Opinion The NBA Thread

[wicksy]

Wes mathews is signing with Dallas regardless of his decision I read on Twitter, not sure about the others but I want the haywood for Crawford swap to happen

There's a chance.... I'm not sure how Stephenson and Crawford work together in the 2nd unit with both looking to have the ball.
Wouldn't mind us taking Haywood's contract and flipping it for a decent backup to DJ (if he stays) or a Wilson Chandler.

First Unit

CP3
JJ
Chandler
Griffin
DJ

Second Unit

Rivers
Stephenson
Paul Pierce
Dawson
Baby


2nd unit is small but has fire power. Loving what i'm seeing from Dawson in the Summer League. He is ready to play.
That's a championship calibre team right there with a good mix of vet experience and youth.

 

[wicksy]

There's a rumour that Blake, Hawes, Cuban and Parsons were partying in Miami over the weekend and bumped into each other. Either Cuban or Parsons, while tanked, started bragging about the key points that got DJ over the line. Specifying exactly what it was that DJ was not happy about in LA.
Of course, Blake relayed it to Rivers and Ballmer and the rest is/could be history.

If true, this is ridiculously hilarious.
The offended that will come out of this team (if DJ stays) will be immense and frankly..... Very enjoyable to watch.

 

[Knightmare]

So it looks like DJ may have had a change of mind over the weekend.
Pierce, Ballmer, Rivers, Griffin, Redick and Paul are currently meeting with him in Houston to try and convince him to stay in LA while Parson and Cuban are attempting to reconnect also.

What does this mean for other deals done in principle?
Dallas was Hibbert's first preference and has since agreed with the Lakers. Does this mean that deal is in jeopardy?
Wes Matthews agreed on the basis of DJ being a Mav. What happens there?
Now that the Clippers may not need to trade Jamal, what happens with the potential trades to Cleveland/Miami? Does it bring Joe Johnson and the Nets back into the fold?

How exciting!!!!

PS While I would be stoked for DJ not to leave, I can't help but feel that signing him to a max will severely limit us in future years.... Especially if he doesn't take the next step which is improving his offensive game (free throw % mainly).

It would be best for Jordan to return to the Clippers. Maximise his money and he'll also get the best numbers relatively with the Clippers, and have the better shot at the chip.

His decision seems to stem from his dislike of CP3, more so even than wanting to be the man.

Naturally for the Clippers the best outcome is for Jordan to return. So if he does, the Clippers remain in the extended mix out West.

 

[TradeDraft]

Knightmare what you think of Jordan Backing out of the Verbal Agreement of Jordan with the Mavericks?

 

[Knightmare]

Knightmare what you think of Jordan Backing out of the Verbal Agreement of Jordan with the Mavericks?

It's certainly unusual.

But in the NBA, with the free agency, moratorium period. It does allow those free agents the opportunity to think about how they sign with before actually being able to sign the contact. It's a unique NBA thing, and good for the players and their decision making if they feel regret about a decision they the next day felt regret about/felt was the wrong decision. And Jordan made the right decision, using this rule in that way, knowing that the Clippers probably were a better situation for him, and eventually feeling the love he wanted to feel from the organisation.

It will hurt the Mavericks from a competitive standpoint for next season.

But all within the rules. Albeit an usual set of rules.

Similar has happened before, though never before with a max contract player like Jordan which is why there is all the publicity around this topic.

 

[TradeDraft]

It's certainly unusual.

But in the NBA, with the free agency, moratorium period. It does allow those free agents the opportunity to think about how they sign with before actually being able to sign the contact. It's a unique NBA thing, and good for the players and their decision making if they feel regret about a decision they the next day felt regret about/felt was the wrong decision. And Jordan made the right decision, using this rule in that way, knowing that the Clippers probably were a better situation for him, and eventually feeling the love he wanted to feel from the organisation.

It will hurt the Mavericks from a competitive standpoint for next season.

But all within the rules. Albeit an usual set of rules.

Similar has happened before, though never before with a max contract player like Jordan which is why there is all the publicity around this topic.

The Mavs have seemed to get Deron Williams so they still get a Gun Player

 

[Knightmare]

The Mavs have seemed to get Deron Williams so they still get a Gun Player

Deron Williams is a once was. In his all star years he was one of the best point guards in the game.

Today Williams is no longer a worthwhile starter - and with Brooklyn buying him out that should be obvious.

With William's you only have to look at his deteriorating numbers per game and per 36 minutes getting worse every season. Also his shooting percentage is appalling shooting 38.7%.

Williams on offense hogs the ball. Doesn't drive to the rack as he did so well early career. And then defensively doesn't go after guys as he once did either. He now completely lacks a point of difference. Has no athleticism at this stage in his career.

He is no more worth more than the veteran minimum, particularly as a coach-killer and a player considered destructive to team-chemistry and someone who contributes more to losing than winning.

Basically Brooklyn will be better as a result of no longer having to put up with Williams.

 

[wicksy]

There's a chance.... I'm not sure how Stephenson and Crawford work together in the 2nd unit with both looking to have the ball.
Wouldn't mind us taking Haywood's contract and flipping it for a decent backup to DJ (if he stays) or a Wilson Chandler.

First Unit

CP3
JJ
Johnson
Griffin
DJ

Second Unit

Rivers
Stephenson/Jamal
Paul Pierce
Dawson
Baby


2nd unit is small but has fire power. Loving what i'm seeing from Dawson in the Summer League. He is ready to play.
That's a championship calibre team right there with a good mix of vet experience and youth.

Add Smith to this now..... Officially the best roster in the league now.

 

[nahnah]

Add Smith to this now..... Officially the best roster in the league now.

I wouldn't say it's the best, it has a lot of potential with stephenson and smith now on the roster to be a complete train wreck.. But if all goes well it's up there

 

[wicksy]

I wouldn't say it's the best, it has a lot of potential with stephenson and smith now on the roster to be a complete train wreck.. But if all goes well it's up there

Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Clippers

No other roster comes close.

 

[Knightmare]

Add Smith to this now..... Officially the best roster in the league now.

The Clippers are now a contending team in the West.

I wouldn't have the Clippers making my Western conference finals. But it's the first time this group has looked like it could come out of the West.

Cavs, Warriors, Spurs, Clippers

No other roster comes close.

The Bulls I look at as better than everyone but the Cavs and Warriors, or I would if Thibs was coaching.

I love the young player talent identification through the draft and I loved the played development the Bulls had going under Thibs, who helped his 2-4 year players particularly, or those coming from other franchises play basketball to an entirely new level and breakout beyond anyone's wildest projections.

I love the roster of:
C: Noah
PF: Gasol
SF: McDermott
SG: Butler
PG: Rose
Bench:
Portis
Gibson
Mirotic
Dunleavy
Snell
Hinrich
Brooks

There are four all stars, two current all stars, one former MVP, another is a previous NBA All First Team player and NBA Defensive player of the year. Rose and Noah both played below their ability, and Noah if he returns to his more natural centre position and protecting around the rim and running the defense will be much better. And Rose with another year back will be better and draw on his strong play through the playoffs.

McDermott can be and should start. He is Kyle Korver but with a better rounded game as a better scorer in terms of being able to score closer to the rim, mid range, in the post, get to the line etc as well as hit his catch and shoot 3s on a high level.

Portis is a heck of an energy player and a rare perimeter defender for a big guy. He is also an excellent and efficient scorer and excellent offensive rebounder.

Gibson is a starting quality power forward and would start on probably 10 teams. And obviously is more than handy as a high level and versatile defender, very good rebounder, excellent finisher around the rim, then good mid range shooter.

Mirotic is James Harden in a power forwards body and has that same ability to score in any number of ways, getting to the rim, getting to the line at ease, hitting from mid range of 3 point range.

Dunleavy hits his open 3s, moves the bal well and plays good two way team basketball.

Snell can be something like Butler with better catch and shoot 3pt ability. Excellent defender. Can slash and get to the rim. Hits his 3s. So underutilised last year and can play a big role.

Hinrich struggled last season but should be healthier on reduced minutes this season. Still a dogged defender and can play a role and annoy guards.

Then Brooks can really score a lot in a hurry and be a big time energiser bunny off the bench on offense.

--
Both in terms of a starting group, then the numbers of really good options. I love the Bulls.

Coach Fred Hoiberg I won't be sure about until I see him.

Thibodeau I'd be confident to see develop Mirotic, Snell, McDermott and Portis into genuine and high level starters.

Hoiberg, probably not. He will help create a better flow on offense, put guys in better positions to succeed. Get the ball moving better. Up the court quicker with a quicker pace. Defensively and from a player development standpoint, I just can't see that same rapid growth as Thibs helped his players achieve each year.

I also expect under Hoiberg Jimmy Butler's performance to fall away, as he won't be utilised and leaned upon as heavily which Butler really thrived upon. Then Gasol I expect also to regress due to age and due to Thibs helping him play to a career best standard last year.

But Rose and Noah can be better at least as healthier players this season.

But Thibs is the standard I expect and knowing him, I know what he can do/could have done with his players.

----
As for actual contenders next year. Warriors, Cavs, Spurs. And that's where I'd stop.

The Clippers are better. Paul Pierce is clutch. Josh Smith is a nice big. Austin Rivers is improving. They're just not with an aged Pierce and Crawford who will probably fall away from now, get that chip.

 

[sirlothie]

Deron Williams is a once was. In his all star years he was one of the best point guards in the game.

Today Williams is no longer a worthwhile starter - and with Brooklyn buying him out that should be obvious.

With William's you only have to look at his deteriorating numbers per game and per 36 minutes getting worse every season. Also his shooting percentage is appalling shooting 38.7%.

Williams on offense hogs the ball. Doesn't drive to the rack as he did so well early career. And then defensively doesn't go after guys as he once did either. He now completely lacks a point of difference. Has no athleticism at this stage in his career.

He is no more worth more than the veteran minimum, particularly as a coach-killer and a player considered destructive to team-chemistry and someone who contributes more to losing than winning.

Basically Brooklyn will be better as a result of no longer having to put up with Williams.

Obviously your not a fan of Williams.

 

[Knightmare]

Obviously your not a fan of Williams.

Deron Williams was excellent at Utah under Jerry Sloane when he played with Boozer and Okur, and drove to the rim more and was part of a system. He was widely considered at the time and rightly the second best point guard in the game behind Chris Paul for several years there, and against Chris Paul specifically had a habit of winning that matchup as the bigger of the two.

But then Sloane decided to retire as he was sick of Williams, and Williams' body broke down and Utah traded him. Williams from a performance standpoint hasn't been the same and this past season and past few seasons has been entirely ineffective

You should read the stuff by basketball writers who write about Williams. The tone is consistently along the lines of. He is a coach killer. Chemistry killer. Terrible for coaches, players and media people alike to deal with. When he plays, he pretty much clocks in, clocks out and he is done, not really wanting to be there. Not offering any kind of on-court leadership.
And based on the guys I read, my opinion of Williams the person has formed.

And in watching Williams play. My view of him on the court has formed. And he is now a once was who isn't even a starting quality point guard anymore.

 

[wicksy]

----
As for actual contenders next year. Warriors, Cavs, Spurs. And that's where I'd stop.

As a comparison with the Spurs alone, I think the Clippers on paper are better.

- (Draw)
+1 (Better)
+2 (Much Better)

Starters
PG: Parker v Paul (Clippers +2)
SG: Ginobli v Redick (-)
SF: Leonard v Pierce (Spurs +2)
PF: Aldridge v Griffin (Clippers +1)
C: Duncan v Jordan (Spurs + 1)

Bench
PG: Mills v Rivers (-)
SG: ??? v Crawford (Clippers + 2) -- Spurs literally don't have a backup SG and will have to actively rotate through starters
SF: Green v Stephenson (Clippers + 1)
PF: Bonner v Smith (Clippers + 2) -- Seriously low depth currently for the Spurs to have to use Bonner in the 2nd rotation
C: Diaw v Aldrich (-) -- Diaw better offensively but would get mauled on defense


On paper, the Clippers are the better team. They may also have the psychological edge over the Spurs.
PS: If we're writing off the clips because of Pierce and Jamal's age then surely you should be writing off the Spurs due to their big (and really old) 3.

 

[Knightmare]

As a comparison with the Spurs alone, I think the Clippers on paper are better.

- (Draw)
+1 (Better)
+2 (Much Better)

Starters
PG: Parker v Paul (Clippers +2)
SG: Ginobli v Redick (-)
SF: Leonard v Pierce (Spurs +2)
PF: Aldridge v Griffin (Clippers +1)
C: Duncan v Jordan (Spurs + 1)

Bench
PG: Mills v Rivers (-)
SG: ??? v Crawford (Clippers + 2) -- Spurs literally don't have a backup SG and will have to actively rotate through starters
SF: Green v Stephenson (Clippers + 1)
PF: Bonner v Smith (Clippers + 2) -- Seriously low depth currently for the Spurs to have to use Bonner in the 2nd rotation
C: Diaw v Aldrich (-) -- Diaw better offensively but would get mauled on defense


On paper, the Clippers are the better team. They may also have the psychological edge over the Spurs.
PS: If we're writing off the clips because of Pierce and Jamal's age then surely you should be writing off the Spurs due to their big (and really old) 3.

I see things somewhat differently in a Spurs v Clippers matchup, and to go with your system.
PG: Paul +1 (assuming Parker is less bad next season, +0 if he is back to 2013/2014 form and +2 in Paul's favour if as bad as last season)
SG: D.Green +1
SF: Leonard +2
PF: +0
C: +0

Bench:
PG: Mills +1
SG: +0 (Ginobili v Crawford)
SF: Stephenson +1 (over K.Anderson)
PF: +0 (D.West v J.Smith)
C: Diaw +1

So overall I've got the Spurs on paper the better team. Both the starting group and bench.

-- Basically the summary is the frontlines are equal. Duncan/Aldridge/West and Griffen/Jordan/Smith cancel eachother out, the Spurs may have that extra good option in Diaw to add an extra number, but that's the only even marginal edge I see there. With the frontlines one group can take advantage of the other on their night, but much of a muchness is what I'm seeing. On the perimeter is where I see the Spurs being better rounded still, most specifically at the SF/SG spots with Leonard/Green/Ginobili better than Pierce/Stephenson/Crawford/Redick with Leonard the major difference and Green also a little better than the options the Clips have. Then at the point, CP3 if Parker plays as poorly as he did last year is the better option, otherwise for me both can have an equal impact. Then Mills as a backup point for me more impactful as the more ready now impact player.

The keys through like with the Spurs for the Clippers. The Clippers are better and critically have more depth which was the major limitation. J.Smith and Stephenson are nice additions if they don't mess around and stay focused and Paul Pierce is a great fit as a clutch shooter and a leader who can bring some maturity to a still young locker-room. So it's a better team.

The issue as with most teams most years. Those other good teams are also getting better. And therein lies the challenge.

It doesn't mean things can't change by seasons end though, injuries can happen and change things, other roster moves etc, can always change the balance of power.

But our West. I still have the Warriors winning the West. And the Spurs as that second best team out West.

 

[wicksy]

I see things somewhat differently in a Spurs v Clippers matchup, and to go with your system.
PG: Paul +1 (assuming Parker is less bad next season, +0 if he is back to 2013/2014 form and +2 in Paul's favour if as bad as last season)
SG: D.Green +1
SF: Leonard +2
PF: +0
C: +0

Bench:
PG: Mills +1
SG: +0 (Ginobili v Crawford)
SF: Stephenson +1 (over K.Anderson)
PF: +0 (D.West v J.Smith)
C: Diaw +1

So overall I've got the Spurs on paper the better team. Both the starting group and bench.

-- Basically the summary is the frontlines are equal. Duncan/Aldridge/West and Griffen/Jordan/Smith cancel eachother out, the Spurs may have that extra good option in Diaw to add an extra number, but that's the only even marginal edge I see there. With the frontlines one group can take advantage of the other on their night, but much of a muchness is what I'm seeing. On the perimeter is where I see the Spurs being better rounded still, most specifically at the SF/SG spots with Leonard/Green/Ginobili better than Pierce/Stephenson/Crawford/Redick with Leonard the major difference and Green also a little better than the options the Clips have. Then at the point, CP3 if Parker plays as poorly as he did last year is the better option, otherwise for me both can have an equal impact. Then Mills as a backup point for me more impactful as the more ready now impact player.

The keys through like with the Spurs for the Clippers. The Clippers are better and critically have more depth which was the major limitation. J.Smith and Stephenson are nice additions if they don't mess around and stay focused and Paul Pierce is a great fit as a clutch shooter and a leader who can bring some maturity to a still young locker-room. So it's a better team.

The issue as with most teams most years. Those other good teams are also getting better. And therein lies the challenge.

It doesn't mean things can't change by seasons end though, injuries can happen and change things, other roster moves etc, can always change the balance of power.

But our West. I still have the Warriors winning the West. And the Spurs as that second best team out West.

I completely forgot about West at the Spurs.... That does alter their make up.
I think it will be a cracker match up that might actually come down to X's and O's.
If it does, then you're probably right that the Spurs look better.... Pop is a brilliant tactician!!

PS Thank God for West.... Having to start the 2nd unit with the Red Mamba would have just been embarrassing.

 

[nahnah]

Really annoyed Crawford isn't coming to cavs, or seems unlikely

 

[Knightmare]

I completely forgot about West at the Spurs.... That does alter their make up.
I think it will be a cracker match up that might actually come down to X's and O's.
If it does, then you're probably right that the Spurs look better.... Pop is a brilliant tactician!!

PS Thank God for West.... Having to start the 2nd unit with the Red Mamba would have just been embarrassing.

It's another and even more deep rotation for the Spurs, which really is saying something.

Bonner can be situationally inserted into games when a 3 is needed or they want to stretch the floor - though Aldridge will do that in combination well with Duncan anyway - though both are more long 2 point shooters.

They've also added some international bigs. Then Kyle Anderson is another stretch four and he could pass Bonner by. So that's a deep frontline.

Ray McCallum is a pretty easy replacement for Cory Joseph. Reggie Williams is another depth wing who can play as required.

It's a really good team if the vets stay healthy and productive. And they'll be managed. So they can.


--
In other interesting news. The Rockets also are better. Ty Lawson is a good point guard. I don't like him as a fit for the Rockets, and I don't think he'll really make them that much better as a tiny point guard who on defense won't help the Rockets on the perimeter, and is more someone who wants the ball than to play off the ball. But it's still an upgrade to a not great but still good team.

 

[Knightmare]

Really annoyed Crawford isn't coming to cavs, or seems unlikely

The Cavs are in a strange place.

Has Thompson even signed?

JR Smith should have opted in, and he seems to be in limbo at the moment. And may well not return with Mo Williams there, who was a good pickup. But that salary cap is getting awfully tight.

There were rumours of Brendan Haywood and Anderson Varajao for Joe Johnson, but now the Nets have cut D.Williams that isn't expected to happen.

Now that the Clippers have Jordan back, Crawford surely isn't leaving as a salary dump.

The Cavs surely move Haywood for some kind of perimeter player.

It will be interesting to see whether the Cavs can bring everyone back and turn Haywood and/or Varajao into anything useful.

 

[nahnah]

The Cavs are in a strange place.

Has Thompson even signed?

JR Smith should have opted in, and he seems to be in limbo at the moment. And may well not return with Mo Williams there, who was a good pickup. But that salary cap is getting awfully tight.

There were rumours of Brendan Haywood and Anderson Varajao for Joe Johnson, but now the Nets have cut D.Williams that isn't expected to happen.

Now that the Clippers have Jordan back, Crawford surely isn't leaving as a salary dump.

The Cavs surely move Haywood for some kind of perimeter player.

It will be interesting to see whether the Cavs can bring everyone back and turn Haywood and/or Varajao into anything useful.

No thompson hasn't signed, bit weird given most players have yet no rumours linking him to any other team.
JR is an idiot and should have opted in, I don't care if he comes back or not tbh
Delly still hasn't signed, I actually wouldn't mind seeing the cavs replace him with Sykes if they wanna save money
Cavs a rumoured to be in talks with Sash Kaun, who they've had rights to for almost a decade
There is no interest in haywood, only thing I've heard is trading him to portland for a trade exception

 

[Knightmare]

No thompson hasn't signed, bit weird given most players have yet no rumours linking him to any other team.
JR is an idiot and should have opted in, I don't care if he comes back or not tbh
Delly still hasn't signed, I actually wouldn't mind seeing the cavs replace him with Sykes if they wanna save money
Cavs a rumoured to be in talks with Sash Kaun, who they've had rights to for almost a decade
There is no interest in haywood, only thing I've heard is trading him to portland for a trade exception

The talk is Delly wants $4m, which is entirely too much for the Cavs. And surely he won't get that money anywhere.

For Haywood, it's only really salary dumps that teams would consider.

Unless the Cavs bring back Thompson, JR, Delly. That was the optimal usage of Haywood, whereby he and Varajao could be traded for a Joe Johnson, then it's just a straight roster upgrade.


Maybe Mello can be had if NYK want to start over and that really goes wrong this season. Maybe Brookyn change their mind on Johnson. Kobe? Brook Lopez if he gets hurt and Brookyn want to get out from under that contract. Chandler Parsons and or Wesley Matthews if Dallas go into rebuild mode this season - which they may.
So those could be among those ideas Cleveland investigate if nothing happens now, which in all likelihood won't.

 

[nahnah]

The talk is Delly wants $4m, which is entirely too much for the Cavs. And surely he won't get that money anywhere.

For Haywood, it's only really salary dumps that teams would consider.

Unless the Cavs bring back Thompson, JR, Delly. That was the optimal usage of Haywood, whereby he and Varajao could be traded for a Joe Johnson, then it's just a straight roster upgrade.


Maybe Mello can be had if NYK want to start over and that really goes wrong this season. Maybe Brookyn change their mind on Johnson. Kobe? Brook Lopez if he gets hurt and Brookyn want to get out from under that contract. Chandler Parsons and or Wesley Matthews if Dallas go into rebuild mode this season - which they may.
So those could be among those ideas Cleveland investigate if nothing happens now, which in all likelihood won't.

Delly is restricted so he can demand all the money he wants but the cavs will let the market determine his value
Not sure exactly how you think Melo or Kobe are even a remote possibility.
I wanted matthews hopeful things go wrong in dallas and that eventuates.

 

[wicksy]

Delly is restricted so he can demand all the money he wants but the cavs will let the market determine his value
Not sure exactly how you think Melo or Kobe are even a remote possibility.
I wanted matthews hopeful things go wrong in dallas and that eventuates.

There ain't no way in hell that Kobe would be down for playing 2nd fiddle to Lebron. NO WAY!!!
As reported last night, he's already in discussions with Barcelona to move there next season so that his ego can remain as bloated as a beached whale.

 

[Knightmare]

Delly is restricted so he can demand all the money he wants but the cavs will let the market determine his value
Not sure exactly how you think Melo or Kobe are even a remote possibility.
I wanted matthews hopeful things go wrong in dallas and that eventuates.

Mello and Kobe I look at from the perspective of, I see them both as being finished, along with their teams.

NYK are in rebuilding mode. Mello doesn't really want to be there. And won't be around for when NYK become relevant again, with his game deteriorating and injuries piling up. I don't necessary expect a trade happens this season, but I'm think there is a big chance by the end of his contract that he will be moved.

As for Kobe. It's the same story. He is on a crap team. His game has deteriorated. He doesn't really want to be there. This will be his final year, so the assumption will be that he remains a one team player. And Kobe sells tickets, so from that perspective, they'll surely retain him. But it's still not out of the question Kobe requests a trade in the hope of getting ring 6 to equal MJ, and have the Lakers honour his wish.

There ain't no way in hell that Kobe would be down for playing 2nd fiddle to Lebron. NO WAY!!!
As reported last night, he's already in discussions with Barcelona to move there next season so that his ego can remain as bloated as a beached whale.

It's a pretty good way to travel post-career. Go play a year or two of basketball in Europe. Travel while there. In his position, I'd look at it as a lifestyle thing mostly. And look to build up his brand while there.

Playing overseas isn't enhancing his legacy and in many ways I see it detracting from it, as Euroball really given his standing in the game really is beneath him from the perspective of it's just not the same standing of competition.

 

[nahnah]

Cavs signed Ricard Jefferson, so currently:
PG: Irving, Williams
SG: Shumpert, Harris, Miller
SF: James, Jefferson, Pointer
PF: Love, Varejao, Jones
C: Mozgov, Haywood, Chrsitmas

what I'm hoping for:
PG: Irving, Williams, Delly
SG: Shumpert, JR, Harris
SF: James, Jefferson, Miller
PF: Love, Thompson, Jones
C: Mozgov, Varejao, Kaun