The Small Forward Role...

[PerthBoy87]

G'day everyone,

Just two things which I want to discuss about. Last night Matthew Richardson (for those that watched the game on TV) said the small forward area needs to be looked at.

Not since Andrew Krakouer (2001-2007) and Robin Nahas (2009-2013) have we had a permanent small forward/crumbing forward.

We have had Jake King and/plus Shane Edwards as the small forward type players, but they just don't seem to have that natural crumbing ability that Nahas and especially Krak had.

Let's see what the stats tell us:

Jake King in his career has kicked 79 goals (from 107 games), but 2011 is when he made the move to the small forward role and since 2011 he has kicked 58 goals from 51 games.

Shane Edwards in his career has kicked 91 goals (from 139 games) but 2012 is when he made the move to the small forward role (whilst doing stints in the midfield) and since 2012 he has kicked 52 goals from 50 games.

Robin Nahas kicked 100 goals from 83 games with Richmond ( overall all in his career he has kicked 104 goals from 87 games)

Now on their day - both Edwards and King are handy in their own right but to me these two have been used as "fix up" jobs for the small forward area. Should Richmond have done more to draft a small forward either by getting a new player or a recycled player (providing that recycled player was good) or is there any need for Richmond to have a small forwards/crumbing forward.

It just seem to me that when the ball goes to ground in our forward 50, the players at ground level seem a bit lost, have no nous and just "don't have it" if you know what I mean around goals. I just think we are lacking some flair/talent up forward in terms of a small forward but do we need one?

Over to you Tiger fans, tell me what you think..


Cheers.

 

[Andy Sipowicz]

We sign McDonaugh as a small forward. He has beautiful foot skills, moves well (not lightening quick) and has good vision. In Dimma's infinite wisdom, he plays him in the backline, where his confidence will be crushed under the intensity that our midfield allows the ball to be pummelled into our defense.

Now, did someone like Paul Chapman start his career in the backline? Of course not. Building a youngsters defensive skills doesn't mean playing them out of position. Who remembers in round 1, when McDonaugh (playing in defense) wandered into the forward line and nailed a 30 metre pass on his left foot that Jack Riewoldt dropped? He held Matera to 1 goal and the next week he's dropped. In 2014, we played Jake King, Sam Lloyd and Nathan Gordon all in the forward line before McDonaugh. I can almost guarantee McDonaugh will be a better small forward then those three, yet our coach, doesn't even attempt to play a promising player we recruited as a small forward in the forward line.

To sum it up in another way, Shane Edwards off the back of his new deal, will most likely be a 150 or 200 game player for the Tigers. Granted, he's played some game time in the middle, but he's known mostly as a small forward. That's where we're at in terms of small forwards in the Damien Hardwick era.

 

[TerraTiger]

McDonough? I mean, why is he playing back? Get him an Lennon as high half fwd with Griffiths high and Jack deep. Do it Dimma

 

[marcus12]

G'day everyone,

Just two things which I want to discuss about. Last night Matthew Richardson (for those that watched the game on TV) said the small forward area needs to be looked at.

Not since Andrew Krakouer (2001-2007) and Robin Nahas (2009-2013) have we had a permanent small forward/crumbing forward.

We have had Jake King and/plus Shane Edwards as the small forward type players, but they just don't seem to have that natural crumbing ability that Nahas and especially Krak had.

Let's see what the stats tell us:

Jake King in his career has kicked 79 goals (from 107 games), but 2011 is when he made the move to the small forward role and since 2011 he has kicked 58 goals from 51 games.

Shane Edwards in his career has kicked 91 goals (from 139 games) but 2012 is when he made the move to the small forward role (whilst doing stints in the midfield) and since 2012 he has kicked 52 goals from 50 games.

Robin Nahas kicked 100 goals from 83 games (all in his career he has kicked 104 goals from 87 games)

Now on their day - both Edwards and King are handy in their own right but to me these two have been used as "fix up" jobs for the small forward area. Should Richmond have done more to draft a small forward either by getting a new player or a recycled player (providing that recycled player was good) or is there any need for Richmond to have a small forwards/crumbing forward.

It just seem to me that when the ball goes to ground in our forward 50, the players at ground level seem a bit lost, have no nous and just "don't have it" if you know what I mean around goals. I just think we are lacking some flair/talent up forward in terms of a small forward but do we need one?

Over to you Tiger fans, tell me what you think..


Cheers.

Dimma is obsessed the the "3 talls". But it doesnt work unless you have some good small forwards to actually stop the ball coming out when the 3 talls dont mark it. Thats what richmond lack. Jake king was great but hes old now, hes plays like one game then spends 3 weeks out, and we dont have anyone to full the void. Shane Edwards is pretty much good for like a goal a game, but for how many games hes played, hes pretty much useless. I think we should have gone for betts. I know alot of people would disagree but he would really add some danger to our forward line on the ground, but then again the money he was asking for was crazy.

All in all, if jack (because vickery and griff are really not goalkickers) doesnt mark the balls just spills out. Its a really worrying part of the list.

 

[tigerdan]

McDonough? I mean, why is he playing back? Get him an Lennon as high half fwd with Griffiths high and Jack deep. Do it Dimma

Because we have this idea that all smalls must earn their stripes in the back half for the first few years.

Personally I think forward pocket is the least important position on the ground with the way the game is played these days. Small forwards are a nice to have not need to have. But by all means with where we are at the moment then it's worth a shot!

We haven't had a genuine forward pocket since Chris Naish!

 

[marcus12]

We sign McDonaugh as a small forward. He has beautiful foot skills, moves well (not lightening quick) and has good vision. In Dimma's infinite wisdom, he plays him in the backline, where his confidence will be crushed under the intensity that our midfield allows the ball to be pummelled into our defense.

Now, did someone like Paul Chapman start his career in the backline? Of course not. Building a youngsters defensive skills doesn't mean playing them out of position. Who remembers in round 1, when McDonaugh (playing in defense) wandered into the forward line and nailed a 30 metre pass on his left foot that Jack Riewoldt dropped? He held Matera to 1 goal and the next week he's dropped. In 2014, we played Jake King, Sam Lloyd and Nathan Gordon all in the forward line before McDonaugh. I can almost guarantee McDonaugh will be a better small forward then those three, yet our coach, doesn't even attempt to play a promising player we recruited as a small forward in the forward line.

To sum it up in another way, Shane Edwards off the back of his new deal, will most likely be a 150 or 200 game player for the Tigers. Granted, he's played some game time in the middle, but he's known mostly as a small forward. That's where we're at in terms of small forwards in the Damien Hardwick era.

He would have never have gotten to 200 games at any other club. Hes ok, but doesnt really do anything special. Mcdonough could be a small forward but he uses the ball really well (better than cotchin is using it atm) so it seems a bit of a miss to put into the forward line

 

[PerthBoy87]

Dimma is obsessed the the "3 talls". But it doesnt work unless you have some good small forwards to actually stop the ball coming out when the 3 talls dont mark it. Thats what richmond lack. Jake king was great but hes old now, hes plays like one game then spends 3 weeks out, and we dont have anyone to full the void. Shane Edwards is pretty much good for like a goal a game, but for how many games hes played, hes pretty much useless. I think we should have gone for betts. I know alot of people would disagree but he would really add some danger to our forward line on the ground, but then again the money he was asking for was crazy.

All in all, if jack (because vickery and griff are really not goalkickers) doesnt mark the balls just spills out. Its a really worrying part of the list.

Would you guys have taken Krak on for another season or two for some experience and nous around goals? I know hindsight is a wonderful thing but just thought I'd ask the question. If you couldn't get Betts would Krak have been a second option?

 

[1980]

Isnt Aaaron Edwards the most mobile forward option we have? At least he knows how to lead

 

[PerthBoy87]

Isnt Aaaron Edwards the most mobile forward option we have? At least he knows how to lead

I was going to ask, is there a reason why he isn't getting a game in the seniors? How is he performing in the VFL? I mean the bloke is a better set show then Jack and can easily kick 2-3 goals per game which would be a good result for us but he isn't playing so there must be a reason and I'm not sure why, anyone know?

 

[TigerImposter]

Small forward wouldn't be high on our needs if our midfielders were dominating like last year
Also our forced entries into the fwd line have been poor which kills the concept of three talls
It's still a coaching issue with poor game plan which has ruptured our fwd line in 2014
IMO G.ablett would struggle to get a touch with our fwd line entries and set up
Not that I wouldn't mind seeing what it would look like with junior down there

 

[PerthBoy87]

Stats-wise it's interesting looking back at the small forwards we have had in the last 20-25 years, included are some players who played at other clubs and I have included their stats too but for the bulk of their careers - it was spent at Richmond. Also see a nice interview from a segment called "Where Are They Now" involving Chris Naish and you can see this link below the stats:



Chris Naish (Richmond, Port Adelaide):

Number of Games: 161 games (1990-1999)

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 228.162 = 58.31% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 1.41

Average Disposals Per Game: 14.72

Average Marks Per Game: 2.40

Average Tackles Per Game: 1.30


Nick Daffy (Richmond, Sydney):

Number of Games: 166 games (1992-2002)

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 182.165 = 52.44% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 1.09

Average Disposals Per Game: 17.30

Average Marks Per Game: 2.49

Average Tackles Per Game: 1.14


Mark Merinda (Richmond, West Coast):

Number of Games: 101 games (1994-2002)

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 88.94 = 48.35% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 0.87

Average Disposals Per Game: 11.31

Average Marks Per Game: 2,28

Average Tackles Per Game: 1.3


Andrew Krakouer (Richmond, Collingwood):

Number of Games: 137 games (2001-2007 and 2011-2013)

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 152.87 = 63.59% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 1.10

Average Disposals Per Game: 11.15

Average Marks Per Game: 2.67

Average Tackles Per Game: 3.01


Shane Edwards (Richmond):

Number of Games: 139 games (2007 - )

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 91.86 = 51.41% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 0.65

Average Disposals Per Game: 15.46

Average Marks Per Game: 2.75

Average Tackles Per Game: 2.76


Jake King (Richmond):

Number of Games: 107 games (2007 - )

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 79.46 = 63.20% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 0.73

Average Disposals Per Game: 13.95

Average Marks Per Game: 3.92

Average Tackles Per Game: 2.78


Robin Nahas (Richmond, North Melboune):

Number of Games: 88 games (2009 - )

Goals, Behinds and Accuracy: 104.68 = 60.46% accuracy

Average Goals Per Game: 1.18

Average Disposals Per Game: 14.60

Average Marks Per Game: 3.39

Average Tackles Per Game: 3.94







http://www.richmondfc.com.au/video/2013-05-06/where-are-they-now-chris-naish

 

[PerthBoy87]

Has there been any other players in this position in the last 20-25 years that I have missed? Let me know and I'll dig up their stats.

Cheers.

 

[Groupie_]

Sam Lloyd when he drops 10 kilo

 

[PerthBoy87]

Sam Lloyd when he drops 10 kilo

Might wait until he plays a few more games, then I'll dig his stats up.

 

[Ciderhound]

Devon Smith. Good goal smarts and has the tank to play in midfield.

 

[Spluff]

I was going to ask, is there a reason why he isn't getting a game in the seniors? How is he performing in the VFL? I mean the bloke is a better set show then Jack and can easily kick 2-3 goals per game which would be a good result for us but he isn't playing so there must be a reason and I'm not sure why, anyone know?

Got injured and then hasn't been in any sort of form in the reserves since coming back.

 

[tunksy]

weakest area of our list is the forward line. its really whats holding us back more than any other line. we lack a genuine 2nd quality tall who can kick a bag on his day and a quality small that always bobs up for a couple and does the defensive work too.

 

[TheProwler]

Game is moving away from the small crumbling fwd. this role now needs to be the resting mid. Occasionally a bloke will come along that is dead set built as a small fwd but you can't fill this spot with someone not solely suited for the role.

As for playing three talls it's an all eggs in one basket approach. When the ball comes in quick or to the tall fwds advantage then it works. When it's bombed in to a defensive press it's all over rover 95% of the time.

I wouldn't want us to recruit a light 180cm player for this sole role unless the kid has the smarts and is the best role he can play.

Nahas is a classic, can crumb but not much else. Lindsay Thomas and Milne are the two best I have seen play in the last five years. Sure blokes like Betts and Balantyne can hurt you but not every week and they can really only play the one role. It's blokes like Rioli, Motlop, Elliot, Mcglynn, Jetta etc that have the ability to play fwd and mid roles. They aren't pigeon holed as a small fwd which makes them an asset to the team.

Would much rather see Ellis, Conca, Cotchin, Martin, Edwards, Delidio etc all rotate through a two tall man fwd line and provide the skill around the pack and the ability to lead up as an option.

 

[PerthBoy87]

Game is moving away from the small crumbling fwd. this role now needs to be the resting mid. Occasionally a bloke will come along that is dead set built as a small fwd but you can't fill this spot with someone not solely suited for the role.

As for playing three talls it's an all eggs in one basket approach. When the ball comes in quick or to the tall fwds advantage then it works. When it's bombed in to a defensive press it's all over rover 95% of the time.

I wouldn't want us to recruit a light 180cm player for this sole role unless the kid has the smarts and is the best role he can play.

Nahas is a classic, can crumb but not much else. Lindsay Thomas and Milne are the two best I have seen play in the last five years. Sure blokes like Betts and Balantyne can hurt you but not every week and they can really only play the one role. It's blokes like Rioli, Motlop, Elliot, Mcglynn, Jetta etc that have the ability to play fwd and mid roles. They aren't pigeon holed as a small fwd which makes them an asset to the team.

Would much rather see Ellis, Conca, Cotchin, Martin, Edwards, Delidio etc all rotate through a two tall man fwd line and provide the skill around the pack and the ability to lead up as an option.

But wouldn't it depend on the game style of the team? Wouldn't a crumber be useful if the game style of the team demanded it/suited it? I still think you need an instinctive crumbing forward which is an art form in itself. The guys you mention - Conca, Cotchin, Martin, Edwards, Delidio - they cant purely crumb the ball. This is why I reckon we should find a good crumbing forward who can kick 1-3 goals per game and then every now and then on their day kick 4-5 goals etc.

I know what you're saying and I agree to a certain extent.


Cheers.

 

[PerthBoy87]

I dunno maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but it just seems this year when the ball goes to ground the guys who are at ground level just seem lost, confused and don't know where to go in traffic. It's a bit like a traffic jam. Just my thoughts. Edwards is an ok crumber but doesn't crumb the ball as good as others crumbers that I have seen play for Richmond but again it's an art form and hard to teach, you have it or you dont.

 

[tigs2010]

weakest area of our list is the forward line. its really whats holding us back more than any other line. we lack a genuine 2nd quality tall who can kick a bag on his day and a quality small that always bobs up for a couple and does the defensive work too.

And our midfield. And our backline without Astbury.

 

[tigs2010]

I dunno maybe I'm seeing things wrong, but it just seems this year when the ball goes to ground the guys who are at ground level just seem lost, confused and don't know where to go in traffic. It's a bit like a traffic jam. Just my thoughts. Edwards is an ok crumber but doesn't crumb the ball as good as others crumbers that I have seen play for Richmond but again it's an art form and hard to teach, you have it or you dont.

We have always underrated small forwards under Dimma. Both from the sense of how good one would be at Jack's feet and how damaging the opposition ones can be. We haven't had a good crumber since your cousin to be honest.

 

[PerthBoy87]

We have always underrated small forwards under Dimma. Both from the sense of how good one would be at Jack's feet and how damaging the opposition ones can be. We haven't had a good crumber since your cousin to be honest.

You've had Nahas as well? He was good. He was a crumbing forward.

 

[tigs2010]

You've had Nahas as well? He was good. He was a crumbing forward.

He was average. Played one good year. Looked good because the rest have been shit.

 

[PerthBoy87]

He was average. Played one good year. Looked good because the rest have been shit.

Robin Nahas - Goals/behinds Per Year:

2009: 21.21 (19 games)

2010: 13.13 (14 games)

2011: 29.11 (22 games)

2012: 34.17 (22 games)

2013: 3.1 (6 games)

2014: 4.5 (Now with North Melbourne: 5 games so far - season still in progress)