Transgender

[ShanDog]

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like well-mannered adults when discussing it, PARTICULARLY when disagreeing. This equally applies across the whole site.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Could you not then make the argument - along similar lines - that using the N word is likewise an etiquette issue?

We as a society have come to certain conclusions about the use of some words as they pertain to the law via the racial vilification. We could also - in future - seek to extend that into purely vilification by adding deadnaming or failure to acknowledge gender.

No. People of African descent have a genuine grievance that they're discriminated against purely because of what they are.

Most minorities could make this case, and it is absolutely valid.

Trans people are saying they are being discriminated against because of what they feel they are.

That's not to say it's ever OK to discriminate against trans people; all people should be treated with dignity and respect. But if people can't see the relative intellectual weakness of their case, compared to discrimination against, say, black people, or women, I don't know what to say.

I really don't know what the issue is, then.

Well if you proceed from the position that anyone who accedes to all wishes of a tiny minority is automatically a decent person, but anyone who has any misgivings about what they're being asked to accept is not a decent person, you wouldn't, would you?

What you've just described is a baby step. People take these small steps in pursuit of progress all the time; I'm sure people originally thought it was a bit silly how they couldn't racially abuse people at footy matches anymore, and we're frequently told how 'silly' all the themed rounds are.

Those small steps - improvement by increment - lead to longlasting change. Civil rights were not won immediately; the vote was not won for women or others immediately. Peasants did not all of a sudden win freedoms back from their kings and we immediately sprung into 21st century capitalist models.

I think this line of reasoning - depicting society as is without historical context or the implication that it is constantly in a state of reluctant change - is a bit... lacking, to be honest. On one hand, you can isolate things much more easily to allow you to make more objective arguments; on the other, the things you're making objective arguments about are not static, nor ar they always as you depict them.

Yep, and as I've said elsewhere, the world will be burned to a crisp, and people on here will still be whipping themselves into butter over something that is of next to zero concern to the vast majority of the planet.

You will probably counter that you like to think you can walk and chew gum at the same time. Well I say look around. While you think you're approaching things holistically, I think you're being played like a cheap violin by the right wing. Rising to the bait every. single. time. While meanwhile, they get away with murder.

Sheesh, I'm hardly alone in saying the left's obsession with reducing everything to identity is hindering their effectiveness on a wide range of issues. People on here are acting like this is all news.

I would hazard a guess that every time a fresh identity politics grievance rears its head, a lot of those hard heads in the Greens (and what's left of the progressive element in the ALP) - the ones who make the tough daily decisions about strategy - roll their eyes and go "FMD not this again."

Politics is the art of the possible. Choosing your battles.

I also really don't like your majoritarian argument. It feels like tyranny of the masses writ large;

Democracy is the "tyranny" of the majority. By definition.

Were society so static, how on earth has change ever happened, SPD?

As I've said, by winning over the majority. And I'm not in any way convinced a fixation on the grievances of a tiny sliver of society is any way to go about that.

In a democracy, how else do you think minority rights are won? They are won only on the sufferance of the majority. One of life's tough lessons.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

It kind of is when you look at the big-ticket speakers and the up and coming "talent" in the TERF field.

Yes, if you narrow the entire question down to who's appearing on the bill at one single event, you'd be dead right.

 

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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