The trouble with a big stack....

[lazy]

Was playing at Burswood this weekend - visiting for work.

Played the 5-5 NL table with a buy in of $200.

22 hours later I had $5000.

Anyways I end up head to head with a tight super player - loves to go all in when strong and his chip stack is similar to mine (we are the two big stacks)

He raises preflop $30. Because I have so much money and planning on going soon I call with suited 89.

Flop comes out Q89 (RAINBOW)

He bets $100. Now I put him on either AA, KK, or AQ. I had played him for awhile and I know that he wouldnt have raised and then bet the flop without anything less. If he had trips he would have slow played and he wouldnt have gone in with Q8 OR Q9.

Therefore I know I am ahead on the flop. The correct move here is to RR and take down the pot right? However, if I do I know that he will come over the top of me all in. Normally I would be happy with this scenario as I would win the hand 7 out of 10 times but because I have a big stack I am afraid he may suck me out with the final 2 cards. Sure 7 out of 10 times I am going to double up but I rarely have such a big stack to risk for those 3 out of 10 times.

So against my better judgement I call. Its a rag card. He bets $500. I still know I am ahead but just call. River is an Ace. I now believe I am beat.

He bets $150 and I call. He turns over AQ - a higher pair. I lose like $800 and then call it a day.

When I look back on this hand I know I played it badly but if I had played the usual way I would which would have been to RR I know he would have put us all in and then I would have lost my whole stack on the river anyway.

Any thoughts on this guys? What would you do?

 

[Borgsta]

I'd have called the flop and be tempted to go all in on the turn. Flopped straight there is scary though.

 

[robertg22]

Couple of things, don't play hands 'just because you're going soon' because invariably that ends badly. You don't want to try and create action for yourself like that, play each hand independantly, but you are deep enough to play 89 anyway, so that is ok.

I think calling the flop is perfectly fine, especially when you're this deep stacked. You have position, if you'd raised to say $300 and he makes it $1000 at that stage, you're probably going to have to give it away. Worrying about a flopped straight if you don't think J10 is ever in his preflop raising range isn't such a big deal, so you're only really worried about stacking off to QQ at that stage.

I would have just called the flop with the intention of raising it up on a non dangerous turn card, but that $500 bet on the turn is pretty insane, so would have thrown me off a bit, so again I think calling is ok. Going all in there is a bit fishy I think because some part of his range has to include QQ/99/88/pocket pair of whatever junk card your turn was.
His $150 river bet is a pretty transparent value bet but given that there is well over $1k in the pot you're obviously never ever laying that down when you're getting insane pot odds like you were..
Don't be tough on yourself, independantly I don't think you played this particularly incorrectly at all..

 

[lazy]

Couple of things, don't play hands 'just because you're going soon' because invariably that ends badly. You don't want to try and create action for yourself like that, play each hand independantly, but you are deep enough to play 89 anyway, so that is ok.

I think calling the flop is perfectly fine, especially when you're this deep stacked. You have position, if you'd raised to say $300 and he makes it $1000 at that stage, you're probably going to have to give it away. Worrying about a flopped straight if you don't think J10 is ever in his preflop raising range isn't such a big deal, so you're only really worried about stacking off to QQ at that stage.

I would have just called the flop with the intention of raising it up on a non dangerous turn card, but that $500 bet on the turn is pretty insane, so would have thrown me off a bit, so again I think calling is ok. Going all in there is a bit fishy I think because some part of his range has to include QQ/99/88/pocket pair of whatever junk card your turn was.
His $150 river bet is a pretty transparent value bet but given that there is well over $1k in the pot you're obviously never ever laying that down when you're getting insane pot odds like you were..
Don't be tough on yourself, independantly I don't think you played this particularly incorrectly at all..

Thanks. Your comments make me feel a little better about how to play that scenario. What I was trying to say was that if I was shorter stacked. Say I had a $1000 then to me it would have been an easy RR all in before the river came out. However because my stack was so big I wasnt willing to be so agressive.

I guess if I hadve got all in with him postflop (knowing that I was ahead) I would have a hard luck story of how I spent 22 hours building a $5000 stack only to lose most of it in one hand on the river when I had my money in when I was ahead.

 

[ashley12]

Thanks. Your comments make me feel a little better about how to play that scenario. What I was trying to say was that if I was shorter stacked. Say I had a $1000 then to me it would have been an easy RR all in before the river came out. However because my stack was so big I wasnt willing to be so agressive.

I guess if I hadve got all in with him postflop (knowing that I was ahead) I would have a hard luck story of how I spent 22 hours building a $5000 stack only to lose most of it in one hand on the river when I had my money in when I was ahead.

30 pre
100 flop
500 turn
150 river = ~780...

[ ] 780 most of 5000...

Put it this way, lets say you have 300 and decided to play 89 anyway because "your leaving" you probably move in on that flop, he is priced in to call and does so with AQ and stacks you anyway...

Id be happy with the 8x buy-in win more then anything else...

 

[red+black]

I'm assuming ratholing is not allowed at Burswood?

 

[ashley12]

I'm assuming ratholing is not allowed at Burswood?

No, not even for the likes of a pint of beer etc...

 

[lazy]

30 pre
100 flop
500 turn
150 river = ~780...

[ ] 780 most of 5000...

Put it this way, lets say you have 300 and decided to play 89 anyway because "your leaving" you probably move in on that flop, he is priced in to call and does so with AQ and stacks you anyway...

Id be happy with the 8x buy-in win more then anything else...

Yes thats true.

If that hand should win 7 out of 10 times (I checked with simulator) that doesnt necessarily mean you will be in front after the 10 times.

 

[robertg22]

Thanks. Your comments make me feel a little better about how to play that scenario. What I was trying to say was that if I was shorter stacked. Say I had a $1000 then to me it would have been an easy RR all in before the river came out. However because my stack was so big I wasnt willing to be so agressive.

I guess if I hadve got all in with him postflop (knowing that I was ahead) I would have a hard luck story of how I spent 22 hours building a $5000 stack only to lose most of it in one hand on the river when I had my money in when I was ahead.

Even if you were shorter stacked I wouldn't really advocate shoving that river anyway if you call the turn, especially when you said yourself that you put him on hands like AA, AQ etc. Calling is almost certainly the right play to make there, if shorter stacked though you would pretty much just shove the turn anyway because after such a big overbet on the turn calling is pretty much the same as shoving anyway and your hand's then almost face up...

 

[paxmaniac]

Do you have any bet size tells on this guy? Such large overbets are very weird, especially with such a strong hand on such a dry board.

 

[robertg22]

Do you have any bet size tells on this guy? Such large overbets are very weird, especially with such a strong hand on such a dry board.

Kind of makes sense to me, I am guessing whatever brick the turn was it brought a second suited card on the board, making there straight possibilities and a flush draw, he is just overbetting to protect his top pair top kicker. I think that's his likely thought process anyway, given that lazy has just flat called both preflop and postflop, his opponent could be suspecting that he was drawing to something. I think this makes the most sense and falls in line with his thin river value bet, maybe putting lazy on something like 67, KJ, JJ... (hard to figure out without having a bit more background info)

 

[paxmaniac]

Kind of makes sense to me, I am guessing whatever brick the turn was it brought a second suited card on the board, making there straight possibilities and a flush draw, he is just overbetting to protect his top pair top kicker. I think that's his likely thought process anyway, given that lazy has just flat called both preflop and postflop, his opponent could be suspecting that he was drawing to something. I think this makes the most sense and falls in line with his thin river value bet, maybe putting lazy on something like 67, KJ, JJ... (hard to figure out without having a bit more background info)

IMO it's an awful, awful way to play TPTK with a very deep stack, even if the turn did bring a backdoor flush possibility. It's basically guaranteeing that the only hands that call him are hands that beat him, while letting worse hands get away reasonably cheap.

 

[lazy]

Kind of makes sense to me, I am guessing whatever brick the turn was it brought a second suited card on the board, making there straight possibilities and a flush draw, he is just overbetting to protect his top pair top kicker. I think that's his likely thought process anyway, given that lazy has just flat called both preflop and postflop, his opponent could be suspecting that he was drawing to something. I think this makes the most sense and falls in line with his thin river value bet, maybe putting lazy on something like 67, KJ, JJ... (hard to figure out without having a bit more background info)

You are spot on... Funny thing was he says at the end that I put you on Q8 ie (thinks I have 2 pair and he has TPTK)

haha - I am thinking then why the hell did you bet $500 on the turn when you thought you were behind????

 

[robertg22]

IMO it's an awful, awful way to play TPTK with a very deep stack, even if the turn did bring a backdoor flush possibility. It's basically guaranteeing that the only hands that call him are hands that beat him, while letting worse hands get away reasonably cheap.

No doubt, I completely agree. I was just trying to make sense of the situation, knowing how some of these live cash players play sometimes... I'd probably check call the turn myself with AQ there and do the same on that river barring any craziness on the opponents behalf..

 

[robertg22]

You are spot on... Funny thing was he says at the end that I put you on Q8 ie (thinks I have 2 pair and he has TPTK)

haha - I am thinking then why the hell did you bet $500 on the turn when you thought you were behind????

pretty tight range of hands to put you on there... anyway, do you really think he would have shipped his full stack in if you had 3 bet on the flop? say you made it $400 after his $100 bet, is he really going to shove like $4k more in on the flop!??!
lol.... anyway this sounds like a pretty juicy game, if I ever get to Perth I will give it a crack

 

[lazy]

pretty tight range of hands to put you on there... anyway, do you really think he would have shipped his full stack in if you had 3 bet on the flop? say you made it $400 after his $100 bet, is he really going to shove like $4k more in on the flop!??!
lol.... anyway this sounds like a pretty juicy game, if I ever get to Perth I will give it a crack

I really believe he would have come over the top with TPTK. I had been playing him for hours.

I have played twice at Burswood now and walked away with big dollars with small buy in.

The 5-5 game is great. I dont think they have it anywhere else. In fact - I might start a thread to ask because its a great fast game.

The poker room is quite nice and is new. Before midday though there is only one table open (weekdays). Yes, I said 1.

 

[Borgsta]

I played 5-5 at Canberra 2 weeks ago.

 

[lazy]

I played 5-5 at Canberra 2 weeks ago.

Never played Poker there. Whats it like?

 

[lazy]

Sorry - played at Star city last night on the $200 table which I thought was $2-$5 table and it was actually a $5-$5.

I dont know Star City had it.

Looks like know need for me to travel to find 5-5

 

[Borgsta]

Never played Poker there. Whats it like?

quite but a lot of action on the table. I wrote about my experience in the casinos other than burswood and crown thread.

 

[red+black]

He turns over AQ - a higher two pair. I lose like $800 and then call it a day.

When I look back on this hand I know I played it badly but if I had played the usual way I would which would have been to RR I know he would have put us all in and then I would have lost my whole stack on the river anyway.

Any thoughts on this guys? What would you do?

FYP btw. I think the hand was played badly by both players but for different reasons. I think you would have played differently if one of you was not deep and I'm sure you're right in saying he would have fell in love with TPTK if you showed some aggression (as pax said). I doubt anyone is stupid enough however to shove for ~1000 BBs given the flop is so connected. I think you should raise the flop because many turn cards are bad for you, but I see no problem with going with robertg's suggestion.

But why hadn't you cashed in earlier? What were you waiting for? A double up? Cash in, secure the profit. With Crown being the largest room in the country, I guess it's easier to cash in here, take a break, change tables and buy back in for 200 (different table though). If you are up big yet are concernd about how deep you are, then that tells me that you should have either cashed in already.

And what's with the 2x pot bet on the turn then 1/10 pot bet on the river. FMD What kind of ****ing game is that at Burswod?

 

[lazy]

Answers below

fyp btw. I think the hand was played badly by both players but for different reasons.

agree

i think you would have played differently if one of you was not deep

yes that was point re: The thread about the problem of the big stack - it can make you play differently

and i'm sure you're right in saying he would have fell in love with tptk if you showed some aggression (as pax said). I doubt anyone is stupid enough however to shove for ~1000 bbs given the flop is so connected.

i am sure he would have rr my rr. He was not a good player. Super aggressive with anything

i think you should raise the flop because many turn cards are bad for you, but i see no problem with going with robertg's suggestion. yes, which is what i said i should have done but by doing so i would have had to be willing to probably call a huge push back

but why hadn't you cashed in earlier? What were you waiting for? A double up? i was on a huge roll. Had gone from $200 to $5000. I wanted to see how far i could go. I could have cashed in at $1000, $2000, $3000 and so on. As it is if i hadve done that i would have missed out. I cashed out with $4000.

cash in, secure the profit. With crown being the largest room in the country, i guess it's easier to cash in here, take a break, change tables and buy back in for 200 (different table though). i had been going 22 hours and at 10am in the morning it was the only table open

if you are up big yet are concernd about how deep you are, then that tells me that you should have either cashed in already. when you are deep going against say under $1000 stacks then no worries. When you are deep going against similar stack size and you know he is super agressive you have to be careful. If i hadve played that hand like a small stack and tried to kill it on the flop as i said he would have rr me possibly all in and if called even though ahead would have lost it all on the river

and what's with the 2x pot bet on the turn then 1/10 pot bet on the river. Fmd What kind of ****ing game is that at burswod?

 

[mdc]

1000BBs stacks...nice.

As for the hand, you played it fine. Re-raising flop this deep is hilariously bad, ditto for turn, and obviously you can't fold river.

I would re-raise preflop here a lot as your hand plays well deep and it's great for "mixing it up" purposes, but calling is ok too given description of your opponent.

 

[red+black]

1000BBs stacks...nice.

As for the hand, you played it fine. Re-raising flop this deep is hilariously bad, ditto for turn, and obviously you can't fold river.

I would re-raise preflop here a lot as your hand plays well deep and it's great for "mixing it up" purposes, but calling is ok too given description of your opponent.

Now I might be unfamiliar with 5/5 games with a 200 buy-in and two players getting 25+ buy-ins or 1000 BBs deep, but you'll have to explain how raising the flop or turn isn't marginal, isn't wrong, isn't bad, but is actually "hilariously bad" as you put it.

Now given this idiot villain's propensity to make bets irrespective of pot size, what do you suggest when he bets 800-1000 on the river? Fold because that was our intention the whole way by flatting every street with bottom two pair on the flop? At what point do we define his range or his affinity to his hand? Is our intention to call the whole way down no matter what cards come?

 

[paxmaniac]

As for the hand, you played it fine. Re-raising flop this deep is hilariously bad, ditto for turn, and obviously you can't fold river.

I'm with R+B. If you weren't actually playing scared, and prepared to lose $5k from a favourable position then a flop or turn raise is certainly correct if your read on the player is correct (i.e he is willing to go bust with TPTK or overpair).