Discussion "The top 12 Carlton players of all time" - reflecting the problem with our take on football history

[SJ]

The Carlton Football Club was formed in 1864. In the Challenge Cup era (1862-1876), it won the title on four occasions and finished runner-up thrice. In the VFA era (1877-1896), it won the premiership on two occasions and finished runner-up on five occasions. In the early VFL era (1897-1944), it won the premiership on six occasions (including a rare hat-trick in 1906-1908) and finished runner-up on six occasions.

So as a very brief summary of the first 81 seasons Carlton Football Club, it finished as a top-two team at the highest level on 26 occasions (32%). Sounds like a pretty handy team, with no doubt some great players.

However according to the Carlton Football Club as part of its 150 year celebrations, not one player who contributed to any of this success was in the top 12 players in its history, unveiled as:

Top five:

John Nicholls 328 games 307 goals 1957-74
Stephen Kernahan 251 games 738 goals 1986-97
Bruce Doull 356 games 22 goals 1969-86
Stephen Silvagni 312 games 202 goals 1985-01
Alex Jesaulenko 256 games 424 goals 1967-79

6. Craig Bradley 375 games 247 goals 1986-2002
7. Robert Walls 218 games 367 goals 1967-78
8. Wayne Johnston 209 games 283 goals 1979-90
9. Geoff Southby 268 games 31 goals 1971-84
10. Greg Williams 109 games 89 goals 1992-97
11. Ken Hands 211 games 188 goals 1945-57
12. Chris Judd 125 games 79 goals 2008-

Nine of these 12 played with Carlton in the 1970s or 1980s alone. Again and again we see a similar theme in regards to similar accolades such as the Australian Football Hall of Fame, the various VFL/AFL Teams of the Centuries, and so on. It seems like if you didn't make it onto television, you couldn't have been a great player. Yet the majority of Australian footballers over 156 years have not been captured on film.

Now I know that Carlton experienced two periods of great success throughout the late 1960s to the early 1980s. But unfortunately yet again there has been a vast overrepresentation from 'the halcyon days' with this list. Has Chris Judd really been a greater player for Carlton than George Coulthard, described as "the brightest star in the galaxy", "the grandest player of the day" and "doubtful if, for general excellence, his equal has ever been seen"? Was Stephen Kernahan really a greater player than Harry Vallence, an eight-time club leading goalkicker and most VFL/AFL goals per game of any Carlton player over 50+ games?

I'm not having a go at Carlton or their list here specifically, because it's just the latest in a long line of very similar products. I'm no historian. But it seems the people that compile these lists aren't either, instead almost solely selecting players from their living memories.

 

[Jim Dixon]

Compare that to the 'Port Adelaide's Greatest Team' that spanned the 1870 to 2000 period.

http://www.portadelaidefc.com.au/club/history/greatest-team

Port Adelaide had three distinct 'golden ages' in that period- 1910-1914, 1951-1965, and 1977-1996, but there is 5 players in the 'greatest' team outside of those periods including one 19th Century star when Port Adelaide were a much more modest part of South Australia's football landscape.

But it's very hard to assess the contribution of players when we have so little information from say, Carlton's hat-trick early in the 20th century. Now we have, if anything, too much information- we're drowning in a sea of statistics!

By the by, having seen Port Adelaide footage from the 1960's, I'd say we will soon lose our historical perspective of pre-1970 football in the next generation.

 

[royals1922]

Look no one these days can do a greatest players ever team because no one is alive from the era from when some teams won the premierships, the rules were different and even the structure of club, competition and social structure was radically different.

 

[SJ]

Look no one these days can do a greatest players ever team because no one is alive from the era from when some teams won the premierships, the rules were different and even the structure of club, competition and social structure was radically different.

But that's what historians do all the time. We have so many written accounts it is lunacy to say 'oh well no one was alive, it can't be done - so let's just say the best 12 were from the past 70 years'.

 

[royals1922]

But that's what historians do all the time. We have so many written accounts it is lunacy to say 'oh well no one was alive, it can't be done - so let's just say the best 12 were from the past 70 years'.

Or best 12 players in living memory because ultimately that's what these lists are.

An example - Collingwood won a slew of premierships early to mid last century with Jock McHale- How many players from that era would make team of the century.

 

[SJ]

Or best 12 players in living memory because ultimately that's what these lists are.

An example - Collingwood won a slew of premierships early to mid last century with Jock McHale- How many players from that era would make team of the century.

That is exactly my point.

 

[royals1922]

That is exactly my point.

I was being semantic. In fact most people would be hard pressed to go back 70 years.

 

[SJ]

I was being semantic. In fact most people would be hard pressed to go back 70 years.

Yes, that's why "most people" wouldn't have the authority to compose a list of the best players in 150 years.

 

[royals1922]

The difficulty doesn't necessarily come with fullforwards or blokes whose record is ascertainable for goals. Let's take Carlton.

Blokes like Horrie Clover, Vin Gardiner, Vallence were all leading goals scorers for Carlton pre world War 1 and played in some good sides. I would argue Vin Gardiner statistically was as good as Clover but probably less than Vallence.

You can't go to best and fairests though because only one b and f is recorded prior to 1934 and Vallence is not recorded as winning a Band F but Clover is .

They won no Brownlow medals prior to 1947 awarded to Carlton players and had only one coleman medlalists prior to 2006.

Even if you go to the Brownlow voting pre World War 2, there were few regular vote winners pre world war 2 ( Duncan being the exception).

If you look at who was Captain Ray Brew, Billy D1ck, Fred Elliott were captains for some years - so that must mean something.

Possibly you could go to pre world war 2 State of Origin but I'm not sure how far that would take you.

Then if you look apart from those goalscorers, how you judge half backs, half forwards.

And this is for a club with a relatively good historical base.

 

[SJ]

The difficulty doesn't necessarily come with fullforwards or blokes whose record is ascertainable for goals. Let's take Carlton.

Blokes like Horrie Clover, Vin Gardiner, Vallence were all leading goals scorers for Carlton pre world War 1 and played in some good sides. I would argue Vin Gardiner statistically was as good as Clover but probably less than Vallence.

You can't go to best and fairests though because only one b and f is recorded prior to 1934 and Vallence is not recorded as winning a Band F but Clover is .

They won no Brownlow medals prior to 1947 awarded to Carlton players and had only one coleman medlalists prior to 2006.

Even if you go to the Brownlow voting pre World War 2, there were few regular vote winners pre world war 2 ( Duncan being the exception).

If you look at who was Captain Ray Brew, Billy D1ck, Fred Elliott were captains for some years - so that must mean something.

Possibly you could go to pre world war 2 State of Origin but I'm not sure how far that would take you.

Then if you look apart from those goalscorers, how you judge half backs, half forwards.

And this is for a club with a relatively good historical base.

From the thousands of anecdotes and qualitative pieces written over the decades.

 

[royals1922]

Then you look at the games played for players for Carlton prior to WW2. Only 3 blokes from that era topped 200 games, Rod McGregor 236 (1905-1920), Frank Gill and Vallence

then daylight
then Bob Green, Crisp, Bruce and Gilby ( around 180 games)

then Paddy O'Brien (167)

then Jim Francis, Vin Gairdner, Anderson and Hammond between 154 to 162 games

Rod McGregor certainly should be in consideration for one of the best 12, given that he appears to have been one of the iron men of the VFL.

 

[The Blue Baggers]

soapy vallence is in carlton's greatest 10 players - 204 games 722 goals (second only to sticks) during the vfl's golden era of the 1930's

 

[SJ]

soapy vallence is in carlton's greatest 10 players - 204 games 722 goals (second only to sticks) during the vfl's golden era of the 1930's

Not according to your club, who reckon Carlton's top 12 have all played in the last 69 out of 150 years.

 

[Silvagnis]

Not according to your club, who reckon Carlton's top 12 have all played in the last 69 out of 150 years.

For a good reason. Only the Hawks can hold a candle to Carlton's recent record in a 15 season period.

Rohan Connoll

It gives you an idea why the 1970s and '80s are so fondly remembered at Visy Park. Six premierships and eight grand finals in a 15-season period between 1968-82,

Rohan Connolly

Our Team Of The Century named 17 recent players.

http://www.blueseum.org/tiki-index.php?page=Team+of+the+Century

1. Silvagni.
2. Southby.
3. Doull.
4. Nicholls.
5. Williams.
6. Bradley.
7. Kernahan.
8. Crane.
9. Johnston.
10. Ashman.
11. Nicholls.
12. Silvagni.
13. Gallagher.
14. Walls.
15. Fitzpatrick.
16. Hunter.
17. Keogh.

Plus Parkin as coach.

Controversial...

 

[The Blue Baggers]

Not according to your club, who reckon Carlton's top 12 have all played in the last 69 out of 150 years.

true but when you win 8 premierships / 12 grand finals in 28 seasons within most peoples living memory its hard to ignore

that's the problem (good) @ carlton we have had more champions than any other club ... unfortunately all but one or two were last century

 

[royals1922]

Can you give me one sensible reason why Rod McGregor did not make your top 12.

4 time premiership player
Games record holder for Carlton 50 years with 236 games
Played between 1905 -1920
Vice president of the club
Played in 25 finals for Carlton including finals every year he played except for his last year.

Only Vic Thorp ( 262 games between 1910 to 1925), Jock McHale ( the player- 261 games between 1903 to 1920) played more games than him from his era and Vic Belcher with 226 between 1907 to 1920 was the next best player.

This shows the stupidity of popularly elected top 12, 15 or 20 player teams......

 

[blues4flag]

Not sure how you argue against Sticks being above Harry Valance. Most goals in our history, led our goal kicking on 11 occasions and is the longest serving captain in AFL/VFL history, 2 time premiership captain. Incredible, given he didn't come to Carlton till 23.

Including his time at Glenelg, he kicked 1022 goals.

 

[SJ]

Can you give me one sensible reason why Rod McGregor did not make your top 12.

4 time premiership player
Games record holder for Carlton 50 years with 236 games
Played between 1905 -1920
Vice president of the club
Played in 25 finals for Carlton including finals every year he played except for his last year.

Only Vic Thorp ( 262 games between 1910 to 1925), Jock McHale ( the player- 261 games between 1903 to 1920) played more games than him from his era and Vic Belcher with 226 between 1907 to 1920 was the next best player.

This shows the stupidity of popularly elected top 12, 15 or 20 player teams......

According to Carlton, Chris Judd has been better.

 

[royals1922]

According to Carlton, Chris Judd has been better.

Indeed

 

[australianfootball]

Very good discussion of some of the problems with these types of lists. I'm a list person myself, it's good fun coming up with top 10's of this and that, but if it's going to be an 'official' list that carries weight it all gets back to who is on the committee that selects the list and what are the criteria they are working under.

In the Carlton case, in addition to the club historian, we have a group of four ex-players from the post war period who are naturally going to go with the players they know and love (in some cases their best mates!). For those selectors, you can forget Coulthard, Baker, McGregor, or Clover - they just aren't in the mindset. One would have hoped that de Bolfo spoke up on their behalf but if so it still would have been standing against the tide.

 

[Gibbsy]

Very good discussion of some of the problems with these types of lists. I'm a list person myself, it's good fun coming up with top 10's of this and that, but if it's going to be an 'official' list that carries weight it all gets back to who is on the committee that selects the list and what are the criteria they are working under.

In the Carlton case, in addition to the club historian, we have a group of four ex-players from the post war period who are naturally going to go with the players they know and love (in some cases their best mates!). For those selectors, you can forget Coulthard, Baker, McGregor, or Clover - they just aren't in the mindset. One would have hoped that de Bolfo spoke up on their behalf but if so it still would have been standing against the tide.

Yep. It really should just be respected historians who compile these lists. Of course ex-players are going to vote for their mates! There's a disappointing element of bias in this.

And the inclusion of Judd in the list when he has played but seven years at the club and hasn't even finished his career... remarkable.

 

[pazza]

When you compare this to Essendon's effort 12 years ago:

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/club/history/champions-of-essendon

It makes you wonder about the credibility of Carlton's effort.

1. Reynolds (1933-51)
2. Coleman (1949-54)
3. Hird (1992-2007)
4. Hutchison (1942-57)
5. Madden (1974-92)
------------------------------
6. Watson (1977-1991, 93-94)
7. Fraser (1958-68)
8. Clarke (1951-67)
9. Thurgood (1892-1904)
10. Fitzmaurice (1918-24)
11. Terry Daniher (1978-92
12. Wally Buttsworth (1939-49)

The Carlton historians haven't got much of a handle on history.

 

[SJ]

When you compare this to Essendon's effort 12 years ago:

http://www.essendonfc.com.au/club/history/champions-of-essendon

It makes you wonder about the credibility of Carlton's effort.

1. Reynolds (1933-51)
2. Coleman (1949-54)
3. Hird (1992-2007)
4. Hutchison (1942-57)
5. Madden (1974-92)
------------------------------
6. Watson (1977-1991, 93-94)
7. Fraser (1958-68)
8. Clarke (1951-67)
9. Thurgood (1892-1904)
10. Fitzmaurice (1918-24)
11. Terry Daniher (1978-92
12. Wally Buttsworth (1939-49)

The Carlton historians haven't got much of a handle on history.

No different to Carlton's team of the century, described by australianfootball.com as:
"Most senior clubs in Australia followed the trend, and selected their respective teams of the century. On the whole they were marginally better conceived, but the results were still mixed. They ranged from the sublime, the Geelong team, that was truly representative of every era, even the dark ages, to the ridiculous, the Carlton team, which in effect was the ‘team of the half century’. Perhaps the selectors couldn’t think of any pre-war footballers apart from ‘Soapy’ Vallence—after all, he’d been on the World of Sport panel for many years so they had the TV-era validation they needed."
http://australianfootball.com/artic...ustralianfootball.com/70#sthash.uA8ywkY5.dpuf

 

[royals1922]

No different to Carlton's team of the century, described by australianfootball.com as:
"Most senior clubs in Australia followed the trend, and selected their respective teams of the century. On the whole they were marginally better conceived, but the results were still mixed. They ranged from the sublime, the Geelong team, that was truly representative of every era, even the dark ages, to the ridiculous, the Carlton team, which in effect was the ‘team of the half century’. Perhaps the selectors couldn’t think of any pre-war footballers apart from ‘Soapy’ Vallence—after all, he’d been on the World of Sport panel for many years so they had the TV-era validation they needed."
http://australianfootball.com/articles/view/The+case+for+australianfootball.com/70#sthash.uA8ywkY5.dpuf

Well let's assume McGregor and Vallence, at the very least come in the 12th, who goes out.

 

[pazza]

Well let's assume McGregor and Vallence, at the very least come in the 12th, who goes out.

Judd and Williams, as they played at other league clubs.