Conspiracy Theory There actually are people (State and non-State actors) who ARE brainwashing you, and most of you don't actually know it's happening.

[Malifice]

Winstanley's Diggers practised socialism and they were about as close to a proper anarchist community as anything the UK has seen since 1066 at least.

You can literally do the same thing yourself right now. Go move into a commune, with like-minded people, have communal property and have fun.

Just dont sit there and say the Government should enforce that s**t on anyone else.

I'm saying these things are socialism

I know you are, and I'm telling you you're wrong. A 'thing' cannot be socialism other than socialism.

There is no rule about using the term socialism that says everything has to be owned and controlled by the state.

Yes there is because that's the literal definition of the term. I mean you can replace 'State' with 'Group of people' or 'Community' or 'Tribe' or 'Commune' or 'Collective' or whatever other term you want, but socialism is communal ownership and control of property and labor, the means of producing property via labor, the means of transfer of property between individuals, and how one deals with property and labor.

You started this whole thing off, by literally arguing that private ownership of property, and conducting trade for profit was 'wrong' and that socialism is better.

Two questions for you:

1) Explain to me how you plan on getting your Socialist utopia up off the ground (and remove private property in exchange for collective ownership), and remove people's ability to exercise/ employ others for their labor where and how they want to for profit etc, without the State enforcing it?

Answer 1 cannot involve the State or Government or similar body enforcing any socialist laws, rules or regulations on the unwilling.

2) Explain to me - even if you can somehow answer Q1 above - how this system works without State control. Like, what if I (and thousands of others) wanted to incorporate, pool our money and create a company for profit, profiting off the labor of others, purchasing private property and renting them out to others for profit etc. What is there to stop us?

Again answer 2 without the involvement of the State or any similar body enforcing rules or regulations on the unwilling.

 

[ferball]

Nordic Countries Aren’t Actually Socialist



Scandinavian 'Socialism': The Truth of the Nordic Model



The Myth of Scandinavian Socialism



Don’t Call Scandinavian Countries ‘Socialist’ | Lawrence W. Reed



Sorry Bernie Bros But Nordic Countries Are Not Socialist

Norway is not socialist ferball. Stop claiming it is.

You've just quoted a bunch of conservative liberatrian propagandists. They're all full of s**t.

The Heritage Institute - founded by the same guys who turned "socialism" with a picture of Obama into code for "black". The same people that sponsored Scott walker in Wisconsin so he could guy workers rights and wages. Lawrence reed. Forbes magazine... JFC

Why would anyone listen to anything any of these people have to say? This is brainwashing and you're making my point for me again.

If I posted anything from RT that illustrates the role of US intel in doing what you reckon only the Russians are doing (ie funding Google, bein associated with the funding of Facebook, the revolving door from CIA to those companies) you'd have a pink fit about it in this thread but here you are doing exactly the same thing from the other side.

 

[ferball]

Also the community as a whole means the community as a whole, not individual elements of it which is what private property is.

It doesn't mean the community owns the whole thing...

Furthermore private property and capitalism are not the same thing. In indigenous australian societies a significant element of private property was IP - the right to control the songs and stories connected with places, animals, plants and other resources etc etc. That IP belonged to individuals responsible for those things it was theirs and no one elses. people couldn't use their songs without their permission but this did not take place in a growth oriented market economy.

 

[ferball]

One more thing that i didn't mention earlier but when I went back to check on what i'd said i decided it was worth following up.

You said this:

There was no conspiracy involved with COVID, vaccines or anything of that nature.

However the British medical Journal did expose a conspiracy to provide fraudulent test results in the Pfizer trials and cover that fraud up.

You can read about it here:

Covid-19: Researcher blows the whistle on data integrity issues in Pfizer’s vaccine trial

Revelations of poor practices at a contract research company helping to carry out Pfizer’s pivotal covid-19 vaccine trial raise questions about data integrity and regulatory oversight. Paul D Thacker reports In autumn 2020 Pfizer’s chairman and chief executive, Albert Bourla, released an open...

www.bmj.com

 

[ferball]

Anyway this socialism thing has reached an impasse. There is nothing you have that can change my mind and it seems pretty clear you feel the same way so at this point so lets move on.

This is an interview about the change in conspiracy culture that coincides with the topic of this thread. One of the people interviewed is a Texas Alt. Radio host i've know for a decade and a half online - Smiley Lewis.

Its worth reading given the content:

Opinion | Even Conspiracy Theorists Are Alarmed by What They’ve Seen

How QAnon and Jan. 6 ripped the conspiracy theory world apart.

www.nytimes.com

 

[Malifice]

Anyway this socialism thing has reached an impasse.

Yeah, because you literally refuse to answer questions on the topic, demanding the State of Norway is Socialist even though literally no scholar in the world agrees with you (including the Norwegians), ignoring the fact they're actually Social Liberal (Liberal Democratic) and have a fully functioning free market and private property ownership, and everyone in Norway works a job, for profit.

Also, in the same breath you claimed Socialism (a political theory of organization) doesnt require an organized political body (Tribe, Nation-State, Committee, Collective etc) to function, which is of course impossible.

Its like saying you can have Nazism or Liberalism or Fundamentalism without an organized political body. You cant.

 

[ferball]

You started this whole thing off, by literally arguing that private ownership of property, and conducting trade for profit was 'wrong' and that socialism is better.

No I said you were brainwashed into thinking the only form of socialism is an authoritarian state ala China or North Korea and you've just spent the last however many pages proving that right.

Even tho you agree with my point

You can literally do the same thing yourself right now. Go move into a commune, with like-minded people, have communal property and have fun.

Just dont sit there and say the Government should enforce that s**t on anyone else.

See? ... a commune is a socialist structure that isn't a state and isn't necessarily authoritarian either. Likewise a co-op. People choose to engage with it and choose to use it to mediate their interactions with certain markets.


You also said that socialism and social liberalism are incompatible with each other but the only reason social liberalism exists is because classical liberalism couldn't meet the challenge of 18th century European society and it needed to adopt socialist ideas to mitigate the worst elements of the extreme individualism that classical liberalism promoted.

I don't think you really understand what you're talking about.

But this is not the point I'm trying to make.

The point I'm trying to make is that the IRA and old dead mates troll farms are no different to western propaganda online or the years of particular influence on Western thought the sort of conservative libertarian money freaks you quoted on the last page have.

When you posted all those articles about Norway every single one was from a pro business, small government/conservative libertarian source.

They're not citing facts, they're pushing an agenda.

Its not even a liberal agenda either most of the time, its a downright aristocratic one.

Its not representitive of the Western political landscape at all, tho it tries to present itself that way. Its just one particularly self interested corner of it.

None of the people writing those articles actually approve of the way Norway or even the other more capitalist Scandinavian countries conduct their affairs either. Look them up. Do your own research - read their stuff and get your head around the ideas they espouse most of the time.

These are the very people that call the stuff I talk about socialism then try to push the argument that socialism can only exist under an authoritarian anti democratic government. That's an abusive double bind by the way - its a form of gaslighting.

I'm talking about the sort of medical and educational systems that exist in democracies outside the US. In countries that have no problem seizing peoples private property and re-distributing it to create access to medical care and education and for a variety of other "public good" causes.

Every single one of the sources you quoted is fundamentally opposed to that seizing of private property.

IE They hate the idea of taxes generating public money thats used for some common good.

They also loathe the idea of some collective controlling one of the most important means of production and then using that control to force people to apply minimum standards for wages and conditions when employing workers.

They don't need to manipulate an algorithm to control your access to opinion and emotional rhetoric because they've dominated the media landscape since the 70s in English speaking nations. And in that time we've lost public assets as well as rights and conditions. All the while, instead of trickling down wealth has flowed upwards at an incresing rate.

 

[Malifice]

No I said you were brainwashed into thinking the only form of socialism is an authoritarian state ala China or North Korea and you've just spent the last however many pages proving that right.

No, I think that Socialism (a political theory that advocates for State control/ ownership of the means of production) invariably creates a tyranny.

When the State control everything, they control everything. They have to enforce that control or ownership via lawmaking and force.

See? ... a commune is a socialist structure that isn't a state and isn't necessarily authoritarian either. Likewise a co-op.

And you can go live in such a co-op (where you have mutual ownership of your property, and you all contribute to the co-op for the exact same return, likely with some kind of enforcement process such as expulsion or similar lawmaking attached for troublemakers) all you want, but I don't consent to such a structure being enforced on me against my will, by the State.

See the beauty of liberalism? You do you, and I'll do me. In a Socialist State, we dont get that choice.

You also said that socialism and social liberalism are incompatible with each other

They are incompatible (although social liberalism has some social ownership of the means of production, and some regulation of it). Social liberals are prepared to take a more flexible and open view on the concept of 'liberty' seeing things like Public Health and the Welfare State as creating a common good and protecting individuals from harm (positive liberty vs negative liberty).

But there is a limit. The market remains free (and capitalist) and 'Socialism' is not enforced (in Social Liberal States, you're free to work where you want, for a wage you and your employer set, for profit, and own whatever damn property you want, privately).

You live in one of those Social Liberal States at the moment by the way.

The point I'm trying to make is that the IRA and old dead mates troll farms are no different to western propaganda online or the years of particular influence on Western thought the sort of conservative libertarian money freaks you quoted on the last page have.

They're wildly different to Western Propaganda.

Western Nations have open internets, and metadata is collected by private companies (Meta, Google, Apple etc). China and Russia have closed internets, national firewalls blocking s**t, and their own domestic versions of Facebook which are literally apparatus of the State, used by the State to monitor and control their own population by cooking them.

The CIA cant do to Russia (or China) or even the USA (because they dont own the metadata, Zuckerberg and Google and Apple do), what the KGB/ IRA can do to the USA or to their own people inside Russia.

So there is that massive difference for starters. Our open internet allows for them to spam all sorts of s**t against vulnerable western cookers, convincing people that COVID is a hoax, vaccines don't work, Qanon is real, Putin and Russia are fighting Nazis/ Biolabs/ are the good guys, 'Hunter Bidens laptop', and basically literally everything that BlueE GG.exe and similar cookers think is true.

Even if the CIA wanted to wage a counter disinformation campaign, it's going to find it harder to do because they don't have access to Russian (or Chinese) social media to the same extent thanks to firewalls and State ownership (and it can be shut down by those States pretty easily).

Putting that to one side, do you have ANY evidence of a CIA disinformation operation of the same level (or even approaching the same level) as the Russian campaign to influence the 2016 elections in favor of Trump?

Present me the evidence please. I want reliable sources.

 

[rank and file]

No, I think that Socialism (a political theory that advocates for State control/ ownership of the means of production) invariably creates a tyranny.

When the State control everything, they control everything. They have to enforce that control or ownership via lawmaking and force.

And you can go live in such a co-op (where you have mutual ownership of your property, and you all contribute to the co-op for the exact same return, likely with some kind of enforcement process such as expulsion or similar lawmaking attached for troublemakers) all you want, but I don't consent to such a structure being enforced on me against my will, by the State.

See the beauty of liberalism? You do you, and I'll do me. In a Socialist State, we dont get that choice.



They are incompatible (although social liberalism has some social ownership of the means of production, and some regulation of it). Social liberals are prepared to take a more flexible and open view on the concept of 'liberty' seeing things like Public Health and the Welfare State as creating a common good and protecting individuals from harm (positive liberty vs negative liberty).

But there is a limit. The market remains free (and capitalist) and 'Socialism' is not enforced (in Social Liberal States, you're free to work where you want, for a wage you and your employer set, for profit, and own whatever damn property you want, privately).

You live in one of those Social Liberal States at the moment by the way.


They're wildly different to Western Propaganda.

Western Nations have open internets, and metadata is collected by private companies (Meta, Google, Apple etc). China and Russia have closed internets, national firewalls blocking s**t, and their own domestic versions of Facebook which are literally apparatus of the State, used by the State to monitor and control their own population by cooking them.

The CIA cant do to Russia (or China) or even the USA (because they dont own the metadata, Zuckerberg and Google and Apple do), what the KGB/ IRA can do to the USA or to their own people inside Russia.

So there is that massive difference for starters. Our open internet allows for them to spam all sorts of s**t against vulnerable western cookers, convincing people that COVID is a hoax, vaccines don't work, Qanon is real, Putin and Russia are fighting Nazis/ Biolabs/ are the good guys, 'Hunter Bidens laptop', and basically literally everything that BlueE GG.exe and similar cookers think is true.

Even if the CIA wanted to wage a counter disinformation campaign, it's going to find it harder to do because they don't have access to Russian (or Chinese) social media to the same extent thanks to firewalls and State ownership (and it can be shut down by those States pretty easily).

Putting that to one side, do you have ANY evidence of a CIA disinformation operation of the same level (or even approaching the same level) as the Russian campaign to influence the 2016 elections in favor of Trump?

Present me the evidence please. I want reliable sources.

Just on the last paragraph,it would be harder to find an election that the CIA didn't interfere with.

The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries

 

[Malifice]

Just on the last paragraph,it would be harder to find an election that the CIA didn't interfere with.
View attachment 1793602
The U.S. is no stranger to interfering in the elections of other countries

Oh I agree the USA has clearly (and repeatedly) overthrown regimes in several States. Primarily in Latin America and the Middle East, and to a lesser extent Eastern Europe and Asia.

My point is, where is the disinfo campaign and use of social media to cook people? Where is the brainwashing?

As far as I can see, when the Seppos go in for regime change, it's almost always with bombs and spies and playing sides off against each other via throwing support in for rivals.

Not the use of extensive disnformation and metadata to cook people (which is what this thread is about).

 

[rank and file]

Oh I agree the USA has clearly (and repeatedly) overthrown regimes in several States. Primarily in Latin America and the Middle East, and to a lesser extent Eastern Europe and Asia.

My point is, where is the disinfo campaign and use of social media to cook people? Where is the brainwashing?

As far as I can see, when the Seppos go in for regime change, it's almost always with bombs and spies and playing sides off against each other via throwing support in for rivals.

Not the use of extensive disnformation and metadata to cook people (which is what this thread is about).

Like most things,the US does it bigger and better than Russia.
See USAGM compared to the IRA.

Global reach and big budget,would be shocked if they hadn't put out disinformation and harvested
meta data.
Don't think they're spending it on bombs and spies.

 

[Malifice]

Like most things,the US does it bigger and better than Russia.
See USAGM compared to the IRA.

For the third time now, where is the disinfo campaign and use of social media to cook people? Where is the brainwashing?

Provide evidence of it.

 

[rank and file]

For the third time now, where is the disinfo campaign and use of social media to cook people? Where is the brainwashing?

Provide evidence of it.

For the last time now,as it sounds like someone is getting angry because they're not hearing the right echo in their chamber.
OP is fine but you make out as if you're the first person to work this out.
You're cooked and brainwashed by the Russian algorithm is so stale,but that's all you've got.

 

[Malifice]

For the last time now,as it sounds like someone is getting angry because they're not hearing the right echo in their chamber.
OP is fine but you make out as if you're the first person to work this out.
You're cooked and brainwashed by the Russian algorithm is so stale,but that's all you've got.

For the fourth time now, where is the disinfo campaign and use of social media to cook people? Where is the brainwashing?

 

[ferball]

I'm gonna leave the socialism thing for a while because I'm more interested in this topic but before we go any further ...

Mal what is your definition of brainwashing?

 

[Malifice]

Mal what is your definition of brainwashing?

''A systematic effort to persuade nonbelievers to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine.''

Brainwashing | Cults, Indoctrination, Manipulation

 

[ferball]

''A systematic effort to persuade nonbelievers to accept a certain allegiance, command, or doctrine.''

Brainwashing | Cults, Indoctrination, Manipulation

So its not that different to socialisation is it?

 

[ferball]

What do people think of this comment?

The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.

 

[Kurve]

It's getting harder to pick the fakes and it's creepy as.

 

[Present Not Past]

The internet is a cesspit of disinformation and advertising.
It irritates me just to access it.
But there is a treasure trove there for everyone to access, but they don't.
That's my rant.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

The internet is a cesspit of disinformation and advertising.
It irritates me just to access it.
But there is a treasure trove there for everyone to access, but they don't.
That's my rant.

Nevertheless we are being guided/channeled into a certain mindset. You only have to Google a controversial topic and the first page or two of links all point to the right ie “correct” narrative. The alternative opinion is not presented as an alternative but as “wrong” or “debunked”.

This “misinformation/disinformation” narrative is designed to eliminate controversy and brand anything other than the official line as not only wrong, but evil and criminal. Remember Jacinda Ardern stating that the only source of truth was the government? China and North Korea have this down to a fine art.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

A shocking endorsement of this subject. I've been saying for a long time that smart phones and the internet are dangerous for children and teens, because they are impossible to supervise. The rise in youth crime is directly related to social media, which enables, encourages and rewards risky illegal behaviour. Not to mention the force feeding of critical theories of race, gender and other types of activism as desirable and normal.

BIG TECH AND THE SHOCK TO CHILDHOOD

https://todayspaper.theaustralian.com.au/infinity/article_popover_share.aspx?guid=c0e7b8f1-61ed-405c-9adf-95e2d8f61ed2&share=true

 

[owen87]

A shocking endorsement of this subject. I've been saying for a long time that smart phones and the internet are dangerous for children and teens, because they are impossible to supervise. The rise in youth crime is directly related to social media, which enables, encourages and rewards risky illegal behaviour. Not to mention the force feeding of critical theories of race, gender and other types of activism as desirable and normal.

BIG TECH AND THE SHOCK TO CHILDHOOD

https://todayspaper.theaustralian.com.au/infinity/article_popover_share.aspx?guid=c0e7b8f1-61ed-405c-9adf-95e2d8f61ed2&share=true

You're conflating a lot of different things here.

 

[rank and file]

A shocking endorsement of this subject. I've been saying for a long time that smart phones and the internet are dangerous for children and teens, because they are impossible to supervise. The rise in youth crime is directly related to social media, which enables, encourages and rewards risky illegal behaviour. Not to mention the force feeding of critical theories of race, gender and other types of activism as desirable and normal.

BIG TECH AND THE SHOCK TO CHILDHOOD

https://todayspaper.theaustralian.com.au/infinity/article_popover_share.aspx?guid=c0e7b8f1-61ed-405c-9adf-95e2d8f61ed2&share=true

Balls deep in dopamine culture

 

[Bostonian]

Huxley was right.