basically, you could raise 100%, you could raise only the hands you are comfortable raising with from middle position, and you should get positive results...

LIMPED POTS

In limped pots, we need to make our decisions based on what we think our opponents will do with a raise.

For example, lets say we have a hand such as pocket 7's. A nice hand for sure, and certainly one that we will continue with.

With hands like small pocket pairs, there is generally two ways we can play them at the low levels.

1) Raise and hopefully get the pot either Heads Up (HU) or at worst 3 ways (or steal the limps and blinds preflop). By having few players, it increases the chances we can win the pot without relying on hitting a set of 7s.

2) Limp and see a massively multiway pot. Sure, we arent going to win the pot very often, but when we do, it will be likely be a big pot because with so many players it, it is likely someone can hit top pair or two pairs and give us action with a worse hand.

Overall, the worst thing that can happen is playing a pot with 4-5 players. Its unlikely we will win the pot with only one pair, and also slightly more unlikely we will get action when we flop our set.

So therefore, what we do when faced with a number of limpers in front of us depends on how many of them we expect to call if we raise, and what we expect them to call with.

So out of say, 4 limpers, if we expect them all to fold a lot of the time, we can raise to either win the blinds or get the pot HU. If we expect them all to call, then we are better off limping, and trying to hit our set.

Obviously in bigger games, some of this information will not really be applicable for various reasons. Also, things like stack sizes and the likelyhood of being 3bet preflop factor into these decisions.

Now say we change our hand to say, ATo. Similar theory, in that we would like to get a pot HU rather then take it to war 7 handed or so. However, more important now is what kind of hands will call us if we raise, particularly if our raise size is bigger then the average at the table.

If we raise and only ever get called by hands that are better like AQ-AJ and 99+, then we can get into some sticky situations postflop. However, if they are the types to call with hands like T8o and A5o then raising can be a good thing since we will still get some money in with the best of it with one pair, and not give ourselves too much chance of being "dominated"

RAISED POTS

For this theory post, I am not going to look at hands we would reraise, or "3bet" with since IMO that is worthy of a whole new section of text. Only calling and folding.

When the pot is raised in front of us, we need to think about how many players are going to see the flop, and our relative position to the preflop aggressor.

If we have a hand that if we flop big we will be looking to check/raise, we generally want the preflop aggressor to be "behind us" so that the entire field acts to his bet before we spring the trap and raise. If the raiser is directly in front of us, we have to either

1) Just call, which can let others in relatively cheap with draws or
2) Raise, and freezeout our action versus the field unless we have a true cooler situation such as a set vs a set etc...

Both these ideas suck, so in general we dont want to call next in often with say, 6s after a raise compared to calling from either the blinds or limp/calling so we act just before the preflop aggressor.

Im not saying not to call with a hand like 6s if the action goes two limps and a raise to 5x the blinds, but in general it works better if we are one of the limpers in front PROVIDED that the PFR will c-bet a high percentage of the time.

PLAYING FROM THE BLINDS

One last comment with regards to raising ranges from the blinds.

When we are in the blinds, we have all things considered the worst position at the table having to act first on the flop and further streets.

In general, I raise a very tight range from the SB and BB (99+ and AQs, AKo) at the average table. However, this changes according to table dynamics and stack sizes of course. There is no reason to raise say, QJs, which while a pretty hand, is unlikely to get called by worse queens and jacks nearly as much as say AQ. Also, by acting first, we may have to
play some tough flops out of position vs tough players.

Therefore if I do raise from the blinds, I am likely going to make it about 2x bigger then usual using the same linear equation that we used to calculate our usual preflop raise size. While this will make our raise sizes seem weird and large, we have to allow for the facts we are out of positiona and that it is more likely that if we get called by the UTG limper, it could easily start the calling train...

--------------------------------------

Again, all thoughts comments and areas people want explained further would be great... I leave you with a Play A Hand With Me (PAHWM) hand. In this hand, I will give the contents of the hand street by street, so that we can discuss the play on each street without being biased by the end results.

Game is Burswood 2/5 on a Tuesday night that is surprisingly action packed for a Tuesday.

My stack is around $800
Villians stack covers me just

In this hand, main villian is a complete lunatic. He has ran pretty bad today including getting set over setted and slowrolled by an old nit. He is raising occasinally and seems to be tilted badly. I did felt him earlier in a nuts hand where a bunch of limpers limped, I completed the SB with 3:club:4:club: and he made a smallish raise. A few callers and I called. I flopped a 15 out draw on a 852 board with two clubs. I checked, he bet around 70 (70% of pot or so) I check-raised all in after all folded, he called off 130 more with JT so he definately loose and full of gamb00l (apperently in for 8 BIs).

Since then he has slowed down a bit and run up his stack with some nice hands and some luck/aggression. Is definately more solid then before.

My image is kinda tight compared to the rest of the table but very aggressive which is generally usual for me.

I have just come back from the bathroom and am such posting the $5 blind and a $2 dead to the pot from the CO position. Villian is on the button.

3 limpers and I check my option with 7:diamond:8:diamond:. Villian makes it 25 on the button. Two callers (both playing about 400, one a stereotypical old lady and the other a random badTag) and I call closing the action...

FLOP: ~110: 8:club:6:diamond:5

Two checks... Hero notices villian seems to be loading up a bet and ????

 

[Ricketts]

I have just come back from the bathroom and am such posting the $5 blind and a $2 dead to the pot from the CO position.

Assuming your bathroom breaks take a fairly standard amount of time, I think you have chosen the wrong time to go.

 

[GlovedLikeGrgic]

On the button fold out of turn, run to toilet and back before the next hand is the only way

 

[ashley12]

A little disappointed that the major discussion point of my hand is when to go to the toilet lol...

FWIW I usually go UTG+1 and get back for either my UTG or BB hand. In this case, the person who would have been BB for my UTG hand chose to cash out, leaving me as the BB and thus I didnt make it back in time.

 

[ashley12]

First hand for analysis of 2012...

Bumper 2/5 game on NYE. My image is that of aggressive and winning with few of my hands going to showdown. Only had to show one bluff with a stack size to start the hand of around $1700, which is big for a 300max game. This hand took place just after 12am.

Villian 1 is a little old lady who has actually been pretty ****ing LAGy preflop, raising lots of small pairs and the occasinal random T7 hand, but fit/fold postflop with hands that are less then a pair, often just check/folding but cbetting with any piece. We are sitting next to each other with her on my right. She has around 400 to start the hand.

Villian 2 is a loose passive station who is in general relatively terrible. Most relevant hand we play. Straddle is on by a drunk Irish guy. Three limps, she limps. I make it 65 with 88. Folds to UTG who calls it off preflop for 60ish, another person shoves for something like 90 total. She overlimp-calls the 80 more, I call. Board runs out KK2-A-4 checked all the way down and she wins with A7s. She has $630 to start the hand.

----------------------------------------

I limp UTG with pocket 5's. A limp by a solid reg, V2 limps the button. SB completes, BB raises 20 more. I call, reg calls, V2 calls SB folds

4 ways: $105: 6:diamond:54:spade:

V1 bets $25, I raise to $130 with the intention to set up a turn shove vs her stack size. Reg folds, V2 cold calls. V1 in the BB thinks for a bit and calls

TURN: 3 ways: $495: 8:diamond:

What the **** do I do now? V1 has $250ish back, V2 has $475.

Il post my opinion later with my guess of villians ranges but yeah, lame spot.

---------------------

As an aside, Happy New Years thread.

 

[checkraiseulite]

hand 1: i'm betting the flop.

hand 2: turn card obviously is not great, v2 cold calling $130 is interesting. you're behind most of the time here given flop calling ranges of non-*ed players and the lack of realistic 2pair combos given your own hand. in a vacuum, i'd check.

 

[ashley12]

Results...

I tanked for a while and eventually bet 300, which instantly got shipped on by the lady behind me... I cried, called because I was getting about 8:1 and because I was running like teh jesus that day I filled up on the river and beat 67...

I might post another update tomorrow, which will most likely be about playing draws...

 

[Opportunity Cost]

I might post another update tomorrow, which will most likely be about playing draws...

In for this.

One area where I struggle is whether to chase or not when the blinds are getting high relative to stacks. I often find myself late in a tournament calling because I have good odds to do so, then missing and being crippled. Have been reading Volume 2 of Dan Harringtons book though and it helped quite a bit.

 

[ashley12]

DRAWS

***For what it is worth this writeup is a very basic way of playing draws, and doesnt fully dig into hidden outs, and playing against ranges rather then specific hands etc... So keep that in mind when I put opponents on specific hands etc.... in certain examples***

So we have covered some basic hands that we should be playing, and where to play them from. As we introduce more hands into our game such as suited connectors and unpaired high card hands, its more and more likely we are going to flop some kind of draw, which is one area where good players and bad players can differ.

WHAT IS A DRAW?

A draw can roughly be defined as a hand which is most likely not the best hand right now in terms of the 5 card hand you are currently playing, but with another card can become the next hand. Sometimes it will be obvious that you hand is not the best hand right now such as

32 on a KJ4:club: board.

But sometimes there will be a time where you might have the best hand, such as the AK high flush draw, where it is possible that our opponents have a hand worse then ours at the current point of time.

There are many ways you can have a draw. The two main obvious are flush draws (9 outs) and straight draws (either 8 or 4 outs depending on whether you have an open ended straight draw or a gutshot. You can also have both draws at once, known as a combo draw which is either 12 or 15 outs.

But other draws exist, such as

Unimproved overs (6 outs)
A one pair hand looking to outdraw an overpair (5 outs)
One pair + flush draw (14 outs)
Full house draws (10 or 4)
Backdoor draws, where you need two cards to improve to win

And many other combinations of these types of draws

DOING THE MATH

The first thing we need to do is calculate the amount of cards we can hit to win, known as "outs" to improve to have the best hand. A rough guide to what hands have which outs

1 OUT: You have the lower of two sets, a gutshot to a straight flush vs a made full house/quads

2 OUTS: An overpair vs a set. A low two pair vs a higher two pair with one common pair

3 OUTS: Same pair weak kicker

4 OUTS: A gutshot straight draw or two pair vs a made straight/flush

5 OUTS: A one pair hand that needs to make two pair or trips to win

6 OUTS: UI overcards vs a smaller pair

7 OUTS: ----

8 OUTS: Open ended straight draw

9 OUTS: A flush draw

10 OUTS: Two overcards and a gutshot straight draw or a set vs a flush/straight

There are hands that have more then 10 outs to win, such as combo straight and flush draws (15 outs)

Now that we know how many outs we have, we need to calculate our % chance of winning the hand.

As a general rule, multiply the number of outs you have on the flop by 4 (assuming we get to see both the turn and the river) to get the % chance you have of winning the hand, and by 2 for the turn. (In reality each out is ~1/47 but simple maths is enough)

ASHLEY'S TIP OF THE DAY: Download PokerStove from their website (use Google) for the easiest way to figure out your equity (chance of winning) in each hand. Very useful particularly in calculating against specific ranges, but we can get to that later.

For example, We have an open ended straight draw on the turn... Our simple maths says 8x2=16%. Survey says..


Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
14,556,808 games 5.647 secs 2,577,794 games/sec
Board: Tc 8c 5h 4s
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 19.108% 19.11% 00.00% 2781610 0.00 { 97s, 97o }
Hand 1: 80.892% 80.90% 00.00% 11776021 0.00 { AA }
　
---


While our numbers are slightly out with the simple maths, its close enough to use as a rough guide.

Another example, we have two overcards and a gutshot vs a one pair hand, so 10 outs so we should have 40% of equity on the flop.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt
12,060,087 games 5.850 secs 2,061,553 games/sec
Board: 9h 7d 2c
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 38.505% 38.51% 00.00% 4643891 0.00 { JTo }
Hand 1: 61.495% 61.50% 00.00% 7416730 0.00 { 95o }
　
---

In this hand, while our Jacks and Tens will let us take the lead on the turn vs the opponents hand, he will have 5 outs on the river to retake the lead (two 9s and three 5s) which reduces our equity slightly then a pure 10 out draw where if we hit we cant lose.

Link to PokerStove website
http://www.pokerstove.com/

ODDS AND ENDS

Now that we have our equity calculated, we can apply that information to figure out our pot odds and whether a certain play is +EV (expected value) or not.

If our opponent is all in with his bet, it is very easy to calculate the pot odds. If he is all in for a pot size bet of say $100, the pot will be laying your 2:1, since it will cost you $100 to win both his $100 and the $100 already in the pot. Being laid 2:1 requires 33% equity, so on the flop you should generally call with roughly 9 outs or more.

If he has money back and is not all in, the maths gets slightly more difficult.

For example, he bets $100 into a $100 pot, but has $300 more left in his stack. In this case, you will not get to see the river card for "free" a lot of the time. In most cases, he will bet the turn so we have to presume we only get one card to hit the hand. However, as an added benefit, we have what is called implied odds, where if we hit our hand on the turn, not only do we win the $100 currently in the pot, and the $100 he bets on the flop, but also possibly the other $300 he has in his stack. While implied odds are not as rigid solid as current odds, it is implied odds where we stand to make a lot of money.

A few examples...

Hand at the casino maximum rake is $10.

Pot is $10, on the flop our opponent goes all in for $1000, maxing the rake. Its $1000 to call. In this spot we need exactly 50% equity to make the call breakeven, since half the time we win $1000, and half the time we lose.

Example B

Action is on the turn. The pot is $100, and our opponent bets $50 leaving himself $200 behind. We believe that he is NEVER going to fold the river, and we will get all his $200 more if we make our hand. What equity do we need to make the call?

Firstly, we are risking $50 (we arent risking the $200 we have to put in on the river since we only ever put that in if we win).

We can win

$100 in the pot right now
$50 his bet on the turn
$200 his remaining stack on the river

a total of $350

So risking $50 to win $350

50:350
1:7

so we need to win 12.5% of the time, which when we use our rough rule about how many outs we need to make a profitable call, means we need roughly 6 outs or more to make the call. So we should fold our gutshots but call with OESDs and flush draws in a vacuum.

ASH TIP: Its very important to note that this is a very specific example, and usually we will need more odds because one of the following things might happen

1) He will fold the river, not allowing us to win the additional $200. If he calls half the time and folds half the time, we are only going to be getting 5:1 rather then 7:1. As such we will need more outs to call

2) We make our hand, but he makes a better one. For example, board has 3 hearts on it and we have a set, so we call just to attempt to make a full house. HUZZAH, we make a full house on the river and go all in. He calls but rather then a flush, shows the top full house so we lose not only the pot, but the rest of our money. The first hand from the movie "Rounders" is an example of this.

---------------------------------

I was going to get into a long spiel about semi-bluffing but really cant be bothered at the moment so might do that next week. Apologies to all of those who think this information is relatively basic...

 

[ashley12]

Im kind of bored, need to stay up until 6am local time (its 2am as I start typing this, so I might as well give this thread a bump with a little extra information in my opinion for playing draws.

While I realise that long drawn out discussions about certain aspects of the game might sound very boring for the casual player, its one of the best ways you will ever get better.

Just like any relatively difficult university course, it is one thing to quickly browse a lecture and think you have it covered, compared to actually digesting the information and applying that knowledge correctly in the future.

So anyway, the post.

Part 1 covered

- What is a draw
- How many outs each draw has, and our equity
- Our implied odds and when they arent implied.

So as an extension on that.

Different lines for draws and fold equity.

Firstly, a lot of how to you are going to play a draw is going to depend on

- Relative stack size and SPR
- Preflop action
- Position
- The board
- The draw we have

And that is BEFORE we account for who our opponent is, our image, our perceptions of what lines our opponent will take with various hands in his range. As such, with a lot of different factors in play, we can have the exact same hand with the exact same position and preflop action, and play it many different ways on different turn cards and whether we at any point decide to turn our hand into a semi-bluff, or a full bluff with a busted bluff on the river.

So lets look at the exact same hand in 4 different scenarios all of which we hold the same hand (in this case, a flush draw). The game is 2/5 300max FWIW with regards to stack sizes.

HAND 1

We hold KJ of diamonds and raise to $20 in mid-position. Loose straight-forward passive calls from the BB and we see a flop HU.

Flop is T52 with two diamonds. He checks. In this situation our hand is definately 100% a bet. He will fold almost every hand that doesnt hit that board, and since there are few draws other then the one we hold, he is going to be check/folding an absolute tonne, especially if he is the kind of player who would bet if he held a T to "see where he is at" as such, since he is folding such a ridiculously large amount of his checking the flop to you range, we have an instantly profitable bet regardless of what hand we actually hold. Incidently the only hand we might not bet may be TT but thats for another day.

HAND 2

We have KdJd and raise in LP in $20. The only caller is an aggressive winning player from the BB who is one of the best players in the game who is aware that while we play an okay relatively tight/aggressive game, we

Flop is 569 with two diamonds. Our opponent checks and the action is on us.

This decision can go both ways depending on the exact nature of the "good player". As a general rule, the better players generally do not donk as much as bad players (DONKING = betting without the betting lead from the previous street before an aggressor can act) As such, because they dont have much of a donking range, their check/raising range will likely be larger. One of the worst things we can do with a draw is allow ourselves to get blitzed off it a large % of the time against someone who will go broke with a heap of hands weaker then our draw.

If the villian will have a wide continuation range and can play that range aggressively, I would in a vacuum check and call most turns with these stack sizes. However, if they are the type to call once an re-evaluate the turn, then I would bet with a look to bet the turn as well on most cards, as almost the entire deck is scary to a one pair hand. Probably not the best example but meh, I cant be bothered deleting it.

HAND 3

A relatively tight player opens to 20 in Early position. Two callers, and we call on the button with 76 of diamonds. BB calls.

Flop: QT6 with a flush draw (the 6 isnt a diamonds obv). EP bets 50, a call then a raise to 150 by the cutoff.

This hand is a fold. While against individual hands we have excellent equity with our flush draw, against multiple hands we have the pain of being dominated by each.

For example, against AQ we would have roughly 48% equity. Against a set we would have roughly 32% equity. Against the nut flush draw depending on the kicker we would be flipping. However, agianst a bigger set and the NFD we are instantly drawing basically dead and as such we should fold. While we may be getting a better price, its a lot harder to beat a large field with a weak draw.

HAND 4

A tight old grumblebum of a reg who has never bet/folded in his life raises to $20 from EP, and with deeper stacks we decide to peel a flop with JdTd from the button. The flop runs out

Kd, Qd, 6s

Tight old grumble bets $45 we have $500 back. In this spot we are never folding of course. An argument could be made for raising as a semibluff, but not against this opponent, because we have no FE on this board vs this range. While we might be a small favourite vs his range (which is probably AK/AA/KK/QQ we can either get it in now and flip for a buy-in, or we can call, and take his whole stack when we get there and not lose as much when we miss.

This of course assumes that our opponent cant hand read and appropriately put us on a draw that gets there. Even against players who do b/f a lot, they will be unlikely to fold this board since it is so draw heavy, we would have most likely 3bet KK or QQ and he probably has blockers to KQ in his hand, as such he may call it off with a one pair hand.

If we were to raise this board, we need to do it agianst either

1) Someone with a wide c-bet range, who will fold a lot immediately hands like AQ and TT as well as all of their air hands.

2) Someone that will 3bet shove worse draws or worse draws

3) A good player who we want to establish the fact we dont get our money in with just sets. (Generally not worth it at lower levels in terms of meta-game.)

And stuff this, Im kinda tired and just want to finish up. Its probably better answering direct questions compared to posting essays, so if anyone wants a question answered that is probably the way to go.

Other general things about playing draws aggressively...

- We want to play aggressively vs players who will fold more often then those who check/call (obv)
- The deeper we are, the more likely it is we can force a fold
- Multiway, some "big draws" are not big at all
- Draws played aggressively can be a good balance to how you play sets. However, that is only relevant vs people paying attention which is not many people.

Other then that, too tired to really bother doing the rest tonight. Damn you chronic laziness.

 

[red+black]

Note to self to give this a good read over the weekend.

 

[MrKelman]

poker advice & tips......

Hi guys my dream is to become a pro like most players but i need to improve my game i play online alot & sometimes in person at adelaide skycity casino.i find that when im online & ahead it seems that everyone calls anything etc. i push all in they need 1 outer and hit on the river happens all the time,also if im in good position with say QQor KK push someone wil call with 88 and hit trips this has happened alot online. i usually buy in for 22 dollar tournaments on ******** poker also play pkr i find that when i get bad beat which happens alot i get angry go all in the next hand regardless of what i have seems like if it wasnt for bad luck i wouldnt have any luck at all.i play live rarely but when i do i do ok i play cash games more so and find im up alot of the time but some night ya dont get anything,i play in tourneys very rarely but i do ok but just cant make the money i dont like taking risks and towards the end of the tourney everyhand people raise a crazy amount i wouldnt call unless i havent picture cards even then i think about it idont even call with low pockets i dont know what i can do to go the next step,which wouldnt be easier to make money from live or online ive given up online as bad beats keep happening and people call when your ahead and get lucky.any tips that would help me im a tight player who doesnt like taking risks very often but if i think im ahead ill play with ease.tips guys????

thanks for reading

Kelman

 

[ashley12]

Hi guys my dream is to become a pro like most players but i need to improve my game i play online alot & sometimes in person at adelaide skycity casino.i find that when im online & ahead it seems that everyone calls anything etc. i push all in they need 1 outer and hit on the river happens all the time,also if im in good position with say QQor KK push someone wil call with 88 and hit trips this has happened alot online. i usually buy in for 22 dollar tournaments on ******** poker also play pkr i find that when i get bad beat which happens alot i get angry go all in the next hand regardless of what i have seems like if it wasnt for bad luck i wouldnt have any luck at all.i play live rarely but when i do i do ok i play cash games more so and find im up alot of the time but some night ya dont get anything,i play in tourneys very rarely but i do ok but just cant make the money i dont like taking risks and towards the end of the tourney everyhand people raise a crazy amount i wouldnt call unless i havent picture cards even then i think about it idont even call with low pockets i dont know what i can do to go the next step,which wouldnt be easier to make money from live or online ive given up online as bad beats keep happening and people call when your ahead and get lucky.any tips that would help me im a tight player who doesnt like taking risks very often but if i think im ahead ill play with ease.tips guys????

thanks for reading

Kelman

Added this to the live strat thread.

As a general rule most people who claim online is rigged against them are those who are not winners long term, have selective memory of bad-beats and in general dont play well enough to beat the games. Its still possible to improve, but having the mindset of "its rigged so I cant win" will not do that.

If you do think that PokerStars or your choice of online site is rigged and you choose to play then that is a somewhat silly choice to begin with.

If you have any questions regarding live play dont be afraid to ask. But I would suggest with such tilt issues such as "I lose one hand and go All In the next" you are a very far place from being a professional poker player"

 

[ashley12]

Okay, a couple of hands where you guys can rate/hate my line.

1)

PFR is a youngish kid, hasnt opened a heap but its been a small sample and he has complained of running a bit cold. He is playing around 300 I cover

Pre: A couple limpers, he raises to 15 in the CO. I call on the button with A4s limpers call.

FLOP: 65: AQ4 I cant remember if it was badugi or a flush draw

Checks to me, I bet 30, folds to PFR who c/r to 75 leaving around 200 back. Hero?

--------------------

2) Pat (the guy from the FT of the Aussie Millions) opens to 25 from MP, a few callers and I call OTB with black 4's. We see a flop about 5 ways. We start the hand with 500 effective vs each other but he covers by heaps.

FLOP: 120: 854 all diamonds

Checks to me, I bet 75. Folds to Pat who makes it 175. Folds to me, Hero?

 

[CrippsonBlue]

1 - Call imo. His next bet commits his stack, and as soon as he sees you just flat he'll believe his Ax is in front and continue. If he checks the turn, I'd still be inclined to check back as I think this will induce a river bet, and he'll have to call our shove.

2 - This is awkward in the sense that if you shove it screams set, yet this guy is surely willing to gamble light so maybe shoving is correct play.

I'd flat call, and re-shove any non-diamond turn. If he checks turn, I'd still just shove any non diamond (unless it pairs) - he's more likely to then just put you on something like top pair, and call thinking he has overs as well as flush draw.

*Would be interested in feed back for my suggestion

 

[checkraiseulite]

Is he ever really C/R small with AK, AJ or Ax from the CO here in a 4 way pot?

 

[CrippsonBlue]

If he has any history of Ash I woudn't be surprised by his line.

Regardless, yeah if he is complaining about running cold I think he is easily sitting there thinking his AT or whatever is the nuts, and as such doesn't care about giving them a free turn because he has already decided the c/r is the only way to go.

I mean that's only a guess anyway - if we think about what range he might be doing this with outside of Ax (and really I can only see him doing it with 99+, any broadway combo, or a total bluff) then the line I suggested is the best bet at extracting the most chips imo in each case.

 

[JuddsABlue]

Without giving the hang too much immediate though, wouldnt a player fitting this description look for a spot like this so c/raise bluff?

Hero flats on the BTN and stabs A high board when checked too, Villian could easily do this with a Q and think its good

That said I'm flatting and trying to give the impression I'm gonna try to outplay him with super underrepped nuts

 

[ashley12]

FWIW we dont have any history. I wouldnt know the guy from Joe Bloggs but he may or may not perceive me a certain way. If he did perceive me as different then the average player, it would definately be that he thinks I am more aggressive then the standard.

It was an interesting spot for sure. I dont think he would c/r that small with air, but if he had a combo draw (if the board had a FD, cant remember if it did or not) he might c/r with that, I think he could c/r with AK but not with AJ or AT imo...

Also I thought if he had a supernut hand then he would wait for the turn but thats just me.

In a way, while I have pretty close to, if not, the top of my range (only 44 is what I could have that is better, AQ/QQ/AA are probably 3bets) I can still fold it if I believe that he isnt exploiting my large b/f %. And since 0.1% of players will actually attempt to exploit that I think that we can definately think of folding if he will not c/r with air enough.

 

[checkraiseulite]

Ya, imo there is like exactly 1 hand in his value range that we beat discounting a combo draw.

But I think he shows up with 77-KK, sets, AQ, random gutshots and total air here a lot more than he does AJ.

Calling/stacking off on the turn is reasonable (and not terrible at all), but imo given the description we are usually crushed here.

 

[ashley12]

Yeah, I never ended up giving results for that hand.

I had A4 and decided to jam it, since IMO we get called by AK and that I discounted his supernut hands a bit because they would wait till the turn.

Turned out he did have AQ and he called and I didnt bink a 2 outer.

I havent played a heap of really interesting hands since, which is a shame, but when I do I am sure I will post a few questions.

Also, uni went back so I have no idea when I will get around to another subject, plus given the relatively weak response those essays got, I think a bunch of short sharp questions is the way to go.