The off topic thread 4.0

[ADL9798]

Personally think the government was damned no matter what their response was.

This is a cop out.

Governments who have implemented evidence-based public health measures quickly and decisively to control their outbreaks have been praised, those who have delayed making decisions and/or ignored the evidence have been criticised. Unlike most issues governments face, a virus like SARS-CoV-2 exposes the latter in real time with numerous global comparators creating a clear line of sight for accountability. It also exposes bottlenecks and failures in systems and long term planning, which also comes down to leadership.

By contrast, despite polarising the country on a few occasions during his term to date, there has been near universal praise for Scott Morrison and the Australian government for their response to this pandemic. Another centre-right government in Germany is also being praised. This isn’t a cheerleading exercise in right/left wing politics. UK residents should be demanding better from their government.

 

[moomba]

? You’ll have to explain to me how these things aren’t correlated.

Because "leadership" doesn't make decisions.

 

[moomba]

This is a cop out.

Governments who have implemented evidence-based public health measures quickly and decisively to control their outbreaks have been praised, those who have delayed making decisions and/or ignored the evidence have been criticised. Unlike most issues governments face, a virus like SARS-CoV-2 exposes the latter in real time with numerous global comparators creating a clear line of sight for accountability. It also exposes bottlenecks and failures in systems and long term planning, which also comes down to leadership.

By contrast, despite polarising the country on a few occasions during his term to date, there has been near universal praise for Scott Morrison and the Australian government for their response to this pandemic. Another centre-right government in Germany is also being praised. This isn’t a cheerleading exercise in right/left wing politics. UK residents should be demanding better from their government.

I hope they are making the right calls. I hope the scientists and medical experts that have studied and prepared for this sort of thing are giving the right advice.

I'm not going to demand better from the government because things aren't black and white, and despite thousands of new experts in pandemics and virology seeming to think they have all the answers I doubt they do.

What I don't want is when the government or the scientists or medical experts start handing out advice to the public is that they listen and follow it.

The more people read and hear how bad they are supposedly doing the less likely people will listen.

There will be a time and place for reviewing the effectiveness of decisions made over the past month or so. Making that judgement now is counter productive imo.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

This is a cop out.

Governments who have implemented evidence-based public health measures quickly and decisively to control their outbreaks have been praised, those who have delayed making decisions and/or ignored the evidence have been criticised. Unlike most issues governments face, a virus like SARS-CoV-2 exposes the latter in real time with numerous global comparators creating a clear line of sight for accountability. It also exposes bottlenecks and failures in systems and long term planning, which also comes down to leadership.

By contrast, despite polarising the country on a few occasions during his term to date, there has been near universal praise for Scott Morrison and the Australian government for their response to this pandemic. Another centre-right government in Germany is also being praised. This isn’t a cheerleading exercise in right/left wing politics. UK residents should be demanding better from their government.

UK residents are hoping that 1/3rd of its residents start adhering to the government guidance and stop being selfish campaigners spreading the virus.

You are completely wrong on the UK's approach. It is pretty funny given that Whitty has outlined it
Any times on TV

 

[Art Vandelay_]

UK residents are hoping that 1/3rd of its residents start adhering to the government guidance and stop being selfish campaigners spreading the virus.

You are completely wrong on the UK's approach. It is pretty funny given that Whitty has outlined it
Any times on TV

That’s pretty shitty.

I think our modelling had new cases trending upwards if 70% or less adhered to social distancing and staying home. 80% or higher would see the curve flatten and cases drop.

Our cases are dropping so to have 30-35% being selfish is pretty poor behaviour.

Had to go into work (on my leave) last Friday so that a colleague of mine could help send through an obituary I needed to put in the paper. Walking home saw 6 uni age people playing football on an oval. Went into the carpark, took pics of their number plates and reported them.

I mean **** them really, I don’t want my grandparents or grandparents of my friends, family or workmates getting covid-19 because people aren’t adhering to the rules.

A third of Brits being selfish you say. Twats.

 

[Zidane98]

This is a cop out.

Governments who have implemented evidence-based public health measures quickly and decisively to control their outbreaks have been praised, those who have delayed making decisions and/or ignored the evidence have been criticised. Unlike most issues governments face, a virus like SARS-CoV-2 exposes the latter in real time with numerous global comparators creating a clear line of sight for accountability. It also exposes bottlenecks and failures in systems and long term planning, which also comes down to leadership.

By contrast, despite polarising the country on a few occasions during his term to date, there has been near universal praise for Scott Morrison and the Australian government for their response to this pandemic. Another centre-right government in Germany is also being praised. This isn’t a cheerleading exercise in right/left wing politics. UK residents should be demanding better from their government.

Yep. Look at Taiwan/Sth Korea - both densley populated nations with high exposure that have managed to curtail COVID19 without even locking down. Mass testing prograns, aggresuve contact tracing and isolation programs have been very effective for them.

 

[ADL9798]

UK residents are hoping that 1/3rd of its residents start adhering to the government guidance and stop being selfish campaigners spreading the virus.

You are completely wrong on the UK's approach. It is pretty funny given that Whitty has outlined it
Any times on TV

After completely reworking their response strategy the UK appear to be heading down the right track now, albeit after incurring a cost for the weeks of lost time early on.

I hope they are making the right calls. I hope the scientists and medical experts that have studied and prepared for this sort of thing are giving the right advice.

I'm not going to demand better from the government because things aren't black and white, and despite thousands of new experts in pandemics and virology seeming to think they have all the answers I doubt they do.

What I don't want is when the government or the scientists or medical experts start handing out advice to the public is that they listen and follow it.

The more people read and hear how bad they are supposedly doing the less likely people will listen.

There will be a time and place for reviewing the effectiveness of decisions made over the past month or so. Making that judgement now is counter productive imo.

“We shouldn’t criticise anyone involved in making these poor decisions in the past because everyone needs to listen to their advice now and I might influence people not to”. Not sure I necessarily agree with this logic, but in any case, it’s an AFL internet forum not the BBC news.

I’ve worked for many years in health system planning, working for and with government. To absolve political or technocratic leadership of any accountability on this or suggest they do not influence or have involvement in decision making indicates a misunderstanding of the governance of our respective health systems and how our governments function in general.

We have enough real world data to go off at this point to identify which countries have had flawed approaches in terms of minimising the impact of the first wave. There are other variables, but some accountability must fall to elected officials who ultimately make the final call on whether and when to, for example, close borders, or introduce emergency legislative powers to compel people to follow social distancing guidelines.

The good news for the UK is that belatedly they seem to be back on the right path and yes, people should and hopefully will be listening to their advice now which appears to be back in alignment with the WHO and consensus from most infectious disease experts around the world.

 

[SM]

Just watched Parasite, what a great movie.

Where did you stream 1917 from Cruyff14 ?

Yeah watched it Saturday, awesome film.

 

[SM]

It has nothing to do with leadership imo.

It has to do with planning and decisions, and for me now isn't the time to be judging the effectiveness of that.

Personally think the government was damned no matter what their response was. People are very keen to politicise the current situation and for me I'm finding it particularly unhelpful.

There was a story in the paper the other day criticising the scientists and medical people responsible for formulating policy. Thought it was really irresponsible, when the last thing we need is people ignoring advice because a newspaper is telling people that the people making the decisions aren't competent.

Wasn't the CMO of Scotland sacked for ignoring medical advice?

 

[moomba]

Wasn't the CMO of Scotland sacked for ignoring medical advice?

She resigned because a newspaper caught her visiting her second home when her advice was to stay at home.

 

[moomba]

After completely reworking their response strategy the UK appear to be heading down the right track now, albeit after incurring a cost for the weeks of lost time early on.



“We shouldn’t criticise anyone involved in making these poor decisions in the past because everyone needs to listen to their advice now and I might influence people not to”. Not sure I necessarily agree with this logic, but in any case, it’s an AFL internet forum not the BBC news.

I’ve worked for many years in health system planning, working for and with government. To absolve political or technocratic leadership of any accountability on this or suggest they do not influence or have involvement in decision making indicates a misunderstanding of the governance of our respective health systems and how our governments function in general.

We have enough real world data to go off at this point to identify which countries have had flawed approaches in terms of minimising the impact of the first wave. There are other variables, but some accountability must fall to elected officials who ultimately make the final call on whether and when to, for example, close borders, or introduce emergency legislative powers to compel people to follow social distancing guidelines.

The good news for the UK is that belatedly they seem to be back on the right path and yes, people should and hopefully will be listening to their advice now which appears to be back in alignment with the WHO and consensus from most infectious disease experts around the world.

No one is saying anyone should be absolved of blame.

In your own words you think the government is heading down the right track so I wonder what is to be gained by the UK public demanding the government do better right now.

It can only undermine the message they are trying to put out, and right now (more than any time in my life) it's extremely important that the public listen to authorities and follow their advice.

When it's all over there will be enquiries and studies done on the government response. The government will need to explain why they took the actions they did.

 

[undefined]

Had to go into work (on my leave) last Friday so that a colleague of mine could help send through an obituary I needed to put in the paper. Walking home saw 6 uni age people playing football on an oval. Went into the carpark, took pics of their number plates and reported them.

You're truly the hero that Geelong residents deserve.

 

[Cruyff14]

Just watched Parasite, what a great movie.

Where did you stream 1917 from Cruyff14 ?

Downloaded it mate

 

[SM]

She resigned because a newspaper caught her visiting her second home when her advice was to stay at home.

Interesting.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You're truly the hero that Geelong residents deserve.

Have no idea if sincere or taking the piss but whatever.
It’s no fun working in the community dealing with people all day, colleagues considering quitting to protect their families.

 

[RPCB]

Have no idea if sincere or taking the piss but whatever.
It’s no fun working in the community dealing with people all day, colleagues considering quitting to protect their families.

I take pressure out of knowing that there are people getting fined for shirking these rules and they can’t find even plead ignorance, “I didn’t know about these rules”. Everyone in the world knows about these rules.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

After completely reworking their response strategy the UK appear to be heading down the right track now, albeit after incurring a cost for the weeks of lost time early on.



“We shouldn’t criticise anyone involved in making these poor decisions in the past because everyone needs to listen to their advice now and I might influence people not to”. Not sure I necessarily agree with this logic, but in any case, it’s an AFL internet forum not the BBC news.

I’ve worked for many years in health system planning, working for and with government. To absolve political or technocratic leadership of any accountability on this or suggest they do not influence or have involvement in decision making indicates a misunderstanding of the governance of our respective health systems and how our governments function in general.

We have enough real world data to go off at this point to identify which countries have had flawed approaches in terms of minimising the impact of the first wave. There are other variables, but some accountability must fall to elected officials who ultimately make the final call on whether and when to, for example, close borders, or introduce emergency legislative powers to compel people to follow social distancing guidelines.

The good news for the UK is that belatedly they seem to be back on the right path and yes, people should and hopefully will be listening to their advice now which appears to be back in alignment with the WHO and consensus from most infectious disease experts around the world.

That's a common misinterpretation. But I'm sure you and the recent internet epidemiology experts in the matter know more about it than Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance.

 

[ADL9798]

That's a common misinterpretation. But I'm sure you and the recent internet epidemiology experts in the matter know more about it than Chris Whitty and Sir Patrick Vallance.

Haha. You don’t know a thing about my credentials. Regardless, there have been countless people with expertise in public health, including some of the eminent British clinicians and researchers in this field (and self evidently Whitty and Vallance themselves given their change in approach following receipt of the Imperial College report) who thought the UK government‘s original strategy was flawed. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

You’re cheerleading like the Tories are your favourite football team at this point.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Haha. You don’t know a thing about my credentials. Regardless, there have been thousands of people with expertise in public health, including some of the eminent British clinicians and researchers in this field (and self evidently Whitty and Vallance themselves given their change in approach following receipt of the Imperial College report) who thought the UK government‘s original strategy was flawed. This isn’t a controversial opinion.

You’re cheerleading like the Tories are your favourite football team at this point.

I don't need to know about your credentials unless you are more qualified than Whitty and Vallance to talk on the subject....which I'm tipping you aren't.

As a Liverpool fan I'd expect you to be Tory after your clubs recent actions.

I don't think it's smart to blame the government for people's inability to adhere to basic rules. Is it cheerleading to support the government in a time of crisis rather than undermine them?

 

[jd2010]

I don't need to know about your credentials unless you are more qualified than Whitty and Vallance to talk on the subject....which I'm tipping you aren't.

As a Liverpool fan I'd expect you to be Tory after your clubs recent actions.

I don't think it's smart to blame the government for people's inability to adhere to basic rules. Is it cheerleading to support the government in a time of crisis rather than undermine them?

Reminds me of a few teacher mates of mine who take pot shots at the Chief Health Officer. They're not even science teachers, at the time I wasn't sure how they could justify challenging an expert in their field but I'm regularly telling Serge Aurier how to be a right back!

 

[moomba]

(and self evidently Whitty and Vallance themselves given their change in approach following receipt of the Imperial College report).

Rightly or wrongly, they have said there wasn't a drastic change in approach, and further lockdown measures were always part of the strategy but they had to get the timing of it right. Sustained periods of lockdown can lead to significant financial and social problems.

Personally I think that if we locked down before the large numbers of deaths started to be publicised it would have been ignored more than it is today.

 

[99 Problems]

Boris was bragging about shaking hands in a hospital with people who had tested positive for the virus, and told the public “we should be going about our business as usual”. Italy was already in crisis. A week later he calls it “the worst public health crisis in a generation”.

People should be responsible for their own actions and blaming the government is a cop out for most flouting the rules, but it’s easy to see why people didn’t take it seriously when that’s what came from the man in charge.

 

[WealstoneRaider]

People who are criticising western governments initial response should take a look back to their own posts in January and February. No one was taking this thing seriously, Even in March we were all still joking about it. This is mainly because the Chinese government tried to cover the extent of how serious it was.

 

[Ahsog]

Watched Tiger King. What a weird documentary. Don’t know what to make of it.

 

[ADL9798]

I don't need to know about your credentials unless you are more qualified than Whitty and Vallance to talk on the subject....which I'm tipping you aren't.

Haha. Will keep that in mind next time you have a crack at Olé.

Again, this isn’t a controversial opinion. The data speaks for itself. I’m one of many people around the world working in public health who have been critical of the UK’s response (more specifically, delays in key decision making, poor testing coverage and associated diminished ability to effectively isolate and contact trace for all cases, PPE supply, flippant messaging from the PM), many of those voices would be just as highly regarded in this field as the people responsible for making those decisions in the UK, certainly moreso than the politicians with whom the buck stops. Not that it matters. Anyone holding public office is answerable to the taxpayer. Any scientist should be open to having their theories challenged.

Listen to their advice at this point, sure, but I’m not sure I understand the clamour to deify them or any other key decision makers for the UK covid response when you have Chief Health Officers and political leaders in other countries who have been demonstrably more effective at coordinating suppression of the outbreak to date. Morrison and the Australian Health Protection Principal Committee for one.

Thankfully some of these issues have now been addressed, likely preventing thousands of deaths down the track, but that shouldn’t mean we preclude anyone but other Chief Health Officers from pointing out that there were flaws in the early UK response.