Transgender

[Gralin]

Discussion continuing in Part 2 found here

Transgender - Part 2

Please be aware that the tolerance of anti-trans language on BF is at an all-time low. Jokes and insults that are trans-related, as well as anti-trans and bigoted rhetoric will be met with infractions, threadbans etc as required. It's a sensitive (and important) topic, so behave like...

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[kirsti]

The logical reasoning behind your questions is pretty impressive.

I think what Kirsti believes is that the line should be set at a level that stops someone from getting the best of both worlds ie playing in a women's league with a man's physique/testosterone.

Is that right, Kirsti?



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Exactly and I am sure Demontim gets it as well. He offers no.alternative but to not allow trans athletes at all. This is the third time in a week this member has chased me around BF trying to mix words my words even last night by way of pm and that was after threatening to place me on his ignore list.

 

[DemonTim]

The logical reasoning behind your questions is pretty impressive.

I think what Kirsti believes is that the line should be set at a level that stops someone from getting the best of both worlds ie playing in a women's league with a man's physique/testosterone.

Is that right, Kirsti?



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I understNd where she draws the line. I'm just saying that drawing the line is discrimination. Although as I've said the studies I've read have said a lot more research is needed to determine if physical advantages still exist post therapy

As I said it started when she made the claim that sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities. That's not an accurate reflection of her attitude. It's more accurately sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities as long as she agrees with how they cater.

She seems against that article about the recent changes that allowed a trans woman to play. Am I wrong on that?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

This doesn't sound in adherence with the attitude that "sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities"

But I also agree with you that your line of questioning proves that there is no objective truth behind a lot of this. It's entirely subjective. One trans supporter may believe all trans should be able to play sport with women, whereas the next will think the opposite.

Does that therefore mean the same with a lot of other trans issues? Is there anything concrete, anything objective in the trans-movement?

The only thing I can still see as an objective reality in gender/sexuality is biological reproductive organs. The rest appears to be subjective, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. However, it makes it a harder issue to really understand.


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[DemonTim]

Exactly and I am sure Demontim gets it as well. He offers no.alternative but to not allow trans athletes at all. This is the third time in a week this member has chased me around BF trying to mix words my words even last night by way of pm and that was after threatening to place me on his ignore list.

Oh dear. I responded to your request for a link and you had a go at me for it. I then sent a pm asking if me responding is going to result in thread derailments, and if it is, I will place you on ignore and stop responding to as I can't be bothered with childish arguments.

You accused me of things I'd never done and when I correctly quoted myself and told you what you said was inaccurate you stopped responding.

You also continually mentioned my name in comments in another thread, without quoting or actually mentioning me, in posts that had no relevance to me

This is an extremely dishonest post. And the entire reason I asked if I should place you on ignore. As you are unable to have honest discussion on topics.

Every questioned posed at you that questions your standpoint (not just by myself) you ignore. Then abuse people for having a differing opinion.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

I understNd where she draws the line. I'm just saying that drawing the line is discrimination. Although as I've said the studies I've read have said a lot more research is needed to determine if physical advantages still exist post therapy

As I said it started when she made the claim that sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities. That's not an accurate reflection of her attitude. It's more accurately sporting fields are obliged to cater to minorities as long as she agrees with how they cater.

She seems against that article about the recent changes that allowed a trans woman to play. Am I wrong on that?

I completely agree with you. It is technically discrimination, and I think Kirsti is misconstruing it as discrimination always means bad things. I think it's a positive form of discrimination, because it protects the integrity of women's sport.

I know nothing about post-op body effects so I won't bother trying to speak on that.


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[DemonTim]

But I also agree with you that your line of questioning proves that there is no objective truth behind a lot of this. It's entirely subjective. One trans supporter may believe all trans should be able to play sport with women, whereas the next will think the opposite.

Does that therefore mean the same with a lot of other trans issues? Is there anything concrete, anything objective in the trans-movement?

The only thing I can still see as an objective reality in gender/sexuality is biological reproductive organs. The rest appears to be subjective, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. However, it makes it a harder issue to really understand.


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This is basically what I'm trying to show. That it appears everyone wants to draw a line and discriminate based on something. Even minorities. It actually kind of reminds me of something I read about homosexuals discriminating against bisexuals in a similar way to straights discriminating against homosexuals.

 

[DemonTim]

I completely agree with you. It is technically discrimination, and I think Kirsti is misconstruing it as discrimination always means bad things. I think it's a positive form of discrimination, because it protects the integrity of women's sport.

I know nothing about post-op body effects so I won't bother trying to speak on that.


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It's a strange one. Kristi disagrees with the current AFL and IOC stand and wants them to make less people allowed to compete, but cracks it at me for making a suggestion that less people should compete. I just don't understand how you can get annoyed at "trans women shouldn't compete against women" while holding the view that "pre op trans women shouldn't compete against women". They're both using the same logic and both discrimating against some.

Would it be discrimination to suggest trans women have a seperate category? Or to consult AFLW on what they find most fair?

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

This is basically what I'm trying to show. That it appears everyone wants to draw a line and discriminate based on something. Even minorities. It actually kind of reminds me of something I read about homosexuals discriminating against bisexuals in a similar way to straights discriminating against homosexuals.

I think this is the problem with a lot of intersectionality. If everything isn't 'everybody love everybody' then it quickly devolves into who deserves the most sympathy, who has it the worst etc.

With objective truths, there can be no firm line to really identify and separate these issues.


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[kirsti]

But I also agree with you that your line of questioning proves that there is no objective truth behind a lot of this. It's entirely subjective. One trans supporter may believe all trans should be able to play sport with women, whereas the next will think the opposite.

Does that therefore mean the same with a lot of other trans issues? Is there anything concrete, anything objective in the trans-movement?

The only thing I can still see as an objective reality in gender/sexuality is biological reproductive organs. The rest appears to be subjective, and I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with that. However, it makes it a harder issue to really understand.


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The only things set in concrete with the trans movement with laws such as changing gender markers, sporting policies and certain laws within the Anti Discrimination Act.

I always considered I was born with a female brain inside a male body. I never described myself as a woman until 2006 when the laws of Nsw agreed with me and granted mena female birth certificate. I don't claim to be a biological born woman, I consider myself a woman from a transgender background. Prior to my confirmation surgery I considered myself a pre op transgender woman and the law in Australia agreed with me.

As for toilet use I don't agree with self identification as enough to grant a person the right to use the toilets or bathroom of the opposite sex. I have my views on this and I feel that until then12 month real life experience is commenced no swapping of toilets should take place. I am sure a certain member will say I am discriminating again.

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

And yes, I have heard of gays discriminating against bisexuals for just wanting to 'play gay' before they go back to normal or something.


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[DemonTim]

The only things set in concrete with the trans movement with laws such as changing gender markers, sporting policies and certain laws within the Anti Discrimination Act.

I always considered I was born with a female brain inside a male body. I never described myself as a woman until 2006 when the laws of Nsw agreed with me and granted mena female birth certificate. I don't claim to be a biological born woman, I consider myself a woman from a transgender background. Prior to my confirmation surgery I considered myself a pre op transgender woman and the law in Australia agreed with me.

As for toilet use I don't agree with self identification as enough to grant a person the right to use the toilets or bathroom of the opposite sex. I have my views on this and I feel that until then12 month real life experience is commenced no swapping of toilets should take place. I am sure a certain member will say I am discriminating again.

See what I mean. Snide remarks.

Herculez has gotten the point I was making. And doesn't need to resort to being a child about it.

I won't respond to you further. You've accused me of being racist, homophobic, transphobic, using aliases to push these views, and continually make little shitty smart arse comments when your views are questioned or when i simply respond to a request you make. It's incredibly childish and I'm not going to be involved in any more thread derailing because you hold grudges against anyone who questions your views.

Good luck with footy this year

 

[DemonTim]

And yes, I have heard of gays discriminating against bisexuals for just wanting to 'play gay' before they go back to normal or something.


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It was something along the lines of not as bad as straight against homosexual discrimination, but wasn't far off

I've had a few arguments where people have said "anyone who claims to be bi is a liar. Bisexuals don't exist"

 

[Brunswick Trap King]

The only things set in concrete with the trans movement with laws such as changing gender markers, sporting policies and certain laws within the Anti Discrimination Act.

I always considered I was born with a female brain inside a male body. I never described myself as a woman until 2006 when the laws of Nsw agreed with me and granted mena female birth certificate. I don't claim to be a biological born woman, I consider myself a woman from a transgender background. Prior to my confirmation surgery I considered myself a pre op transgender woman and the law in Australia agreed with me.

As for toilet use I don't agree with self identification as enough to grant a person the right to use the toilets or bathroom of the opposite sex. I have my views on this and I feel that until then12 month real life experience is commenced no swapping of toilets should take place. I am sure a certain member will say I am discriminating again.

I understand, and I'm not discounting your life experience, nor am I saying you are wrong.

It's hard to make sense of something like this that is so abstract. Because of how hard it is to imagine, I have no choice but to debate and reason with people to try to further understand it.

Once again, the toilet thing IS discrimination. That doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong, it merely reflects that you think certain trans shouldn't be allowed to do so. It doesn't mean that you should feel bad. Everyone is entitled to their belief.


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[kirsti]

It's a strange one. Kristi disagrees with the current AFL and IOC stand and wants them to make less people allowed to compete, but cracks it at me for making a suggestion that less people should compete. I just don't understand how you can get annoyed at "trans women shouldn't compete against women" while holding the view that "pre op trans women shouldn't compete against women". They're both using the same logic and both discrimating against some.

Would it be discrimination to suggest trans women have a seperate category? Or to consult AFLW on what they find most fair?

I don't"crack" at you for your belief but you are hell bent on calling me out for discriminating against pre op women. I know pre transition I was a strong male athlete. I have been through the complete change and I know from both personal experience and via years studying these issues that a trans male to female person does lose thenphysical advantage once undertaking hormone treatment. I have clearly stated the reasons why I don't agree with the new IOC and AFL policies and why I preferred the old. None of my reasons include my desire to have less trans people competing in sport my soul reason is because I want a fair balance for both trans an non trans athletes.

 

[DemonTim]

I don't"crack" at you for your belief but you are hell bent on calling me out for discriminating against pre op women. I know pre transition I was a strong male athlete. I have been through the complete change and I know from both personal experience and via years studying these issues that a trans male to female person does lose thenphysical advantage once undertaking hormone treatment. I have clearly stated the reasons why I don't agree with the new IOC and AFL policies and why I preferred the old. None of my reasons include my desire to have less trans people competing in sport my soul reason is because I want a fair balance for both trans an non trans athletes.

I understand, and I'm not discounting your life experience, nor am I saying you are wrong.

It's hard to make sense of something like this that is so abstract. Because of how hard it is to imagine, I have no choice but to debate and reason with people to try to further understand it.

Once again, the toilet thing IS discrimination. That doesn't mean that your opinion is wrong, it merely reflects that you think certain trans shouldn't be allowed to do so. It doesn't mean that you should feel bad. Everyone is entitled to their belief.


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I know I said I'd stop, but considering even the scientific community holds differing views, I'd find it weird that one individual could do enough study to make a determination and it NOT be published. What were your findings re: hip joint structure etc? Especially in reference to weight bearing activity?

Herculez has summed up my point re: discrimination exactly as I've written it, and has agreed. You've missed the point and again gone at me. This is why there's no point discussing things.

As I said, good luck with the season ahead.

 

[kirsti]

I know I said I'd stop, but considering even the scientific community holds differing views, I'd find it weird that one individual could do enough study to make a determination and it NOT be published. What were your findings re: hip joint structure etc? Especially in reference to weight bearing activity?

Herculez has summed up my point re: discrimination exactly as I've written it, and has agreed. You've missed the point and again gone at me. This is why there's no point discussing things.

As I said, good luck with the season ahead.

Same to you Demontim

 

[kirsti]

I am happy to say I currently have 12 Aussie Trans Athletes who I have created a fb group with. We are all experienced athletes both prior to and post transition. I am excited by what this group can achieve in the future I am not aware of any other similar group in existence in Australia or abroad.

None of us are out to hurt females or female sport most of us are parents and some grand parents.

We hope to find as level playing field as possible for both trans and non trans athletes.

 

[TimmeT]

I am happy to say I currently have 12 Aussie Trans Athletes who I have created a fb group with. We are all experienced athletes both prior to and post transition. I am excited by what this group can achieve in the future I am not aware of any other similar group in existence in Australia or abroad.

None of us are out to hurt females or female sport most of us are parents and some grand parents.

We hope to find as level playing field as possible for both trans and non trans athletes.

Have any of you asked female athletes (biological women) what they think about competing against transgendered ones. I know some immensely hate it and think its an unfair situation.

 

[kirsti]

We

Have any of you asked female athletes (biological women) what they think about competing against transgendered ones. I know some immensely hate it and think its an unfair situation.

We are a newly formed group who have all played women's sport. The eldest member of our group was the first track and field trans athlete in the World her story came out in the mid 1980's. Yes we have all spoken to women both on and off the sporting fields and each and everyone of us is a parent of daughters and a few including me are grandparents.

None of us put ourselves before women or sport we have the utmost respect for all women.

We hope to be a resource of information and to be able to do Ask Me Anything Type Forums in the community and with sporting groups.

I understand that a lot of people hate transgender people immensely. I just hope the haters have a true understanding of transgender people before they decide to in act their hate towards people like me.

It takes guts to be your true self in life, I am an extremely open and proud person who has represented my country in 2 sports, I have achieved post grad qualifications, I have served as a Superintendent in Maximum Security Prisons, I have had to restrain Ivan Milat, Raymond Travis and other infamous criminals. I played first grade Rugby League and AFL, I have captained the Riverina Rugby Union Team, but coming onto Big Footy everyday is just as scary as anything I have done in the past. I face immense hate everytime but I stay here because I have seen so much acceptance and I have received so much support this support and acceptance negates all of the hate I get my way.

You as a poster have attacked me continuously throughout this thread you are putridly transphobic towards me and others. I don't hate you immensely I fear people like you in the greater community. I respond to your vicious attacks on me with forgiveness and I offer you my hand in friendship because the cause is always far greater then the person.

Please continue to learn and grow you really need to mate xx

 

[kirsti]

And I forgot to mention I have three biological female soccer teams fighting over mine and my beautiful biological female partners signatures to play soccer this year,.did I mention as well as a crack centre half forward in AFL I am also a great soccer goalkeeper in the Biological Women's Soccer A Grade Competition in Broken Hill, so yeah I have spoken to other biological women about me playing sport so much so they are fighting over me to play with them in their biological women's teams.

 

[Appa]

I understand that a lot of people hate transgender people immensely.

Not true. An extremely small minority may, but definitely not a lot.

It takes guts to be your true self in life

It takes no courage at all to be your true self. It is immensely easy.

I am an extremely open and proud person

You call yourself open yet you disregard every opposing opinion as either bigoted or a personal attack on you.

but coming onto Big Footy everyday is just as scary as anything I have done in the past.

You may just not be suited for a discussion board if this is truly the case.

I face immense hate everytime

I have seen you receive no hate. Some people have challenged your opinions and views as will and should happen on a discussion board.

I have received so much support this support and acceptance negates all of the hate I get my way.

This is good to see.

You as a poster have attacked me continuously throughout this thread you are putridly transphobic towards me and others.

A horrible accusation and something that is untrue. I hope TimmeT is not discouraged from posting further by being called transphobic for simply having a different opinion than a trans-gendered person.

Please continue to learn and grow you really need to mate xx

Ironic.

I wish you and your athlete group all the best in sports related trans issues. It is definitely something that i see value you for. You face a complicated issue and something that needs civil discussions, I hope you do it in the right manner.

 

[kirsti]

Not true. An extremely small minority may, but definitely not a lot.

It takes no courage at all to be your true self. It is immensely easy.

You call yourself open yet you disregard every opposing opinion as either bigoted or a personal attack on you.

You may just not be suited for a discussion board if this is truly the case.

I have seen you receive no hate. Some people have challenged your opinions and views as will and should happen on a discussion board.

This is good to see.

A horrible accusation and something that is untrue. I hope TimmeT is not discouraged from posting further by being called transphobic for simply having a different opinion than a trans-gendered person.

Ironic.

I wish you and your athlete group all the best in sports related trans issues. It is definitely something that i see value you for. You face a complicated issue and something that needs civil discussions, I hope you do it in the right manner.

I hope your 20th BF Post is better then your 19th.

 

[Appa]

I hope your 20th BF Post is better then your 19th.

Me too. I always strive to improve myself.

 

[TimmeT]

I hope your 20th BF Post is better then your 19th.

You complain people are hateful and abusive towards you then you come up with comments like these.

 

[TimmeT]

We
We are a newly formed group who have all played women's sport. The eldest member of our group was the first track and field trans athlete in the World her story came out in the mid 1980's. Yes we have all spoken to women both on and off the sporting fields and each and everyone of us is a parent of daughters and a few including me are grandparents.

None of us put ourselves before women or sport we have the utmost respect for all women.

We hope to be a resource of information and to be able to do Ask Me Anything Type Forums in the community and with sporting groups.

I understand that a lot of people hate transgender people immensely. I just hope the haters have a true understanding of transgender people before they decide to in act their hate towards people like me.

It takes guts to be your true self in life, I am an extremely open and proud person who has represented my country in 2 sports, I have achieved post grad qualifications, I have served as a Superintendent in Maximum Security Prisons, I have had to restrain Ivan Milat, Raymond Travis and other infamous criminals. I played first grade Rugby League and AFL, I have captained the Riverina Rugby Union Team, but coming onto Big Footy everyday is just as scary as anything I have done in the past. I face immense hate everytime but I stay here because I have seen so much acceptance and I have received so much support this support and acceptance negates all of the hate I get my way.

You as a poster have attacked me continuously throughout this thread you are putridly transphobic towards me and others. I don't hate you immensely I fear people like you in the greater community. I respond to your vicious attacks on me with forgiveness and I offer you my hand in friendship because the cause is always far greater then the person.

Please continue to learn and grow you really need to mate xx

Sorry but asking questions or holding different opinions to others does not make them have a phobia. All you've done is attacked me for holding a different opinion to you which you disagree with and dislike. You are acting very similarly to how Zoe turr acted towards Ben Shapiro for simply having a different position without making a threat of a physical nature.