Tippett's Gone - READ RULES BEFORE POSTING

[Wood_Duck]

I don't think Crows supporters are claiming that their club is squeaky clean and they know that a price will be paid, but you can't blame them for being upset that the reigning premiers have the ability to out bid all other clubs for a players services.

That just shouldn't be possible and the fact that it is just shows that the extra cap space you are gifted is an unfair advantage

The entire competition should be upset about it.

 

[Donkey Magoo]

Before this saga blew up, I was hoping we were not going to retain him on the rumoured $800k a year.

IMO that is biggest (perhaps only) win in this entire thing. We aint paying him.

I think the fact that we get his salary off of the books is a massive get for us.
I also think his usefullnes was nearing an end, and I would be surprised to see another concussion quickly, he plays his best when he hits the pack.
Lets grab our money and buy someone big!

 

[Donkey Magoo]

I find it truly mind blowing the arrogance of the Syndey supporters. You are now using the argument that he IS worth a first round pick and a top line player to justify your club paying exceptional overs for him.

Incredibly only a month ago he was only worth pick 23 + Jesse White because thats what the market decided but now suddenly its not trade week his value has miraculously shot back up. Get a grip you morons dont come on our board and dribble that crap.

FWIW his salary is worth what someone is willing to pay. Your offer ( if true ) will be seen as overs by the majority of footy people and you know that.

I agree, but most of the Sydney Flogs were arguing that should bend us over a barrel because they could, because Sydney is where he wanted to go. I am so glad that we didnt cave!

 

[Donkey Magoo]

Given how dodgy the tippets are I'm guessing that 2 year option with 20 game min. was set up to pad a nice damages claim if he is suspended for a few games next year

It's probably a concussion cushion!

 

[Emperoar]

I suppose the extra cost of living 900k is going to Tippett every year. By moving to Sydney he's making it a better place to be LOL CULTURE.

Still interested to know on whether the AFL make a move on the extra funds, because if they do then Sydney's gonna bleed long term.

 

[Super sub]

Given how dodgy the tippets are I'm guessing that 2 year option with 20 game min. was set up to pad a nice damages claim if he is suspended for a few games next year

That is the part that could be manipulated.

Sydney play him for 19 games year 1 (if he is not susspended for more) and then the $1m per year for years 5 & 6 is not in play. That could be something that they agreed on to put GWS off.

 

[MarkP]

I don't think Crows supporters are claiming that their club is squeaky clean and they know that a price will be paid, but you can't blame them for being upset that the reigning premiers have the ability to out bid all other clubs for a players services.

That just shouldn't be possible and the fact that it is just shows that the extra cap space you are gifted is an unfair advantage

No. I don't think the Crows supporters all think they are clean. I think a very vocal majority on this board are acting in the way I have called them out on though.

And yes I do understand your point about the reigning premiers being able to outbid others on a player. The glib reply is you are blaming us for having good management and impeccable recruiting skills. Well guilty as charged I guess.

In seriousness here is the GF list as put up on our board in this thread. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/what-were-made-of.981131/#post-26455517

Sorry for the format - it came as is.


Adam Goodes - #43 ND
Alex Johnson - #57 ND
Craig Bird - #59 ND
Dan Hannebery - #30 ND
Heath Grundy - #42 Rookie
Jarrad McVeigh - #5 ND
Josh Kennedy - #40 ND (Obtained with McGlynn using picks 39, 46 and 70)
Jude Bolton - #8 ND
Kieren Jack - #57 Rookie
Lewis Jetta - #14 ND
Lewis Roberts-Thomson - #29 ND
Luke Parker - #40 ND
Martin Mattner - #51 Rookie (Obtained using pick 28)
Mike Pyke - #101 ND
Mitch Morton - #44 (Obtained using pick 79)
Nick Malceski - #64 ND
Nick Smith - #15 Rookie
Rhyce Shaw - #18 ND (Obtained along with pick 61 using pick 46)
Ryan O'Keefe - #56 ND
Sam Reid - #38 ND
Shane Mumford - #57 Rookie (Obtained using pick 28)
Ted Richards - #27 ND (Obtained along with pick 55 using picks 19 and 51)

Not so impressive on paper is it? Or rather it is impressive what has been gleaned from those picks.

You go on to categorically say our success is from the COL cap space we get. Look at the above. Perhaps it is recognising talent, moneyballing it, having "culcha", having exceptional coaches and a few true champions.

Juxtapose Carlton vs our list.

You make it sound as though we wandered out and paid huge money for our list a la Tippett. Nothing could be further from the truth. We grew it. And coached it. And cultured it.

Any wonder we have space left in the cap to marquee a player that fills a gap.

Our unfair advantage comes from a good back office in my opinion. A fact that has been long recognised.

I appreciate your comments though.

 

[Geoffa32]

No. I don't think the Crows supporters all think they are clean. I think a very vocal majority on this board are acting in the way I have called them out on though.

And yes I do understand your point about the reigning premiers being able to outbid others on a player. The glib reply is you are blaming us for having good management and impeccable recruiting skills. Well guilty as charged I guess.

In seriousness here is the GF list as put up on our board in this thread. http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/what-were-made-of.981131/#post-26455517

Sorry for the format - it came as is.


Adam Goodes - #43 ND
Alex Johnson - #57 ND
Craig Bird - #59 ND
Dan Hannebery - #30 ND
Heath Grundy - #42 Rookie
Jarrad McVeigh - #5 ND
Josh Kennedy - #40 ND (Obtained with McGlynn using picks 39, 46 and 70)
Jude Bolton - #8 ND
Kieren Jack - #57 Rookie
Lewis Jetta - #14 ND
Lewis Roberts-Thomson - #29 ND
Luke Parker - #40 ND
Martin Mattner - #51 Rookie (Obtained using pick 28)
Mike Pyke - #101 ND
Mitch Morton - #44 (Obtained using pick 79)
Nick Malceski - #64 ND
Nick Smith - #15 Rookie
Rhyce Shaw - #18 ND (Obtained along with pick 61 using pick 46)
Ryan O'Keefe - #56 ND
Sam Reid - #38 ND
Shane Mumford - #57 Rookie (Obtained using pick 28)
Ted Richards - #27 ND (Obtained along with pick 55 using picks 19 and 51)

Not so impressive on paper is it? Or rather it is impressive what has been gleaned from those picks.

You go on to categorically say our success is from the COL cap space we get. Look at the above. Perhaps it is recognising talent, moneyballing it, having "culcha", having exceptional coaches and a few true champions.

Juxtapose Carlton vs our list.

You make it sound as though we wandered out and paid huge money for our list a la Tippett. Nothing could be further from the truth. We grew it. And coached it. And cultured it.

Any wonder we have space left in the cap to marquee a player that fills a gap.

Our unfair advantage comes from a good back office in my opinion. A fact that has been long recognised.

I appreciate your comments though.

Sydney are very good at developing late draft picks/other clubs discards you get cheaply into very good team orientated Footballers. Even Goodes who is a star, is a team first player.


Which is why I am puzzled you want to make Tippet the highest paid player on list. Sure you guys might fix his kicking and teach him to think like a footballer. He may even become the player we thought he would after his 2009 season.

But going by past recruiting and the success rate, you could have done that with Chris Dawes as well. Similar player type to Tip, but a lot cheaper.







I wonder how many Sydney players are paid below their market value, knowing that by staying together they will have success. I then wonder how they feel about Tip becoming the highest paid player in the club. I also wonder about the "fishbowl" of expectation placed on Tip by guys like Jude Bolton and Adam Goodes. And what they will think anytime he shanks a kick into the post after all their hard work to get him the ball...........

 

[The_Answer3]

Salary cap has nothing to do with drafting players in the draft, it's about retaining them and recruiting others.

 

[jenny61_99]

That is the part that could be manipulated.

Sydney play him for 19 games year 1 (if he is not susspended for more) and then the $1m per year for years 5 & 6 is not in play. That could be something that they agreed on to put GWS off.

Is that then not manipulation?

 

[MarkP]

I find it truly mind blowing the arrogance of the Syndey supporters. You are now using the argument that he IS worth a first round pick and a top line player to justify your club paying exceptional overs for him.

I have not argued that at all. Not once.

I am pointing out your hypocrisy on this board for having both sides of an argument and claiming, thus, you are right.

Incredibly only a month ago he was only worth pick 23 + Jesse White because thats what the market decided but now suddenly its not trade week his value has miraculously shot back up. Get a grip you morons dont come on our board and dribble that crap.

The meme was he was always on big money if he came.

Just to be clear I am not asserting that as a "fact" but that was the meme.

FWIW his salary is worth what someone is willing to pay. Your offer ( if true ) will be seen as overs by the majority of footy people and you know that.

Well gosh. Just like his trade value then. What someone is willing to pay and NOT what you deem is fair. If that is not true why not? We are simply discussing a business transaction aren't we.

Having said that your club deemed a second round pick fair and wrote it down just to sure there was no mistaking it. Just making sure you don't lose sight of that (inconvenient) fact.

Our offer (if true) is overs in my book. But so what? It is hard to train a guy to be 202cm and 100kgs if they are not and our recruiting staff does a hell of a job (see my other post) so I will defer to their better judgement.

The fact still remains you want it both ways.Huge compensation for trading him because he is "elite" and howling with protest when he gets "paid as an elite".

See the failure in your argument?

 

[Super sub]

Is that then not manipulation?

It would be if we new there was an agreement between Sydney and Tippett to do that. But without any evidence to show that has happened then the answer is no.

 

[Crow-eater]

*sigh* The thread being free of Sydney flogs was fun while it lasted.

 

[PrideOf]

Not wanting to move the discussion away from the legal draft manipulation too far - but on the subject of 3rd party deals ... this was posted on another site:

List of VISY Environmental Ambassadors for 2012:
Chris Judd
Dennis Armfield
Paul Bower
Dave Ellard
Michael Jamison
Matthew Kruezer
Jeffrey Garlett
Aaron Joseph
Kane Lucas
Jarrad Waite
Rhys O'Keeffe
Marcus Davies
Jordan Russell
Ed Curnow
Eddie Betts
Sam Rowe

Nothing screams 'Let's hide Judd's extra payments' louder than appointing celebrity media magnets like Rhys O'Keefe, Kane Lucas, Dave Ellard, Aaron Joseph, Marcus Davies and Sam Rowe to promote the wonders of Visy cardboard.

 

[MarkP]

Lets put it this way. If say 5-6 years ago when Goodes was at the absolute Peak of his game and would have been your highest paid player, or if not close too, Would have you accepted pick 23 + White for him in a trade?

Nope.

Would we have made a deal on the back of an envelope to trade him for a second rounder to where he wanted to go and paid him outside of the cap and wrote it all down.

No.

Would Adelaide....oh wait.

Why are you projecting and saying "what if". Making up pretends scenarios doesn't mean a thing. Building strawmen is pointless. Chewbacca defences are fun but don't mean anything.

You are simply proving over and over again my original point.

 

[Bugga1962]

I have not argued that at all. Not once.

I am pointing out your hypocrisy on this board for having both sides of an argument and claiming, thus, you are right.



The meme was he was always on big money if he came.

Just to be clear I am not asserting that as a "fact" but that was the meme.



Well gosh. Just like his trade value then. What someone is willing to pay and NOT what you deem is fair. If that is not true why not? We are simply discussing a business transaction aren't we.

Having said that your club deemed a second round pick fair and wrote it down just to sure there was no mistaking it. Just making sure you don't lose sight of that (inconvenient) fact.

Our offer (if true) is overs in my book. But so what? It is hard to train a guy to be 202cm and 100kgs if they are not and our recruiting staff does a hell of a job (see my other post) so I will defer to their better judgement.

The fact still remains you want it both ways.Huge compensation for trading him because he is "elite" and howling with protest when he gets "paid as an elite".

See the failure in your argument?

I dont recall saying i dont class him as elite ? We wanted fair compensation and you werent forthcoming with that. Now i understand that was our fault by tying him into a dodgy contract giving you the loophole you needed to basically extort him out of us for unders, but that doesnt change the fact that what he is rumoured to be offered is overs. Players like Abblett and Franklin, genuine superstars are worth that sort of coin but " potential " stars like Tippett are not.

Good luck to Sydney if they can make this happen they obviously have a lot smarter management than ours but i still believe they are making a mistake getting him. Like they say negative energy feeds off itself and he will inevitably bring negative energy because of how this has unfolded. I just cant understand why a team built on sacrifice and culture would go against all of those values for a player and just as importantly a person like Tippett.

Again FWIW it was rumoured to be a second round compensation we wanted but now it has supposedly changed to a MINIMUM second round compensation both ridiculous things to put into a contract but it wasnt what we rated him or what his market value was was just a starting point to negotiate from there.

 

[Tex200]

*sigh* The thread being free of Sydney flogs was fun while it lasted.

Yes isn't it a treat how they are permitted to spread their bile on our board.

 

[woopedazz]

I think a very vocal majority on this board are acting in the way I have called them out on though.

lulz

 

[Brown_DOG68]

^^
Clearly narcissism is de rigueur when living in Sydney. I now understand why Kurt wants to go there.

 

[Cap]

I have not argued that at all. Not once.

I am pointing out your hypocrisy on this board for having both sides of an argument and claiming, thus, you are right.



The meme was he was always on big money if he came.

Just to be clear I am not asserting that as a "fact" but that was the meme.



Well gosh. Just like his trade value then. What someone is willing to pay and NOT what you deem is fair. If that is not true why not? We are simply discussing a business transaction aren't we.

Having said that your club deemed a second round pick fair and wrote it down just to sure there was no mistaking it. Just making sure you don't lose sight of that (inconvenient) fact.

Our offer (if true) is overs in my book. But so what? It is hard to train a guy to be 202cm and 100kgs if they are not and our recruiting staff does a hell of a job (see my other post) so I will defer to their better judgement.

The fact still remains you want it both ways.Huge compensation for trading him because he is "elite" and howling with protest when he gets "paid as an elite".

See the failure in your argument?

why don't you run along and get your facts right before spouting this garbage here.

in terms of Tippets value

Tippet removed any market mechanism in gaining a fair market value by nominating Sydney - from all reports any one of Carlton, Collingwood and GWS would have paid 1st round draft picks plus, but the ability to move on fair market value was restricted by Tippets actions.

In this instance, the Sydney Swans are who put a value on Tippetts head at $1Mp.a so the Crows can only use recent trade history of $1M players as a guide to what to expect.

So I ask you, can you name any recent $1M players, who have been traded for pick 21 and list clogger?

your attempts to align Tippets value to that of the Crows fan is also misguided, you are doing to buying here, you clearly tried to buy an asset at a forced sale value on the assumption the Crows felt obliged to let Tippet go for nothing (something again you are just regurgitating information not known to be true, there are conflicting reports that it was a "minimum of a 2nd rd" or "a 2nd round" we will know that on the 30th)

Do you honestly believe Tippet to be worth what was offered? or are you simply yapping a way at a position because you lack the independent thought to look beyond what you read in a newspaper?

 

[fabs33]

Nope.

Would we have made a deal on the back of an envelope to trade him for a second rounder to where he wanted to go and paid him outside of the cap and wrote it all down.

No.

Would Adelaide....oh wait.

Why are you projecting and saying "what if". Making up pretends scenarios doesn't mean a thing. Building strawmen is pointless. Chewbacca defences are fun but don't mean anything.

You are simply proving over and over again my original point.

And by making such ill-informed simplistic statements regarding what the AFC did or didn't do proves that you aren't sufficiently aware of the facts to be passing judgement on anyone involved. Combine that with the attitude you have displayed so far...

 

[Cap]

And by making such ill-informed simplistic statements regarding what the AFC did or didn't do proves that you aren't sufficiently aware of the facts to be passing judgement on anyone involved. Combine that with the attitude you have displayed so far...

The guy is a troll luckily enough to be posting in the AFC board where red cards are avoided.

but one of the great joys of bigfooty is watching simpletons perpetuate rumour as fact providing the wonderful spectacle of being completely and utterly wrong when the facts come to light.

 

[fabs33]

The guy is a troll luckily enough to be posting in the AFC board where red cards are avoided.

but one of the great joys of bigfooty is watching simpletons perpetuate rumour as fact providing the wonderful spectacle of being completely and utterly wrong when the facts come to light.

I can spot at least three points of contention in the part I bolded.

1. We agreed to trade him for a second round pick. Our club is saying that we agreed to a minimum of a second round pick, probably a stupid thing to do because another club can take advantage of this if they're aware of the agreement's existence, still stupid but not illegal as far as I'm aware of.

2. That we would trade him to the club of his choice. At various times the club stated that we only agreed to trade him to a club where his home is, which isn't Sydney.

3. We paid him outside the cap. We haven't even paid him anything illegal, inside the cap or out. The issue seems to be centred around the level of our involvement in third party deals, but as has been displayed with other cases (Judd and Selwood), the AFL's rules regarding these matters are very grey.

Doesn't exactly help lend one's other points credence.

 

[Cap]

I can spot at least three points of contention in the part I bolded.

1. We agreed to trade him for a second round pick. Our club is saying that we agreed to a minimum of a second round pick, probably a stupid thing to do because another club can take advantage of this if they're aware of the agreement's existence, still stupid but not illegal as far as I'm aware of.

it will be interesting the context of the agreement, I would love to see a copy of the letter and the context is was put in. I'm fairly sure it wouldn't be a stand alone sentence.

2. That we would trade him to the club of his choice. At various times the club stated that we only agreed to trade him to a club where his home is, which isn't Sydney.

This is where it gets messy, The club can legally argue that they went into any such agreement on the basis it was between the GC and Brisbane, by not disclosing Sydney as a choice theoretically it could void the agreement.

again, it will be interesting the context, I simply fail to see how JR or ST would send a two page letter saying

1) we will trade you to your club of choice

2) We will accept a minimum of a 2nd round draft pick.

Not even someone like me, wouldn't write an email that simple given what is tied to it.

3. We paid him outside the cap. We haven't even payed him anything, inside the cap or out. The issue seems to be centred around the level of our involvement in third party deals, but as has been displayed with other cases (Judd and Selwood), the AFL's rules regarding these matters are very grey.
Doesn't exactly help lend one's other points credence.

This is the part that has the AFL in a bind, I really honestly believe the AFL aren't sure the club broke any rules mainly becuase no money changed hands and it didn't specify a period in which the money would be paid, in effect the Crows could have disclosed it if they needed to make any payments

I reckon we will get pinged with Adrian Andersons "spirit of the law" or something equally as ridiculous.

All those things aside, none of those points remove the fact that Sydney offered a low ball deal.

 

[beartoo]

MarkP - I don't mind you discussing the deal and the potential trade for Tippett, but please don't come on here and tell us to harden up or to shut up. It's a team forum, it's 100% expected that posters are going to be emotional or passionate about their club. The same thing would happen on your team forum, or any other. Be respectful and discuss the issue at hand, not the people discussing it. Please don't make me ask again.
quote]

You say this today, Stabby, but on October 5 you said:

For Opposition Supporters: Be respectful. Don't come in here and tell us Tippett is a spud. Definitely don't come in here with that well-worn line "YOU'LL HAVE TO DEAL WITH US AND TAKE WHATEVER WE OFFER, OR LOSE HIM FOR NOTHING IN THE PSD!" Finally, if you're going to make a trade offer, be realistic. Offering a fringe player and an average draft pick is not realistic, it's disrespectful. The Adelaide mods have the final say on what is realistic and what is not, so if you're not sure, either ask us first or don't bother to post it.

For Adelaide Supporters: When you see an opposition supporter being disrespectful, report the post rather than flying off the handle, it'll make cleaning it up a lot easier. Also, please be polite to those opposition supporters who are trying to be respectful. We're all pissed at how Kurt has handled the situation but there's no reason to take it out on opposition posters that are just asking questions.

Violating these rules will be a red card infraction in the first instance.

Was this not a first instance? What does it take for an abusive opposition supporter to get a red card?