Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 4 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)

[doggies ftw]

We really just lack a ruckman that can ruck when Stefan Martin can not. Because our ruck depth is actually not too bad.

Tim English and Jordan Sweet as ruck back up whilst Sam Darcy (I don't expect he will play ruck - but given who his father was and his size, it's probable that he will at times) develops is a pretty good situation to be in, so long as Stefan Martin stays fit. But that logic can be applied to nearly every team.

The issue is we are looking to find a player who can instantly come in and play 80% of the season as our number one ruck and unfortunately the options are not there. All choices have been speculative which is no different to me saying that Stefan Martin can ruck the entire season.

That logic can be applied to any team sure but we’re applying that logic to a 35 year old who has broken down with stress injuries and has shown literally zero reason in 2 years to believe he will be able to handle even 50% of a season. If someone offered me 100-1 odds to say that Stef Martin will be fit for 15 games next year, I wouldn’t take it. That’s how unlikely it is in my mind.

 

[Foxman98]

100% agree rucks can be found late in the draft, but this is another example of where we’ve neglected the position. People say oh we’ve been chasing Martin for years, so obviously we do rate the ruck position we just want the right one (like Martin is the only ruck in the league capable of playing in our set up??) but in this same time we’ve spent one rookie draft pick on Sweet. Why don’t we have another young ruck coming through in case Sweet, as expected from a rookie pick, fails? Surely there’s been at least one option we like who could maybe take a list spot over oh I dunno Hayes? cavarra?

We’ve completely neglected the position there is no denying this. Probably why rucks aren’t banging the door down to get here even though it looks like such a good fit, why would you when the coach has shown his preference to be playing midfielders in your role

You do realise the few times we put a midfielder into the ruck we win the clearance because the other ruckman is too stupid to know what to do

 

[doggy_dog]

I don't think anyone thinks our ruck division is fine, it clearly is not. However, for our approach to be considered negligent (not your quote but others) is also laughable as there is no player noted that would create an immediate significant upgrade on what we have. There is also the nonsense that Bev doesn't rate rucks, he doesn't rate average rucks that have minimal impact and in fact if the quality is there will play 2.

It is also a fallacy that our rucks cost us the GF. Our mid set up with Libba getting sucked in and no one replacing his sweeper position ( a leadership issue in the middle with Bont off the ground not just on Libba) killed us when they gained momentum as they did the same to Geelong in the 3rd quarter of the PF.

In saying that, too many people are focussing on only this trade period as the opportunity to boost our ruck stocks, you yourself Mof have stated this in your last sentence where you have said we have failed to do so, yet we have the draft, rookie draft and delisted free agents to pick up a mature ruck form the SANFL, WAFL, NTFL, VFL and Tasmanian football league.

This should never be underestimated and I will reserve any criticisms until after the Trade AND draft period. Some of the best rucks going around are rookies ad a current obvious example is Draper at Essendon also Rowan Marshall at the Saints, Reilly O'Brien at Adelaide even guys you have named Strachan, Lynch, Ladhams and Ceglar are all rookie drafted players. Maybe we should wait until after the entire period before judgement and criticism

You’re 100% right that rucks can be found in the rookie draft and all those you’ve mentioned are good examples. However, every single one of them took years to get to AFL standard. That’s the issue. Sure we can draft a developing ruck, but we need someone who can play AFL right now

 

[Foxman98]

That logic can be applied to any team sure but we’re applying that logic to a 35 year old who has broken down with stress injuries and has shown literally zero reason in 2 years to believe he will be able to handle even 50% of a season. If someone offered me 100-1 odds to say that Stef Martin will be fit for 15 games next year, I wouldn’t take it. That’s how unlikely it is in my mind.

Then i'm assuming you dont want Ceglar as he has played less than 15 games more often than he has

 

[Foxman98]

You’re 100% right that rucks can be found in the rookie draft and all those you’ve mentioned are good examples. However, every single one of them took years to get to AFL standard. That’s the issue. Sure we can draft a developing ruck, but we need someone who can play AFL right now

And who is available on a small contract that we can guarantee is AFL standard and an improvement on what we already have?

 

[doggy_dog]

And who is available on a small contract that we can guarantee is AFL standard and an improvement on what we already have?

Jonathan Ceglar.

 

[doggies ftw]

Then i'm assuming you dont want Ceglar as he has played less than 15 games more often than he has

Ceglar is back up to a good ruckman? He’d be our best ruckman and would play every game if fit. Even if he only plays 12 games next year that’s 12 games less we need to worry about. So yes I would take Ceglar, for basically nothing…

 

[Doggies7]

Is Daniel Bandy still in WA ?


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Handy Bandy Just Dandy!

I really liked Bandy, he was solid that first year with us.

 

[Mofra]

You’re 100% right that rucks can be found in the rookie draft and all those you’ve mentioned are good examples. However, every single one of them took years to get to AFL standard. That’s the issue. Sure we can draft a developing ruck, but we need someone who can play AFL right now

Bingo. We're wasting the best years of Bont, Macrae, etc by refusing to trade for a half-decent mature ruck. As Bevo said late last year, the mids were asking constantly when Martin will get back so they clearly want a decent ruck in the middle with them.

It gets even worse when you consider we have JUH & Sam Darcy falling into our laps so can trade hard for established talent and still bring in top-tier kids.

 

[Dav1d]

The new type of medium forward is the Fritsch mould: dynamic, speedy and can take contested grabs. I don't think Wal will get there.
I'll back him in to offer the side something though.

would be great to have a V2 of Tory Dickson, hell of a player at his peak.

 

[Mofra]

Ceglar is back up to a good ruckman? He’d be our best ruckman and would play every game if fit. Even if he only plays 12 games next year that’s 12 games less we need to worry about. So yes I would take Ceglar, for basically nothing…

Hawks are paying most of his salary next year if he gets to Geelong too.

I dare say having Ceglar on the list he plays more games than Hayes or Cavarra did for us this year so we can't exactly get precious about list spots.

 

[bresker]

We have three rucks on the list - how teams many have four? Yes one is 34 & injury prone, but so is Ceglar. Do we want another 30+ injury prone ruck?

 

[Foxman98]

Jonathan Ceglar.

Think you need to have a look back at his career has played more than 15 games once doesn't get much of the ball

 

[stefoid]

Is it possible we have a pick in the 40s earmarked for a matureish state league ruckman in the ND?

 

[Foxman98]

Bingo. We're wasting the best years of Bont, Macrae, etc by refusing to trade for a half-decent mature ruck. As Bevo said late last year, the mids were asking constantly when Martin will get back so they clearly want a decent ruck in the middle with them.

It gets even worse when you consider we have JUH & Sam Darcy falling into our laps so can trade hard for established talent and still bring in top-tier kids.

We also have to pay them then Naughton Smith Dale Daniel can't have a team of stars

 

[BBBaz]

Maybe we should wait until after the entire period before judgement and criticism

But if we all did that it would take away the fun of attention seeking, performative melt downs and the ability to make self-promoting ‘assessments’ of the lack of ability of our match committee and coaches, all based on in depth ‘knowledge’ of the thoughts, skills and feelings of those involved. It’s like you don’t understand Big Footy at all!

 

[TBOW]

It still baffles me that certain posters here think that they know more than the club about...
...Stef Martins body...
...how Bev 'feels' about Sweet...
...the nature of Tim English...
...how xxx back up ruckman is better than anyone on our list.

 

[BallaratBulldog]

It’s the above type of attitude that is why you should shut down the fourm and just say well clubs know better.

 

[Foxman98]

It still baffles me that certain posters here think that they know more than the club about...
...Stef Martins body...
...how Bev 'feels' about Sweet...
...the nature of Tim English...
...how xxx back up ruckman is better than anyone on our list.

Also add that they know more about what position Darcy plays and more about whats in the state league than our recruiters

 

[Virgin Dog]

Is it possible we have a pick in the 40s earmarked for a matureish state league ruckman in the ND?

If we got back in the draft around 40, ideally we recruit Toby Conway as a developing ruck. Sweet is going to be better than the vast majority of state leaguers tbh. With the position we're in (entering a flag window), we need someone who can come in and actually play to a competent enough level. Even Mason Cox would be suitable for depth. Someone worse than Sweet doesn't really put us ahead of where we'd be if we just played Schache there

 

[doggies ftw]

I’d just love to have some indication of what we actually want.

Right now on offer there’s Ceglar - genuine center square ruckman good in the taps, good follow up work, rather one dimensional - not interested.

Lynch - Huge tank, mobile & covers ground with ease, strong contested mark - not interested.

Ladhams - more a hybrid forward/ruck, flexible, mobile - not interested.

I’m just dying to know what we see as required for this position. Yes maybe we were interested in all of these players + more but they didn’t want to come for whatever reason, I understand Power runs a tight ship, but this is the AFL, s**t gets out and the media would at least be linking us to these players if we had any interest whatsoever. I think it’s extremely naive to just think “oh The dogs are so much harder to get information out of than literally every other club in the league, obviously they’re making plays in the background”

RedWhite&Blue I know you don’t actually know which player we nearly had over the line but mate if you could find out that’d be great because * knows what sort of player we’re looking for

 

[Chops]

Ceglar is back up to a good ruckman? He’d be our best ruckman and would play every game if fit. Even if he only plays 12 games next year that’s 12 games less we need to worry about. So yes I would take Ceglar, for basically nothing…

People keep saying Ceglar nothing when we don’t know what he costs in draft picks and definitely a spot on the list.
I know the hawks are paying most his wages but I doubt they don’t want anything for him


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[TBOW]

It’s the above type of attitude that is why you should shut down the fourm and just say well clubs know better.

If you're referring to my comment, I'm all for discussion about ways to improve the list and what we could or should do.
It's just the authority with which some posters repeatedly make claims that gets me.

 

[Dannnnnnnnnn]

I’d just love to have some indication of what we actually want.

Right now on offer there’s Ceglar - genuine center square ruckman good in the taps, good follow up work, rather one dimensional - not interested.

Lynch - Huge tank, mobile & covers ground with ease, strong contested mark - not interested.

Ladhams - more a hybrid forward/ruck, flexible, mobile - not interested.

I’m just dying to know what we see as required for this position. Yes maybe we were interested in all of these players + more but they didn’t want to come for whatever reason, I understand Power runs a tight ship, but this is the AFL, sh*t gets out and the media would at least be linking us to these players if we had any interest whatsoever. I think it’s extremely naive to just think “oh The dogs are so much harder to get information out of than literally every other club in the league, obviously they’re making plays in the background”

RedWhite&Blue I know you don’t actually know which player we nearly had over the line but mate if you could find out that’d be great because fu** knows what sort of player we’re looking for

Yeah I think this post nicely summarises where I'm at.

I'd be in for Ceglar, or possibly Lynch/Fort, and am worried about our ruck situation...but if we don't rate any of these players I'm comfortable not going for them - Bev has shown he'd rather play nobody than a ruck he doesn't like, so there really just isn't any point.

As you say, though, my concern is what exactly we want a ruck to do. I posted this a while back and still feel the same:

I don't really buy into him "not rating" the ruck position. My view is that he just has far too high expectations for what he needs from a ruck around the ground. I worry that his system only really functions with a ruck who is either absolutely dominant (hard to find) or can basically double as an extra midfielder (and these players are either not great in the ruck contest, or they fit into category 1).

Every ruck that is raised apparently doesn't meet our needs enough to justify selecting them over a non-ruck. So what is this unicorn that we're waiting for?

 

[Tommycash]

Name one.
If you don't like the options that have been mentioned here already, who is currently not tied to an AFL club that would be better than those names?

The mid-year draft has largely mined the 2nd tier pool.

No chance it will happen, but Lachlan Delahunty of Subiaco is the sort of Ruckman Bevo would like. He's 30 now so too old, but is 194cm and is best because of his ability to win the ball at ground level.

The better ruckmen in the WAFL are all a bit more mature.