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VB = Bickley reincarnated

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Southerntakeover said:
Why would you make such a stupid statement if you didnt know his actual career high?
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I was sinmply making the point that Bickley was a ball magnet and VB aint. It would appear that some would rather nit pick details rather than get it. It was a comment never intended to be taken literally, duh.

Not all of us are wannabe school teachers dealing in small details, marking other peoples posts.
 
Wood_Duck said:
I was sinmply making the point that Bickley was a ball magnet and VB aint. It would appear that some would rather nit pick details rather than get it. It was a comment never intended to be taken literally, duh.

Not all of us are wannabe school teachers dealing in small details, marking other peoples posts.
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Small details? You made a massive call and were ridiculously far off the mark. Thats not nit picking details, the entire substance of your point was crap.

As far as Bickley being a ball magnet, got any proof?

A career average of 20 disposals suggests you're full of crap.

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=754


Over the past three seasons van Berlo has averaged: 20, 22, 21 disposals....




Oh wow, looks like your fall back position was also garbage. Any other points you care to be wrong on?
 
I'm a VB fan. He's a good little player but there's no denying he has minimal hurt factor. Probably the AFC equivalent of Kane Cornes. In the 24-29 age bracket he is a player who can be out of the team for whatever reason and not really impact the result. I put him in the Brad Symes class ie good honest player but he's never going to win you the match, however, still an important player.
 
I really think people put too much emphasis on the flashy when it comes to 'win you games'. People remember the running goal etc... they dont seem to remember the run down holding the ball, the smother, or the pressure which can equally influence a result.
 
Southerntakeover said:
I really think people put too much emphasis on the flashy when it comes to 'win you games'. People remember the running goal etc... they dont seem to remember the run down holding the ball, the smother, or the pressure which can equally influence a result.
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Hard to argue with this.
 
Southerntakeover said:
Small details? You made a massive call and were ridiculously far off the mark. Thats not nit picking details, the entire substance of your point was crap.

As far as Bickley being a ball magnet, got any proof?

A career average of 20 disposals suggests you're full of crap.

http://finalsiren.com/PlayerStats.asp?PlayerID=754


Over the past three seasons van Berlo has averaged: 20, 22, 21 disposals....




Oh wow, looks like your fall back position was also garbage. Any other points you care to be wrong on?
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We are indeed blessed by the accuracy of your information. Are you really trying to tell me that VB is currently in the same league as Bickley, or wont you be able to find any numbers to form your opinion for you.
 

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Southerntakeover said:
God you're impotent.

You've made multiple claims of fact, and have been categorically disproved.

Either provide a decent argument, or man up and admit you were wrong clown.
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Talk about a legend in his own lunch box.

I probably should have updated my stats before I made the comment. But comparing posessions in todays football to when Bicks played is largely useless given the high posession football played these days.

You've jumped on an off the cuff throw away line and come up with some numbers to prove it wrong. You are clearly very proud of yourself.

Do you actually have a comment or opinion on the subject, or are you only interested in blowing your own trumpet because you googled some stats.
 
Wood_Duck said:
We are indeed blessed by the accuracy of your information. Are you really trying to tell me that VB is currently in the same league as Bickley, or wont you be able to find any numbers to form your opinion for you.
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Look - I'm with STO when it comes to distaste of people just making throw away comments, that are easily disproven and often are, than constructing a reasonable argument and debating it with some effort put into the thought process. When you got provided information once you went on to make another incorrect statement. Makes it SO hard to give your actual point any credence.

However - on a straight VB/Bickley comparison I'd say Bickely was better than I currently believe VB will be.

I agree the possession importance is different in todays footy. But its not just numbers where it matters - its quality of possessions. One key area for me that concerns me with VB's ability to influence games, like we remember Bickely used to, is his ball use. It's not always spot on when it needs to be. Can be lethal at times though. However... Bicks could have been easily exposed as being worse in todays footy!! We'll never know.

VB does have the potential to better, would not suprise me in the least - his aerobic abilities are ELITE. He'll get to more contests than Bickely ever could. The thing working against him in this comparision.. Bicks is a 2-time premiership Captain :) That does colour the glasses with rose doesn't it.

PS i was a little suprised to see talk of 'flashy stuff' when we are comparing bickely and vb.. .;)
 
Wood_Duck said:
Talk about a legend in his own lunch box.

I probably should have updated my stats before I made the comment. But comparing posessions in todays football to when Bicks played is largely useless given the high posession football played these days.
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And yet you made the comparison...

Ill address this in good faith, although its probably wasted given your refusal to come to a serious grip with any of the material we've discussed so far.

Theres a certain case to be made that the data disposal wise has shifted. Its worth noting that the disposals numbers at the top end havent exactly shifted, but once you hit the middle of the pack there have been increases.

Bickley was never amongst the top 10 players in the league in average disposals, in any season during his entire career. Thats not to slight him, but he wasnt an elite possession getter, in my opinion. His career best rating amongst the league in average disposals is certainly better than van Berlos, although id also argue that if you have to take into account increases in possession counts, you must also take into account how roles have changed over the years.

Wood_Duck said:
You've jumped on an off the cuff throw away line and come up with some numbers to prove it wrong. You are clearly very proud of yourself.
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So, i actually looked at the facts... how dare i!

Wood_Duck said:
Do you actually have a comment or opinion on the subject, or are you only interested in blowing your own trumpet because you googled some stats.
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Let me get this straight...

You're worried about a lack of me expressing my opinion on the topic of Nathan van Berlo?

Oh geez, this is too much.
 
Allefgib said:
However - on a straight VB/Bickley comparison I'd say Bickely was better than I currently believe VB will be.
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Is? Yes. Will be? Wait and see. Bickley was a very very good player for us for a number of years. Has the runs on the board.

Allefgib said:
I agree the possession importance is different in todays footy. But its not just numbers where it matters - its quality of possessions. One key area for me that concerns me with VB's ability to influence games, like we remember Bickely used to, is his ball use. It's not always spot on when it needs to be. Can be lethal at times though. However... Bicks could have been easily exposed as being worse in todays footy!! We'll never know.
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I think this is a better discussion.

Ball winning is not van Berlo's flaw... whether or not hes impactful... Its up for debate.

In actuality, hes one of the best users of the handball ive ever see. Watch one of our games, and see how many times he sets up a beautiful running chain through timing and directing his handball to exactly the right point.

Allefgib said:
VB does have the potential to better, would not suprise me in the least - his aerobic abilities are ELITE. He'll get to more contests than Bickely ever could. The thing working against him in this comparision.. Bicks is a 2-time premiership Captain :) That does colour the glasses with rose doesn't it.
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Of course.

I dont think this thread was intended as 'van Berlo is better than Bickley'. That would be disrespectful, whereas this thread to me is a homage.

Allefgib said:
PS i was a little suprised to see talk of 'flashy stuff' when we are comparing bickely and vb.. .;)
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I think it was more in the context of people suggesting you need to be a 'game winner' to be captain... :)
 

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Southerntakeover said:
In actuality, hes one of the best users of the handball ive ever see. Watch one of our games, and see how many times he sets up a beautiful running chain through timing and directing his handball to exactly the right point.
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Tongue firmly in cheek again but..

Now we're comparing VB to A Jarman (or we can go for Diesel Williams too if you like... ;)
 
Allefgib said:
Bicks is a 2-time premiership Captain :) That does colour the glasses with rose doesn't it.
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I've never bought that type of argument. That's more a case of being in the right place at the right time. There have been fantastic captains of all clubs that never played in a premiership team but would have been far better players than Bickley.

That's the same argument as "but.. but... he's a premiership player!!"

Aaron Keating was an AFL premiership player and an SANFL premiership player within a week, and he was almost a CP. One of the worst, who made no contribution to either flag.

FWIW I was always a great fan of Bickley and his honesty and hardness in the way that he played..

IMO van Berlo is in the same mould as Bickley, and while they are somewhat different in style, VB does have those same virtues of honesty and hardness.

Bickley proved to be a great choice of captains in an era when he was clearly not in the elite of our players at the time of his appointment.

IMO VB is in a similar situation and I see no reason why he wouldn't be a quality captain as Bickley proved to be.
 
macca23 said:
I've never bought that type of argument. That's more a case of being in the right place at the right time. There have been fantastic captains of all clubs that never played in a premiership team but would have been far better players than Bickley.

That's the same argument as "but.. but... he's a premiership player!!"

Aaron Keating was an AFL premiership player and an SANFL premiership player within a week, and he was almost a CP. One of the worst, who made no contribution to either flag.

FWIW I was always a great fan of Bickley and his honesty and hardness in the way that he played..

IMO van Berlo is in the same mould as Bickley, and while they are somewhat different in style, VB does have those same virtues of honesty and hardness.

Bickley proved to be a great choice of captains in an era when he was clearly not in the elite of our players at the time of his appointment.

IMO VB is in a similar situation and I see no reason why he wouldn't be a quality captain as Bickley proved to be.
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Hence the use of 'colouring'. Implying its a preception adjustment not a reflection of reality.
 
Allefgib said:
Look - I'm with STO when it comes to distaste of people just making throw away comments, that are easily disproven and often are, than constructing a reasonable argument and debating it with some effort put into the thought process. When you got provided information once you went on to make another incorrect statement. Makes it SO hard to give your actual point any credence.
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Fair point and I will take that on the chin. I plucked a number to try and highlight what in my opinion are major differences between Bickley and VB's games. I wont use numbers again though, as I have highlighted myself that direct comparisons between footballers of different eras is farcical.

Once again my arguement went a bit awry when STO took my numbers literally rather then in the general sense they were intended. Insead of 20 I should have said 500, maybe people would have understood I was making a point rather trying to make a direct comparison of statistics.

Effective posessions would probably be a better measure to make my point but I really dont care enough to try and find out.

In my opinion VB does not impact a game of football as much as Bickley did.
 

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