- Oct 13, 2017
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with everything going on with liber we’ve gotta keep smith now. we’re gonna be shagged once treloar is gone if we don’t.
Strategy Trade and List management Thread Part 6 (opposition supporters - READ posting rules before posting)
- Thread starter Norm De Guerre
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Not really,
We've had a core midfield group of Bont/Libba/Treloar for the last 3 years what has it produced?
lachy
Norm Smith Medallist
Actually it is just as much if not more a greater opportunity for Smith to stay a develop as a midfielder as he desires.
He is coming off a reco so where he will sit will be unknown to us
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With Libba uncertain, Macrae out of the starting midfield and Treloar going into the last year of his contract, if being a top line mid is Smith’s goal there is a massive opportunity.
Maybe I’ve been self-radicalising posting in this thread but the more I think about it the more I think our list management team deserve a bit of a bake.
Too many fringe players from other clubs that haven’t worked out, too many years on a lot of contracts and poor replenishment of our midfield stocks.
Nothing against Power, who seems to do a good job on getting deals over the line and managing points and the cap etc. Our list is a bit of a mess and I think our philosophy needs to change. Whether the above is driven by him or whoever gives him directions I don’t know.
Too many fringe players from other clubs that haven’t worked out, too many years on a lot of contracts and poor replenishment of our midfield stocks.
Nothing against Power, who seems to do a good job on getting deals over the line and managing points and the cap etc. Our list is a bit of a mess and I think our philosophy needs to change. Whether the above is driven by him or whoever gives him directions I don’t know.
lachy
Norm Smith Medallist
Keath
Gardner
Duryea
Poulter
Baker
Lobb
Harmes
Coffield
Bramble
9 currently on the list, how many a genuinely best 22?
good article about in The Age with other list managers reviewing our list;
The notion that the Western Bulldogs have a top four list is off the mark according to four of the five club list managers The Age asked to anonymously assess the Bulldogs’ list following their upset loss to Hawthorn.
Such judgments of the list are at the heart of the many external assessments being made of Luke Beveridge’s performance as coach during 2024, as club president Kylie Watson-Wheeler told the ABC on Monday “it was too early in the season to panic or make rash decision.
Four of the five club officials, speaking anonymously to make honest assessments of an opposition list, put the Bulldogs among the bracket of teams that could finish anywhere from fifth to 13th, depending on variables such as luck, injury management, coaching, motivation, team synergy, skill execution and leadership.
Collingwood, Sydney, the Giants, Geelong, the Brisbane Lions, Melbourne and Port Adelaide are considered the main top-four chances this season.
One recruiter described the Bulldogs’ list profile as “confusing”, while another said their defence was “wobbly”. A third list manager said the Dogs’ list indisputably carries top-end talent that is the envy of other clubs, but then it “just drops away”.
The one list manager impressed with what is at the Bulldogs’ disposal put their list “in the top bracket because of the number of A-graders”.
The Western Bulldogs have Marcus Bontempelli, Aaron Naughton, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Bailey Smith, Tim English and, eventually, Sam Darcy in that category.
They have a second tier of players – some premiership players, All-Australians, or both – who, while still of AFL quality, are not at the peak of their careers. These players include Caleb Daniel, Jack Macrae, Jason Johannisen, Taylor Duryea, Bailey Dale and Tom Liberatore (who was outstanding before being concussed in round five) and players on the up such as Ed Richards, Cody Weightman and Rhylee West.
The has club re-signed Ugle-Hagan for two years and Naughton for nine, locking in a two-pronged attack that is yet to match the heights of Carlton’s forward duo Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay. Once Ugle-Hagan’s contract kicks in next season, that is the output they will be expected to meet as they will be on similar money.
Smith and English remain unsigned beyond this season, while Bontempelli’s and Darcy’s contracts finish at the end of 2025. Bontempelli offers more value than any contract he has ever signed, but there is an acknowledgment he needs others to share his burden while English, last year’s All-Australian ruckman, is holding up his end of the bargain. However, clubs constantly debate how much TPP money should be invested in ruckmen.
The Bulldogs know there are gaps, trading into the top 10 in last year’s draft to secure midfielder Ryley Sanders, having landed Ugle-Hagan and Darcy in consecutive years in 2020 and 2021 at pick one and pick two respectively as a Next Generation Academy graduate and a father-son recruit.
They also drafted tall defender Jedd Busslinger in the first round in 2022. He is yet to play a senior match but has been reasonable in the club’s undefeated VFL team.
With Rory Lobb and father-son Jordan Croftalso on their list, one recruiter suggested the club trade out a quality tall, split the pick and add speed to what is – although damaging when they get on top of the opposition – a one-paced midfield.
Another recruiter agreed, saying many of the talls operate better “when they are the main man” and wondered whether that was a reason why the big names weren’t functioning as well as their fans expected.
That recruiter said he found the list “confusing”, with the addition of Lachie Bramble and Oskar Baker as mature-aged players through the pre-season supplemental selection process making “no sense”.
Even the recruiter who assessed the list as A-Grade admitted that the bottom six players selected in the team each week were not as strong as those who played for other contenders.
One recruiter also said the loss of Josh Dunkley to Brisbane and Patrick Lipinski to Collingwood – both of whom played in last year’s grand final – was a misstep the club is yet to recover from, with Adam Treloar the only player traded in since 2020 who has had an impact.
The club-wide review that saw major changes made to the coaching set-up underneath Beveridge was followed by the Peter Jackson review, which backed the coach while recommending that the workload be shared among football department leaders with Matthew Egan being given an operational role as football manager.
But a bounce is yet to occur.
Having missed finals last season after losing eight of their final 11 matches, the club have won just three of their first eight games to sit in 11th spot. Seven of the 13 losses in that period have been by a margin of seven points or fewer.
Caroline Wilson says if the Western Bulldogs don't make finals, Luke Beveridge will be out of a job.
Although they do not have a first-round pick this season, they would be likely to gain one if the injured Smith departs, with Geelong and Hawthorn among his suitors. Gaining an early pick would be handy, said one recruiter, as it could be split and used to draft talent in what recruiters say is shaping as an even and deep draft.
Watson-Wheeler said finals were the obvious ambition at the start of the season, with the Dogs having finished ninth the year before. They play Richmond this weekend before games against the Giants, Sydney and Collingwood.
“I think that we are in a bit of a phase of evolution within the team in determining how we make sure we deliver that high performance that we have the ability to do,” Watson-Wheeler said.
The notion that the Western Bulldogs have a top four list is off the mark according to four of the five club list managers The Age asked to anonymously assess the Bulldogs’ list following their upset loss to Hawthorn.
Such judgments of the list are at the heart of the many external assessments being made of Luke Beveridge’s performance as coach during 2024, as club president Kylie Watson-Wheeler told the ABC on Monday “it was too early in the season to panic or make rash decision.
Four of the five club officials, speaking anonymously to make honest assessments of an opposition list, put the Bulldogs among the bracket of teams that could finish anywhere from fifth to 13th, depending on variables such as luck, injury management, coaching, motivation, team synergy, skill execution and leadership.
Collingwood, Sydney, the Giants, Geelong, the Brisbane Lions, Melbourne and Port Adelaide are considered the main top-four chances this season.
One recruiter described the Bulldogs’ list profile as “confusing”, while another said their defence was “wobbly”. A third list manager said the Dogs’ list indisputably carries top-end talent that is the envy of other clubs, but then it “just drops away”.
The one list manager impressed with what is at the Bulldogs’ disposal put their list “in the top bracket because of the number of A-graders”.
The Western Bulldogs have Marcus Bontempelli, Aaron Naughton, Jamarra Ugle-Hagan, Bailey Smith, Tim English and, eventually, Sam Darcy in that category.
They have a second tier of players – some premiership players, All-Australians, or both – who, while still of AFL quality, are not at the peak of their careers. These players include Caleb Daniel, Jack Macrae, Jason Johannisen, Taylor Duryea, Bailey Dale and Tom Liberatore (who was outstanding before being concussed in round five) and players on the up such as Ed Richards, Cody Weightman and Rhylee West.
The has club re-signed Ugle-Hagan for two years and Naughton for nine, locking in a two-pronged attack that is yet to match the heights of Carlton’s forward duo Charlie Curnow and Harry McKay. Once Ugle-Hagan’s contract kicks in next season, that is the output they will be expected to meet as they will be on similar money.
Smith and English remain unsigned beyond this season, while Bontempelli’s and Darcy’s contracts finish at the end of 2025. Bontempelli offers more value than any contract he has ever signed, but there is an acknowledgment he needs others to share his burden while English, last year’s All-Australian ruckman, is holding up his end of the bargain. However, clubs constantly debate how much TPP money should be invested in ruckmen.
The Bulldogs know there are gaps, trading into the top 10 in last year’s draft to secure midfielder Ryley Sanders, having landed Ugle-Hagan and Darcy in consecutive years in 2020 and 2021 at pick one and pick two respectively as a Next Generation Academy graduate and a father-son recruit.
They also drafted tall defender Jedd Busslinger in the first round in 2022. He is yet to play a senior match but has been reasonable in the club’s undefeated VFL team.
With Rory Lobb and father-son Jordan Croftalso on their list, one recruiter suggested the club trade out a quality tall, split the pick and add speed to what is – although damaging when they get on top of the opposition – a one-paced midfield.
Another recruiter agreed, saying many of the talls operate better “when they are the main man” and wondered whether that was a reason why the big names weren’t functioning as well as their fans expected.
That recruiter said he found the list “confusing”, with the addition of Lachie Bramble and Oskar Baker as mature-aged players through the pre-season supplemental selection process making “no sense”.
Even the recruiter who assessed the list as A-Grade admitted that the bottom six players selected in the team each week were not as strong as those who played for other contenders.
One recruiter also said the loss of Josh Dunkley to Brisbane and Patrick Lipinski to Collingwood – both of whom played in last year’s grand final – was a misstep the club is yet to recover from, with Adam Treloar the only player traded in since 2020 who has had an impact.
The club-wide review that saw major changes made to the coaching set-up underneath Beveridge was followed by the Peter Jackson review, which backed the coach while recommending that the workload be shared among football department leaders with Matthew Egan being given an operational role as football manager.
But a bounce is yet to occur.
Having missed finals last season after losing eight of their final 11 matches, the club have won just three of their first eight games to sit in 11th spot. Seven of the 13 losses in that period have been by a margin of seven points or fewer.
Caroline Wilson says if the Western Bulldogs don't make finals, Luke Beveridge will be out of a job.
Although they do not have a first-round pick this season, they would be likely to gain one if the injured Smith departs, with Geelong and Hawthorn among his suitors. Gaining an early pick would be handy, said one recruiter, as it could be split and used to draft talent in what recruiters say is shaping as an even and deep draft.
Watson-Wheeler said finals were the obvious ambition at the start of the season, with the Dogs having finished ninth the year before. They play Richmond this weekend before games against the Giants, Sydney and Collingwood.
“I think that we are in a bit of a phase of evolution within the team in determining how we make sure we deliver that high performance that we have the ability to do,” Watson-Wheeler said.
- Oct 13, 2017
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Dont think placing the blame on the only three blokes who rock up every week is the right thing to do.
Yeah a midfield collapse would see us get worse. There’s a whole tier of crap below what we are delivering.
Relying on the same three of four players always seemed a losing strategy.
- Aug 15, 2014
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The Poulter move did make a bit of sense. He was a top 30 pick and was only 20 when we picked him up to fill the void of talent in that age bracket as a result of the Darcy & JUH drafts.
It's easy to pick on Bramble & Baker but I think it's well of the mark. Both have played a few solid games this year, only 25 years old and would be solid depth at worst. You don't look at them and think they are well off AFL level like guys in the McNeil, McComb etc. mould.
Our 6-16 players are the ones really letting us down this year.
Where am I placing the blame?
Just pointing out it isn't as good of a midfield group as we all try to claim it is
- May 23, 2019
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Looking fantastic in the VFL.
Wheel him out.. What have we got to lose?
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I've been thinking this for a while. And yes it is something against Power. I'm not giving up on him (nobody's perfect) but I think there are a few questionable decisions in there.
Having said that I presume the usual one-dimensional people will now pile on and call me a Power-hater.
Far from it.
In fairness to him his hand might have been forced on some of those decisions by machinations internal to the club. We don't know. Perhaps his right-hand man Milesi also deserves some scrutiny but I see no real draft clangers to this point. Freijah in particular is looking like a good later pick. Jury is out on Clarke.
Ultimately a list manager is judged by the quality of the list he assembles and Power's been there a few years now. He's okay but some of our list decisions have raised an eyebrow or two.
threenewpadlocks
Brownlow Medallist
There's zero doubt that Bevo's "we'll support and back in our players", which probably overall is a good attitude to have, has the down-side of not being cuthroat enough with fringe players who stay on the list one year to big.
It's been said here that Fletcher Roberts is the best example of that, even though it was a little while ago. Roberts extended his contract in late June 2017 until the end of 2019... at a point in time that he was not in the best 22 at the time (though recently had been). He proceeded to be selected for only 5 more games out of the 55 played that he was on our list, even though he was more or less fit the entire time.
Baker is in his seventh season on an AFL list and still hasn’t nailed down a regular game. He might be ok for a cameo once in a while, but we’ve accumulated too many list cloggers over the years.
I’ve posted on it extensively elsewhere but fringe players from other clubs just become fringe players at your club. Might be ok to take a punt on one every few years, but we’ve had quite a few recently and none have panned out.
Poulter was at least young, but we’re crying out for a player in his position and he’s in and out (mostly out). I’d be surprised if their contracts are renewed in 2025 and I’ll be stunned if either becomes a regular.
Looks a class above anyone else in the VFL. Been our best every week. Fully expecting him to debut against the Tigers on Saturday.
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Given how some of our players have been performing at AFL level, it would be a shame if all of Freijah, Sanders, Busslinger & Clarke aren't playing on Saturday night at the MCG. It would give the group and supporters something to look forward to.
I'd much rather see all of them play and make mistakes than some of the other guys. Bevo won't do it though and we'll be lucky to get 2 of them playing.
you should know bevo by now, he rarely gives out games to young players who arnt ready. they usually have to wait their time in the VFL for a season or so
I would be shocked if he does not debut - has been very good in the VFL. Strong,has pace, great neat kick and good decision maker.Has to be fast tracked.Should replace any of Baker,Bramble,Gallagher.Looks like the type who would immediately fit in.
That was a glaringly bizarre one. I posted the moment that likely ended his career somewhere in this thread and it was about a fortnight after the extension.
Then we extended Schache for three years while actively recruiting his replacement etc.
The Poulter and Baker deals are even more bizarre - one year ago plus easily have done it. Maybe it is to give them confidence or maybe it’s to lock them on a fixed salary in case they take off, but it’s not necessary.
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These sort of things are why I pondered in a post recently that the communication and collaboration between Bevo and Power may not be as tight as it needs to be. Are they even on the same page?
Some reals headscratchers there.
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