Viduka

[Dimenhydrinate]

He could be on to something with the either foot part.

In what way?

 

[Aucklander]

In what way?

"to hit a target at 50m either foot with a leather footy, running full pace, under extreme physical pressure - that's not for mere mortals."

I think that's a pretty fair comment. You need to be pretty special to do stuff like that.

 

[Dimenhydrinate]

"to hit a target at 50m either foot with a leather footy, running full pace, under extreme physical pressure - that's not for mere mortals."

I think that's a pretty fair comment. You need to be pretty special to do stuff like that.

Yeah, and how many AFL players can actually do that consistently?

 

[Barkly St End]

Yeah, and how many AFL players can actually do that consistently?

Looking through my team yesterday, I'd say around 14 of 22 could do it consistently (in match conditions, that's the important bit).

But please note, in these sorts of discussion (where soccer fans exaggerate the primacy of the skill levels in their game), they generally are not talking about the positions of keepers and central defenders, which is 27.272727% of each and every team.

In fact, this is the most significant part of the discussion for me.

While I am ready to admit that a range of attributes are necessary to play aussie rules (athleticism, pace, stamina, mental toughness, aggression, fierce determination, competitveness, strength, etc)

Soccer fans often undersell their game by focusing too much on technique.

Technique is nothing more than a foundation stone, important, but it is just the starting point - focus too much on that and in no way can you build a championship winning team.

 

[Aucklander]

Yeah, and how many AFL players can actually do that consistently?

I would say very few could do that consistently. It would be interesting to get some factual info though.

 

[.Shotties.]

At Sydney I could think of Malceski, O'Keefe, Goodes and Hannebery. Depends what your definition of "consistently" is. If it's just the pass mark of 50% then you could add a fair number more.

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

...

In fact, this is the most significant part of the discussion for me.

While I am ready to admit that a range of attributes are necessary to play aussie rules (athleticism, pace, stamina, mental toughness, aggression, fierce determination, competitveness, strength, etc)

Soccer fans often undersell their game by focusing too much on technique.

Technique is nothing more than a foundation stone, important, but it is just the starting point - focus too much on that and in no way can you build a championship winning team.

That's where Aussie Rules fans just don't get it, and never will get it.

To be a really good footballer needs (my estimation):
* 50% technique
* 25% tactical
* 12.5% mental/psychological
* 12.5% conditioning/fitness

Xavi Hernandez, Andreas Iniesta, Lionel Messi, Christiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres, Wayne Rooney are examples of excellent footballers and I'm sure none of them will ever win the 100m nor the 1500m.

What they have is TECHNIQUE & FOOTBALL NOUS (appreciation of space and awareness of options).

Arsene Wenger believes technique to be the most important attribute for a footballer. So much so, he has said ...

"if a player doesn't have good technique by the age of 13 he'll never have it".

It's why the "small side games" are emphasised for young footballers - you have to be able to caress the ball, hold it and pass it.

My observations also say the really good Aussie Rules players have great technique; strength & conditioning is a bonus - Greg Williams, Darren Jarman, Brian Wilson, Brad Hardie are some examples of true technical AFL playes.

 

[harmesy 37]

That's where Aussie Rules fans just don't get it, and never will get it.

To be a really good footballer needs (my estimation):
* 50% technique
* 25% tactical
* 12.5% mental/psychological
* 12.5% conditioning/fitness

I got this far in your post and realised that when you mentioned the word "footballer" you weren't referring to an Australian footballer, but those that play English football.


I stopped reading from that point onwards as it was too confusing. If I went onto a soccer website and kept calling Australian football "football" and soccer "English football" on their website I am sure many of them would be confused.


All the media outlets and soccer zealots who think that they have a right to pull Australians, Canadians and Americans in line with the "world order" need to settle down and show a bit of respect.

 

[Barkly St End]

That's where Aussie Rules fans just don't get it, and never will get it.

Christiano Ronaldo, Fernando Torres, Wayne Rooney are examples of excellent footballers and I'm sure none of them will ever win the 100m nor the 1500m.

Actually I'm starting to wonder whether you get it?

These blokes possess superb athletic qualities - what are you on about?

Also, when you talk about someone like Ronaldo - you're talking about the complete package - a fantastic athlete - on top of that, he often shows his willingness, determination and strength to get to a header in a crowded box and meet it like a freight train.

Don't worry about Ronaldo - he has it all - but I think you have been duped by the cossack dancing - forget that - his armoury is much, much more than that.

Also, who was the real hero of Italy's world cup win? I'd say it was Materazzi. He came as the 4th best central defender, and ended up playing a key role. Leading scorer, scored in the final and nailed a penalty - you be assured that he traded on his brute strength and sheer intimidation factor (didn't take him too much to put Zizou off his game either).

Who are our top players at the moment? In terms of form and producing at the highest level, you'd have to say they'd be Timmy and Schwarzer.

Would you define either as a "technical" player? I wouldn't.

In fact, Timmy would be close to the least technical player at SA this year.

But he has far more important attributes than technique - or didn't you know that?

 

[JD-Roo]

Looking through my team yesterday, I'd say around 14 of 22 could do it consistently (in match conditions, that's the important bit).

From an oppostion perspective I'd push that up to about 18 of your 22 on Saturday.

Admittedly we didn't really help your arguement much about kicking under pressure - we couldn't catch you.

 

[Barkly St End]

From an oppostion perspective I'd push that up to about 18 of your 22 on Saturday.

Admittedly we didn't really help your arguement much about kicking under pressure - we couldn't catch you.

ah JD - what can I say to that? you're taking it well!

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

Actually I'm starting to wonder whether you get it?

These blokes possess superb athletic qualities - what are you on about?

Also, when you talk about someone like Ronaldo - you're talking about the complete package - a fantastic athlete - on top of that, he often shows his willingness, determination and strength to get to a header in a crowded box and meet it like a freight train.

Don't worry about Ronaldo - he has it all - but I think you have been duped by the cossack dancing - forget that - his armoury is much, much more than that.

Also, who was the real hero of Italy's world cup win? I'd say it was Materazzi. He came as the 4th best central defender, and ended up playing a key role. Leading scorer, scored in the final and nailed a penalty - you be assured that he traded on his brute strength and sheer intimidation factor (didn't take him too much to put Zizou off his game either).

Who are our top players at the moment? In terms of form and producing at the highest level, you'd have to say they'd be Timmy and Schwarzer.

Would you define either as a "technical" player? I wouldn't.

In fact, Timmy would be close to the least technical player at SA this year.

But he has far more important attributes than technique - or didn't you know that?

You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is Ronaldo et al have super technique and they may/may not be good athletes.

Put it this way. If you take away the non-technical qualitites of Ronaldo et al, they would still be world-class footballers.

The only reason many Aussie Rules guys are successful is b/c they are built like gorillas.

I wonder how good Riewoldt would be if he were 6-8 inches shorter?

Riewoldt's kicking technique is absolutely shocking; Koschitzke, Roughead and Franklin also have terrible technique. And, they're all considered to be top forwards in Aussie Rules!

If a player can't kick a ball, he would NEVER make it to the elite level as a REAL footballer.​

 

[.Shotties.]

The only reason many Aussie Rules guys are successful is b/c they are built like gorillas.

Kirk, Harvey, Mitchell, Crawford, Paul Kelly, Bartel, J Selwood, Ablett Jnr, Rich, hell, most of any teams midfield brigade would disagree with you.

Riewoldt's kicking technique is absolutely shocking; Koschitzke, Roughead and Franklin also have terrible technique. And, they're all considered to be top forwards in Aussie Rules![/CENTER]

Koschitzke is considered a top forward?

 

[Barkly St End]

You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is Ronaldo et al have super technique and they may/may not be good athletes.

Put it this way. If you take away the non-technical qualitites of Ronaldo et al, they would still be world-class footballers.

This is the point, you can't take it away, it's there, and it's integral to his powers as a top tier footballer.

As I said, ignore the cossack dancing - Ronaldo is the complete package, and you can be assured that his "non-technical qualities" are every bit as important as anything else in putting him at the very top of the heap.

Similarly, someone like Fabregas - could he be the dominating player that he is if wasn't able to cover the ground he does each and every game, over and over?

He covers distances that come close to the AFL average - which is pretty good for a soccer player.

In short, no.

 

[Barkly St End]

"to hit a target at 50m either foot with a leather footy, running full pace, under extreme physical pressure - that's not for mere mortals."

I think that's a pretty fair comment. You need to be pretty special to do stuff like that.

Thanks.

To put that into some sort of conext (kicking under extreme physical pressure), and having done extensive coaching in non-aussie rules regions, I can confidently say that if I were allowed to use nothing more than my little finger, I could put most loud mouths you read on these sorts of forums off their kicking if it came down to a test. (e.g. here's a footy, a few metres outside the 50, get as close as you want to the 50, have a shot, and I'm allowed to use my little finger to exert physical pressure on the kicker)

 

[mattah]

You are entitled to your opinion, but the fact is Ronaldo et al have super technique and they may/may not be good athletes.

Put it this way. If you take away the non-technical qualitites of Ronaldo et al, they would still be world-class footballers.

I think this is a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of examples of players who possess great skill but don't have the physical attributes or determination to make it as a footballer. Ronaldo is amazing because he has skill as well as speed and strength. Couple that with his natural confidence and determination and you get a complete footballer.

The only reason many Aussie Rules guys are successful is b/c they are built like gorillas.

By this logic all blokes built like gorillas should be good footballers. Unfortunately that doesn't hold true. It turns out you need a combination of factors. Reiwoldt for example has fantastic endurance, speed, strong hands, courage and determination. His kicking isn't great, but it's servicable enough that it doesn't hugely undermine the influence he can have on a game.

Full disclosure, I've played soccer most of my adult life, including when I was in the UK, and enjoy watching it. I think it takes a higher skill level to play soccer at the top level, but ultimately I think AFL is the better game.

With regards to the skill argument I think you have to take into account that a lot of what you are talking about is explained purely because of the size of the talent pool and the leagues you watch. If you watch the top leagues (EPL, La Liga etc) drawing all the best talent from all over the world, you will see the players with the best skill on display. With AFL, you are watching the top league in the world (the only one), but the talent on display is drawn only from a very small pool. If AFL was played all over the world the top teams would be full of players like Ablett, Judd, Goodes etc.

 

[Barkly St End]

I think this is a ridiculous statement. There are plenty of examples of players who possess great skill but don't have the physical attributes or determination to make it as a footballer. Ronaldo is amazing because he has skill as well as speed and strength. Couple that with his natural confidence and determination and you get a complete footballer.



By this logic all blokes built like gorillas should be good footballers. Unfortunately that doesn't hold true. It turns out you need a combination of factors. Reiwoldt for example has fantastic endurance, speed, strong hands, courage and determination. His kicking isn't great, but it's servicable enough that it doesn't hugely undermine the influence he can have on a game.

Full disclosure, I've played soccer most of my adult life, including when I was in the UK, and enjoy watching it. I think it takes a higher skill level to play soccer at the top level, but ultimately I think AFL is the better game.

With regards to the skill argument I think you have to take into account that a lot of what you are talking about is explained purely because of the size of the talent pool and the leagues you watch. If you watch the top leagues (EPL, La Liga etc) drawing all the best talent from all over the world, you will see the players with the best skill on display. With AFL, you are watching the top league in the world (the only one), but the talent on display is drawn only from a very small pool. If AFL was played all over the world the top teams would be full of players like Ablett, Judd, Goodes etc.

Agree with all of that - good post.

It's undoubtedly true that the numbers available go to the heart of a lot of answers to questions such as, why would the AFL go chasing an athlete from another sport?

Because the number of elite athletes to service potentially 20 clubs in the future is not fully serviced within Australia - the AFL is forced to look at overseas options - and it will succeed.

Why?

Check out this clip of hurling star Sean Og O'Hailpin, older brother of Setanta. Check out from around 3:30, that shows Setanta's desire to make it in AFL. This is precisely the sort of bloke the AFL is after: athletic (extremely so), mentally tough, determined to succeed, willing to walk over broken glass to rise to the challenge of being a professional footballer. Be assured - there are other Setantas through out the world - we need to find them around the age of 16, and we can offer them the life of a professional footballer with financial awards that more than match their bankrupt local domestic comp (whatever it is that they are playing).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lLIHergrbo&feature=related

 

[FIGJAM_1964]

... we need to find them around the age of 16, and we can offer them the life of a professional footballer with financial awards that more than match their bankrupt local domestic comp (whatever it is that they are playing).

If a person can take up Aussie Rules at the age of 16 and wtill make it to the most elite level of Aussie Rules in the world (I still laugh when I type that!!), it is further evidence that Aussie Rules requires minimal technical attributes.

According to those involved with develpment of elite sportsmen, if a person doesn't have "ball technique" by age 13, he will never have achieve the highest levels in that sport.

Former Hawthorn coach, Peter Schwab tells of the time he had an audience with Manchester United's legendary manager, Sir Alex Ferguson.

Schwab asked Ferguson for advice on how to teach a recruit to improve his poor kicking technique.

Ferguson looked at Schwab incredulously and simply stated:

if a player can't kick he would never be recruited into the club!​

 

[Barkly St End]

If a person can take up Aussie Rules at the age of 16 and wtill make it to the most elite level of Aussie Rules in the world (I still laugh when I type that!!), it is further evidence that Aussie Rules requires minimal technical attributes.

According to those involved with develpment of elite sportsmen, if a person doesn't have "ball technique" by age 13, he will never have achieve the highest levels in that sport.

Former Hawthorn coach, Peter Schwab tells of the time he had an audience with Manchester United's legendary manager, Sir Alex Ferguson.

Schwab asked Ferguson for advice on how to teach a recruit to improve his poor kicking technique.

Ferguson looked at Schwab incredulously and simply stated:

if a player can't kick he would never be recruited into the club!​

Once again - pure exaggeration.

Niall Quinn played at the highest level with a Gaelic football background.

Hans-Peter Briegel, a famous German international, came from an athletics background.

In fact, there are plenty of high paid soccer players in Europe who DO NOT come from an asscociation football background.

As it happens, in our game, we have a wider range of attributes that make for a successful professional, and these attributes can be found in a range of sports.

 

[mighty tiges]

Apples and oranges trying to compare Aussie Rules and Soccer kicking techniques.

First of all the balls are a different shape obviously so the physics of each is completely different. A Sherrin being oval has only two stable rotational axes despite it being a 3D object - pitch (drop punt) and roll (torpedo). The yaw axis is unstable (helicopter punt). The new Sherrins are also pumped up to be fairly hard these days (that's what it feels like anyway). You can NOT just kick them as hard as possible as if you miss the sweet spot the ball will easily go off the side of the boot. A bit like trying to hit a golf ball too hard and it slices off the club. You need to time you kicking action to maintain control when footpassing.

A soccer ball being round has no preferred directional axes. So you need to use the side of your foot to have greater surface area contact to maintain control when footpassing. The round ball though because it's symmetrical in all radial directions it is easier to spin and make it dip and curve in the air. It's simply Archimedes principle which Warney also uses when leg-spin bowling and what enables planes to fly. You put spin on the ball a certain way depending on which way you want the ball to dip and curve and with enough velocity you create a pressure difference on either side of the ball (one with the spin; the other against) which creates a net force that moves the ball theway you want in the air.

Sherrins can also move in the air but the oval shape makes it far less an exact science and more difficult. It's why Stevie Johnson and Mooney now prefer to face the centre of the ground to open up the goal face when taking acute angle shots at goal rather than face the goal and go for the old fashion banana. Add to that modern footballers deliberately grubbering the ball along the ground to use the multiple bounces to make the ball "curve" from tight angles around and through goalposts. Once again not an exact science so takes ages to perfect such a skill.

Apart from the shaped balls, it's also a lot easier to hit targets when the defenders can't use their arms/hands to spoil, smother or intercept passes. Being able to use your arms gives you around an extra metre reach. It's what made Dustin Fletcher such a top defender for 18 years with his go-go gadget long arms. Then there's trying to kick accurately while you're full-bodied tackled to the ground.

Conversely Soccer doesn't have the "mark" so unless there's a free kick awarded then players don't get the opportunity to gain possession and an opponent not being allowed to dispossess you. So you need to be able to maintain possession on the ball. Hence the step overs, backheels, making your opponent think the ball is where it ain't, etc using all parts of your foot to maintain control and possession of the ball and create space for yourself.

Apples and oranges people. Apples and oranges!