The off topic thread 5.0

[Bojan KantKick]

Hm, I'd hope when you're posting things of this nature you believe it, otherwise it's just spreading misinformation and foiler theories.

I don't think it spreading misinformation at all. Nobody has taken responsibility for it. I read a good article comparing the situation to the Orient Express. Everyone has a motive but only the guilty seem to know who did it at this stage. Sometimes I post things to encourage debate as well. The journalist in this case is extremely well credentialed so in my mind his view warrants attention.

Someone responding that something is debunked without evidence doesn't help the situation. How has it been debunked?

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Another falsehood.

Corruption Index - Countries - List

The Corruption Perceptions Index (CPI) is published annually by Transparency International, a non-governmental organisation. The Corruption Perceptions Index ranks countries by their perceived levels of public sector corruption on a scale from 0 (highly corrupt) to 100 (not corrupt).

tradingeconomics.com

Ukraine's mid table for corruption and notably less corrupt than Russia. To say it is one of the most corrupt if not the most corrupt country in the world is simply false.


Freedom of press index sees Ukraine at 106:

RSF’s 2022 World Press Freedom Index : a new era of polarisation

The 20th World Press Freedom Index published by Reporters Without Borders (RSF) reveals a two-fold increase in polarisation amplified by information chaos – that is, media polarisation fuelling divisions within countries, as well as polarisation between countries at the international level.

rsf.org

Notably superior to Russia's 155 ranking which is closer to North Korea's score than Ukraine.



Putin still moans about the USSR breaking up ffs. His motive is clear - he wants to expand the Russian empire. The people of Ukraine have shown that they do not want to be a Russian puppet state like Belarus and Putin's mate Lukashenka. He needs to GTFO out of Ukraine and let Europe live in peace.

Europe was at peace until quite recently. I wonder what happened. What reason did Putin give for the invasion?

 

[Zidane98]

I don't think it spreading misinformation at all. Nobody has taken responsibility for it. I read a good article comparing the situation to the Orient Express. Everyone has a motive but only the guilty seem to know who did it at this stage. Sometimes I post things to encourage debate as well. The journalist in this case is extremely well credentialed so in my mind his view warrants attention.

Someone responding that something is debunked without evidence doesn't help the situation. How has it been debunked?

The Maidan in 2014 is a coup d'etat: a review of Italian and German pro-Russian media

On November 21, 2013, Kyiv residents protested peacefully against the recently the decision, adopted by the Cabinet of Ministers, aimed...

voxukraine.org

It's a load of nonsense to suggest this is the US mate and incredibly disrespectful to Ukranian people who are the driving force behind not being a Russian puppet state any longer. They've suffered many times in the past by the Russians (Holomodor, previous Tsaris Russian empire trying to quash Ukranian culture and language in Ukraine). Take a read of this for a succint, factual based analysis:

The Maidan in 2014 is a coup d'etat: a review of Italian and German pro-Russian media

On November 21, 2013, Kyiv residents protested peacefully against the recently the decision, adopted by the Cabinet of Ministers, aimed...

voxukraine.org

Democratic elections were also held in June 2014 where the Party of Regions participated (Yanukovych's Pro Russian puppet party):

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their representative lost comprehensively in this election. This cannot be anyway painted as a coup no matter what way you play it.

And claims of the far right running things are just flat out Russian based lies. They've got at best 2% of the Rada seats and 3% of regions seats. Far right nationalists are actually far more prevalent in the Russian duma than in Ukraine in reality.

 

[Zidane98]

Europe was at peace until quite recently. I wonder what happened. What reason did Putin give for the invasion?

What happened was a modern day Hitler made a play for another country believing it to be a possession of Russia's dating back to the USSR era.

 

[SM]

I don't think it spreading misinformation at all. Nobody has taken responsibility for it. I read a good article comparing the situation to the Orient Express. Everyone has a motive but only the guilty seem to know who did it at this stage. Sometimes I post things to encourage debate as well. The journalist in this case is extremely well credentialed so in my mind his view warrants attention.

Someone responding that something is debunked without evidence doesn't help the situation. How has it been debunked?

The old "I don't believe it I just thought it'd be a good debate so I played devil's advocate" is a really lazy defence mate. Do your research, and if there's no credible sources don't repeat things that will just lead to misunderstanding and misinformation. I'd think that's pretty straightforward.

 

[Zidane98]

This guy is deranged. Goebells would be proud of such rallies. They bussed in government employees for the show.


At this stage it looks like the only hope for peace is someone from within serves Vladimir one of his own specially brewed polonium teas.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

What? You two seem to think I am pro Russian and/or pro Putin when I'm not

Yeah it’s all about Qatar baby.
Quadruple!

 

[Bojan KantKick]

The old "I don't believe it I just thought it'd be a good debate so I played devil's advocate" is a really lazy defence mate. Do your research, and if there's no credible sources don't repeat things that will just lead to misunderstanding and misinformation. I'd think that's pretty straightforward.

Do my research? Well I had a look into the author of the article after reading it. That was sufficient research to determine the article worthy of consideration given the journalists significant career in investigative journalism.

Nobody has provided evidence to 'debunk' this theory. The Russians initially blamed the British for it. How can something be misunderstanding or misinformation if there is no factual evidence to counteract it?

This is an interesting article from Wapo on the subject posted a day ago - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...22/russia-un-nord-stream-hersh-investigation/

 

[Bojan KantKick]

What happened was a modern day Hitler made a play for another country believing it to be a possession of Russia's dating back to the USSR era.

So you haven't bothered to find out the reason that Putin gave quite publicly many times and just made one up yourself.

 

[Zidane98]

So you haven't bothered to find out the reason that Putin gave quite publicly many times and just made one up yourself.

Nope. I posted the real actual reason for his invasion which differs significantly from the ramblings that he made publicly to justify his attack which quite frankly are absolute nonsense.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

The Maidan in 2014 is a coup d'etat: a review of Italian and German pro-Russian media

On November 21, 2013, Kyiv residents protested peacefully against the recently the decision, adopted by the Cabinet of Ministers, aimed...

voxukraine.org

It's a load of nonsense to suggest this is the US mate and incredibly disrespectful to Ukranian people who are the driving force behind not being a Russian puppet state any longer. They've suffered many times in the past by the Russians (Holomodor, previous Tsaris Russian empire trying to quash Ukranian culture and language in Ukraine). Take a read of this for a succint, factual based analysis:

The Maidan in 2014 is a coup d'etat: a review of Italian and German pro-Russian media

On November 21, 2013, Kyiv residents protested peacefully against the recently the decision, adopted by the Cabinet of Ministers, aimed...

voxukraine.org

Democratic elections were also held in June 2014 where the Party of Regions participated (Yanukovych's Pro Russian puppet party):

2014 Ukrainian presidential election - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Their representative lost comprehensively in this election. This cannot be anyway painted as a coup no matter what way you play it.

And claims of the far right running things are just flat out Russian based lies. They've got at best 2% of the Rada seats and 3% of regions seats. Far right nationalists are actually far more prevalent in the Russian duma than in Ukraine in reality.

Thank you for sharing. That is an interesting read. Do you have anything written by them at the time out of interest? I like to see how reporting of subjects can change over time. One thing that jumped out at me was usually when a populace doesn't like what a leader has done, they wait until the next election and vote them out. Not in this case though. I do find it funny that the warmongering John McCain and the head of the CIA just happened to go to Kiev straight after the revolution as you call it.

A few articles worthy of consideration:

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

Seumas Milne: The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

www.theguardian.com

Ukraine crisis: Transcript of leaked Nuland-Pyatt call

A transcript of the alleged conversation between Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and the US ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt discussing the crisis in Ukraine.

www.bbc.co.uk

Many predicted Nato expansion would lead to war. Those warnings were ignored | Ted Galen Carpenter

It has long been clear that Nato expansion would lead to tragedy. We are now paying the price for the US’s arrogance

www.theguardian.com

Time to pay attention when Noam Chomsky and Henry Kissinger agree on Ukraine

www.stopwar.org.uk

Chomsky and Barsamian, In Ukraine, Diplomacy Has Been Ruled Out

The Noam Chomsky Website.

chomsky.info

If you want to know why Ukraine is such an important area strategically then this is a must read - Amazon product ASIN 046509435X
This is a very complicated subject (with almost everyone involved guilty of wrongdoing) and those that seek to overly simplify it have motives for doing so or don't understand the subject fully.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Nope. I posted the real actual reason for his invasion which differs significantly from the ramblings that he made publicly to justify his attack which quite frankly are absolute nonsense.

If you don't bother to listen to peoples reasons for their actions, how can you ever pacify them or even beat them?

 

[SM]

Do my research? Well I had a look into the author of the article after reading it. That was sufficient research to determine the article worthy of consideration given the journalists significant career in investigative journalism.

Nobody has provided evidence to 'debunk' this theory. The Russians initially blamed the British for it. How can something be misunderstanding or misinformation if there is no factual evidence to counteract it?

This is an interesting article from Wapo on the subject posted a day ago - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...22/russia-un-nord-stream-hersh-investigation/

Strange that you don't believe it then.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Strange that you don't believe it then.

Strange that I don't believe what? I like to look at all angles and draw my own conclusions. There is not enough evidence (that I have seen) at this stage for me to draw a conclusion. It is good that an investigation is continuing into Nordstream and I still haven't seen any evidence to 'debunk' the story from Hersh. If anyone has anything solid then please share it.

 

[Bradesmaen]

Do my research? Well I had a look into the author of the article after reading it. That was sufficient research to determine the article worthy of consideration given the journalists significant career in investigative journalism.

Nobody has provided evidence to 'debunk' this theory. The Russians initially blamed the British for it. How can something be misunderstanding or misinformation if there is no factual evidence to counteract it?

This is an interesting article from Wapo on the subject posted a day ago - https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...22/russia-un-nord-stream-hersh-investigation/

Because the guy behind the article was good, but has lately turned into a nutter and there is evidence behind his nutterbutter approach of "unnamed sources".

 

[Bradesmaen]

It's not Russia that's pushed Ukraine to the brink of war | Seumas Milne

Seumas Milne: The attempt to lever Kiev into the western camp by ousting an elected leader made conflict certain. It could be a threat to us all

www.theguardian.com

This article is not worth the time. This guy has been a putin apologist from day one and was even paid by Russia to attend a conference back in 2014.

This is bordering on conspiracy nutter stuff now Bojan, I honestly thought you were smarter than this. You say you do your own research and like to look at all the angles but your research is incredibly shallow and one dimensional. All this trash belongs on shitty sub reddits that a colleague of mine (big Putin fan) looks at.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

This article is not worth the time. This guy has been a putin apologist from day one and was even paid by Russia to attend a conference back in 2014.

This is bordering on conspiracy nutter stuff now Bojan, I honestly thought you were smarter than this. You say you do your own research and like to look at all the angles but your research is incredibly shallow and one dimensional. All this trash belongs on shitty sub reddits that a colleague of mine (big Putin fan) looks at.

It's fine if you don't like one article posted. Thank you for providing some background to the author. I note that I posted 4 other articles so I hope you aren't one of those people who will isolate one point and use it to bash any views you don't agree with.

I find most of the people involved in this episode abhorrent, including Putin.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Because the guy behind the article was good, but has lately turned into a nutter and there is evidence behind his nutterbutter approach of "unnamed sources".

The use of unnamed sources is not ideal and caution should be used. Upon further reading he seems to have used unnamed sources since his career started. This includes his works in Vietnam, Kissinger, the shooting down of a Korean 747 by the Soviet Union, and Israels acquisition of nuclear arms. I'm not saying that because he used unnamed sources early in his career that the one he used, if there was one, was being truthful but I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

 

[Bradesmaen]

It's fine if you don't like one article posted. Thank you for providing some background to the author. I note that I posted 4 other articles so I hope you aren't one of those people who will isolate one point and use it to bash any views you don't agree with.

I find most of the people involved in this episode abhorrent, including Putin.

What I read in those articles is that the US is involved in trying to make peace/stop Putin from doing more than he had done. I don't see anything wrong with that. I see you're against democracy now too.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

What I read in those articles is that the US is involved in trying to make peace/stop Putin from doing more than he had done. I don't see anything wrong with that. I see you're against democracy now too.

How am I against democracy?

When has the US ever been involved in trying to make peace? First time for everything I guess.

 

[Zidane98]

How am I against democracy?

When has the US ever been involved in trying to make peace? First time for everything I guess.

As opposed to Russia who since its inception in 1991 has attacked / invaded many of its neighbors?


You need to view the Ukranian conflict through the eyes of Ukranian people. They are what matters most - not Putin and his delusions of Ukraine being part of the greater Russian empire.

The Russians starved the Ukranians in Holomodor. In the 1800s Russians banned the use of Ukranian language and actively tried to quash it by Russiafying Ukranian areas. Historically Russia has always tried to kill of Ukranian nationality & identity and that continues to this very day with Putin's fascist invasion of a peaceful Ukraine whos only crime was that it no longer wanted to be a Russian puppet state.


I may also remind you that in the 1990s Ukraine inherited much sophisticated military tech and nuclear weapons from the dissolution of the USSR. Ukraine itself did not have much in the way of expertise operating this. The US encouraged them to turn over this to Russia in an agreement that seen Russia guarantee it respects Ukraine's independence, sovereignty and never to attack Ukraine again. This was the Budapest memorandum and it is (was) a perpetual agreement.

Fast forward to the 2000s and Russia are already actively meddling in Ukrainian affairs by meddling in elections. Poisoning leaders of opposition to pro Russian parties. Clear and obvious attempts to block Ukraine from developing cultural & political ties to Europe which is the direction the country has been heading since independence from the USSR in 1991. Naturally Ukraine looks to western integration to defend itself from clear Russian aggression.

The people of Ukraine finally had enough when Yanukovych effectively became a puppet for Putin (funny you didn't mention this as an issue) and went against all agreements the Rada had made in regards to signing an European association agreement at the behest of Putin. This was the last straw for the average Ukranian. Maidan involved milllions and millions of people. You might want to see how the pro Russian party of regions party fared in the 2014 presidential elections to see just what the average Ukranian citizen thinks of Russian stooges in parliament.

Which leads us to today where Putin, being the rampant fascist he is, simply does not accept Ukranian culture or national identity and is still insisting on destroying it. Hence here we are today. Putin thinks that Ukraine does not have a right to exist and does not believe in Ukranian national identity. That's why for him attacking and invading the place is not a difficult decision. The fact that his soldiers are torturing, raping and killing citizens of Ukraine en masse does not bother him as anyone in Ukraine who doesn't want to be a Russian puppet is the enemy to him anyway.

Obviously anyone can understand that Putin wants to maintain a relationship with neighboring countries for security reasons. He just needs to learn that it must be a bilateral relationship - not a one way relationship where he calls the shots.

 

[SM]

How am I against democracy?

When has the US ever been involved in trying to make peace? First time for everything I guess.

Other than WW1 and WW2 at a first glance I guess.

 

[Zidane98]

Bojan KantKick is this far from where you live. Pretty funny.

 

[Bojan KantKick]

Other than WW1 and WW2 at a first glance I guess.

LMAO. What are you talking about

 

[SM]

LMAO. What are you talking about

You're saying the US has never been involved in peacemaking, wtf are you on about?