We don't need a friggen rebuild

[Madtiger2006]

Surely there are some here with a bit of common sense
Wasn't it plain obvious we didn't pick a forward line last Saturday? We only had 2 natural forwards Nahas and Reiwoldt. Do you expect Oakleigh Nicholls and Simmonds to form a potent forward line. Simmonds is slow as a snail, Oakleigh Nicholls doesn't know where to lead and has tunnel vision. That's 2 cylinders gone from a V8. Everytime we went forward we were useless and we can't rely on just Reiwoldt and Nahas. How often did we kick to a congested forward line? That's not the midfielders fault, it's the forwards who stand in the wrong spots. It's very easy to flood a scattered forward line. We looked very promising against North and Sydney, then as soon as we lost Richo and dropped was Morton, our forward line was useless. How was Morton supposed to outmark Ted Richards when the ball is kicked long down to Richo territory. Big mistake dropping Morton.

Morton knows where to go as a forward and where to stand. We need to have a team up forward who all know how to play as forwards. I'll keep demanding Hughes to be played at FF. Hughes and Morton are very important players to our forward 6. Cotchin will struggle to run out a game in the middle and his class would be a must on a forward flank. Another mistake was dropping Patto and bringing in Simmo. Graham and Patto were doing a pretty good job the previous 2 weeks. But then we decide to bring back Simmo and we are back to our style of crap we showed against Melbourne. It's a real pity Simmo kicked 4 goals because he'll keep his place. I sure hope we bring back Thursty this week too. We have enough players to form a strong 22 but injuries and wrong decisions in the coaching department have really stuffed up the balance of our side and this is why we are playing inconsistent footy.

The defence showed what they can do last year with a good balance. Thursty must play FB permanently. Interrupted preseason, quiet Round 1. Dropping him was a mistake. This meant we played turnover players such as King in defence. Once King was gone we started to improve. But on Saturday we missed Thursfield. Moore is not a KPP. I'd prefer Thursty, Mcguane and Rance as the 3 talls. Our defence and midfield have not let us down in the last 3 weeks. Our choice of forward line let us down this week. We need to build a forward line around Morton, Nahas, Reiwoldt, Hughes, Cotchin, Patto, Post, Lids etc. A team within a team who will gel together and will have some sort of system worked out with the right amount know how and skill to play as forwards. A forward line that creates space and targers for the midfield to actually kick to.

We need the right balance and some fine tuning. We never play the correct 22. We usually have a weak link in defence and 1 or 2 up forward. Injuries haven't helped but for once I'd like to see the perfect 22 on the park and not just 18 because the other 4 will bring it all undone

 

[_RT_]

Not sure if people are talking complete rebuilds, more a change of direction. That side I put up in my thread shows that there is a good base to build on but for it to become a genuine contender we need to find more kids to come in that can become 10 year 200 gamers, instead of list cloggers who take up spots and do nothing.

 

[Goldust]

Surely there are some here with a bit of common sense
Wasn't it plain obvious we didn't pick a forward line last Saturday? We only had 2 natural forwards Nahas and Reiwoldt. Do you expect Oakleigh Nicholls and Simmonds to form a potent forward line. Simmonds is slow as a snail, Oakleigh Nicholls doesn't know where to lead and has tunnel vision. That's 2 cylinders gone from a V8. Everytime we went forward we were useless and we can't rely on just Reiwoldt and Nahas. How often did we kick to a congested forward line? That's not the midfielders fault, it's the forwards who stand in the wrong spots. It's very easy to flood a scattered forward line. We looked very promising against North and Sydney, then as soon as we lost Richo and dropped was Morton, our forward line was useless. How was Morton supposed to outmark Ted Richards when the ball is kicked long down to Richo territory. Big mistake dropping Morton.

Morton knows where to go as a forward and where to stand. We need to have a team up forward who all know how to play as forwards. I'll keep demanding Hughes to be played at FF. Hughes and Morton are very important players to our forward 6. Cotchin will struggle to run out a game in the middle and his class would be a must on a forward flank. Another mistake was dropping Patto and bringing in Simmo. Graham and Patto were doing a pretty good job the previous 2 weeks. But then we decide to bring back Simmo and we are back to our style of crap we showed against Melbourne. It's a real pity Simmo kicked 4 goals because he'll keep his place. I sure hope we bring back Thursty this week too. We have enough players to form a strong 22 but injuries and wrong decisions in the coaching department have really stuffed up the balance of our side and this is why we are playing inconsistent footy.

The defence showed what they can do last year with a good balance. Thursty must play FB permanently. Interrupted preseason, quiet Round 1. Dropping him was a mistake. This meant we played turnover players such as King in defence. Once King was gone we started to improve. But on Saturday we missed Thursfield. Moore is not a KPP. I'd prefer Thursty, Mcguane and Rance as the 3 talls. Our defence and midfield have not let us down in the last 3 weeks. Our choice of forward line let us down this week. We need to build a forward line around Morton, Nahas, Reiwoldt, Hughes, Cotchin, Patto, Post, Lids etc. A team within a team who will gel together and will have some sort of system worked out with the right amount know how and skill to play as forwards. A forward line that creates space and targers for the midfield to actually kick to.

We need the right balance and some fine tuning. We never play the correct 22. We usually have a weak link in defence and 1 or 2 up forward. Injuries haven't helped but for once I'd like to see the perfect 22 on the park and not just 18 because the other 4 will bring it all undone

See bold

On these (bold) points I agree.
But - and not that I mind - you have to concede that you have just brought down the curtain on the career of one JON.
It's already been established he ain't a midfielder and his poor decision making and poor skills rule him out of a backline gig.
The forward line is the only place he has shown a semblance of having clue.
I haven't been taken by JON like many here - I think he's been average since earning a recall, but looks decent as his initial seven or eight games were extremely poor.
But it's forward line or bust for him.

Agree with Morton, but think again you need to concede the boy was coasting and needed a wake-up call. He'll be back as early as this week. You won't find a bigger supporter of his on here than me, but his demotion was both necessary and warranted. No one is above being dropped after a few shockers!!! Not Morton, not Simmonds, not King, not Hughes!!!!

Thursfield's handling this season has been a pure disgrace and would send Wallace packing on this decision alone. It's non-sensical.
I thought Schulz too took some signnificant stridesdown back last year ... what did Wallace do .. send him forward!!!
A chance now with Rance down to send Schulz back down back!!!

 

[Bojangles17]

No, I dont think so either, just completely gut the joint and restump it, we'll be right

 

[krustyman]

seriously they need a complete rebuild especially up forward, because they are going nowhere fast and can hardly kick enough goals to cause any concerns to other side. all the other sides appear to have passed them in most areas, as the results on the board have shown so far.

anyone think that they will suddenly explode is kidding themselves.

 

[Sausage roll]

See bold

On these (bold) points I agree.
But - and not that I mind - you have to concede that you have just brought down the curtain on the career of one JON.
It's already been established he ain't a midfielder and his poor decision making and poor skills rule him out of a backline gig.
The forward line is the only place he has shown a semblance of having clue.
I haven't been taken by JON like many here - I think he's been average since earning a recall, but looks decent as his initial seven or eight games were extremely poor.
But it's forward line or bust for him.

Agree with Morton, but think again you need to concede the boy was coasting and needed a wake-up call. He'll be back as early as this week. You won't find a bigger supporter of his on here than me, but his demotion was both necessary and warranted. No one is above being dropped after a few shockers!!! Not Morton, not Simmonds, not King, not Hughes!!!!

Thursfield's handling this season has been a pure disgrace and would send Wallace packing on this decision alone. It's non-sensical.
I thought Schulz too took some signnificant stridesdown back last year ... what did Wallace do .. send him forward!!!
A chance now with Rance down to send Schulz back down back!!!

I think I can safely say I called that one early!!

How did he and petified get another contract??

An absolute disgrace!

 

[Madtiger2006]

All we need is a final cleanout.
King
Mcmahon
Simmonds
Johnson
Bowden
Hislop
Brown
Oakleigh Nicholls
Schulz

If anything we may hold onto Hislop and one of either Brown or Bowden. But only 2 of the above players at most can be retained. But if Brown doesn't improve he'll be gone. I'd probably delist all of them. As Ruthless Tiger mentioned in another thread, we have a very promising team if we get them all on the park.

We have a defensive team of:

FB Tambo Thursty Newman
HB Mcguane Rance Polo

Not once have we seen these 6 together this year. I can see great things from this 6.

We have an attacking team of:

HF Cotchin Reiwoldt Collins
FF Morton Hughes Nahas

Connors needs to lift his discipline though and get in the team. Cotchin and Deledio should be rotating from midfield to forward flank so we always have that class player on the flank. We have Post and Putt coming through in a year or 2 as well.

We have a midfield team of:

FOLL Graham Deledio Foley
INT Patto Jackson Tuck Cousins

This is pretty much the midfield and the rotated midfield. I'm inclined to give Thomson a run in middle and replacing Tuck in the team soon.

C Moore Coughlan White
EMER Vickery Connors Thomson Polak

Moore has pace on the wing and good height. I'd keep Polak and pettifer on the list too

 

[Bojangles17]

we've got the guts of a fair side, an emerging midfield , solid back half and a promising ruck division...If we could jag a couple of forwards in the draft it would make the world of difference

 

[krustyman]

we've got the guts of a fair side, an emerging midfield , solid back half and a promising ruck division...If we could jag a couple of forwards in the draft it would make the world of difference

do you think the opposition are doing nothing, they are still a few step behind and they need a break through not regurgitating the same old draft picks!

 

[Darth_Tiger]

Surely there are some here with a bit of common sense
Wasn't it plain obvious we didn't pick a forward line last Saturday? We only had 2 natural forwards Nahas and Reiwoldt. Do you expect Oakleigh Nicholls and Simmonds to form a potent forward line. Simmonds is slow as a snail, Oakleigh Nicholls doesn't know where to lead and has tunnel vision. That's 2 cylinders gone from a V8. Everytime we went forward we were useless and we can't rely on just Reiwoldt and Nahas. How often did we kick to a congested forward line? That's not the midfielders fault, it's the forwards who stand in the wrong spots. It's very easy to flood a scattered forward line. We looked very promising against North and Sydney, then as soon as we lost Richo and dropped was Morton, our forward line was useless. How was Morton supposed to outmark Ted Richards when the ball is kicked long down to Richo territory. Big mistake dropping Morton.

Morton knows where to go as a forward and where to stand. We need to have a team up forward who all know how to play as forwards. I'll keep demanding Hughes to be played at FF. Hughes and Morton are very important players to our forward 6. Cotchin will struggle to run out a game in the middle and his class would be a must on a forward flank. Another mistake was dropping Patto and bringing in Simmo. Graham and Patto were doing a pretty good job the previous 2 weeks. But then we decide to bring back Simmo and we are back to our style of crap we showed against Melbourne. It's a real pity Simmo kicked 4 goals because he'll keep his place. I sure hope we bring back Thursty this week too. We have enough players to form a strong 22 but injuries and wrong decisions in the coaching department have really stuffed up the balance of our side and this is why we are playing inconsistent footy.

The defence showed what they can do last year with a good balance. Thursty must play FB permanently. Interrupted preseason, quiet Round 1. Dropping him was a mistake. This meant we played turnover players such as King in defence. Once King was gone we started to improve. But on Saturday we missed Thursfield. Moore is not a KPP. I'd prefer Thursty, Mcguane and Rance as the 3 talls. Our defence and midfield have not let us down in the last 3 weeks. Our choice of forward line let us down this week. We need to build a forward line around Morton, Nahas, Reiwoldt, Hughes, Cotchin, Patto, Post, Lids etc. A team within a team who will gel together and will have some sort of system worked out with the right amount know how and skill to play as forwards. A forward line that creates space and targers for the midfield to actually kick to.

We need the right balance and some fine tuning. We never play the correct 22. We usually have a weak link in defence and 1 or 2 up forward. Injuries haven't helped but for once I'd like to see the perfect 22 on the park and not just 18 because the other 4 will bring it all undone

i would say that one good game out of 7 is not inconsistent - i would say that is pretty consistently bad.

 

[Darth_Tiger]

actually i am loving this thread. vintage madtiger which we have not seen since the spud era. didnt know you still had it in you mate

 

[Madtiger2006]

i would say that one good game out of 7 is not inconsistent - i would say that is pretty consistently bad.

3 out of 7 actually

 

[Madtiger2006]

seriously they need a complete rebuild especially up forward, because they are going nowhere fast and can hardly kick enough goals to cause any concerns to other side. all the other sides appear to have passed them in most areas, as the results on the board have shown so far.

anyone think that they will suddenly explode is kidding themselves.

You think Mcguane is hopeless, so you really shouldn't be making comments on who is capable and who isn't

 

[Rosstickle]

3 out of 7 actually

Which ones where they exactly?

Kangaroos yes
Geelong maybe (they are ****ing unreal)

Which other game was good?

 

[krustyman]

You think Mcguane is hopeless, so you really shouldn't be making comments on who is capable and who isn't

said he was nothing special, whereas others say he is a world beater, his disposal isnt that good.

with the group of players they have it isnt going to happen. tigers are a step behind and need something to get them in front in the next few years, like fluke a few guns in the draft, while other clubs get the duds.

 

[Madtiger2006]

said he was nothing special, whereas others say he is a world beater, his disposal isnt that good.

with the group of players they have it isnt going to happen. tigers are a step behind and need something to get them in front in the next few years, like fluke a few guns in the draft, while other clubs get the duds.

If we delist 8 or 9 players I mentioned above and we elevate Nahas and Browne then we can focus on 2-3 strong hard skillful players plus another key position forward, a crumbing forward and a midfielder. We have to focus on hard players and further depth

 

[theyellowsash]

Which ones where they exactly?

Kangaroos yes
Geelong maybe (they are ****ing unreal)

Which other game was good?

not whole games but:

last 10 minutes against melbourne almost won it
first quater and a half against brisbane
3rd and a bit of 2nd and 4th quater against sydney

its always the inconsistency during the games/between quaters that kills us.

 

[folester41]

agree on the 9 mentioned, however cant see us delisting that many because of this draft. but really what are we going to get out of keeping these guys, get rid of all of them, try and trade them for anything, 4th and 5th rounders instead of making us use 6th and 7th round picks.

 

[Darth_Tiger]

sorry but you cant say a team is up and down when it is 1-6. we have been down all year and only played 1 good game. the geelong game we caught them when they were down, there is no way we would have been close if they had not been off thier own game. truth is (and i hate it as much as anyone) we have shown glimpses of good play this year but any team would have done that. fact is we have lost 6 out of 7. that is consistently bad.

 

[Goldust]

All we need is a final cleanout.
King
Mcmahon
Simmonds
Johnson
Bowden
Hislop
Brown
Oakleigh Nicholls
Schulz

If anything we may hold onto Hislop and one of either Brown or Bowden. But only 2 of the above players at most can be retained. But if Brown doesn't improve he'll be gone. I'd probably delist all of them. As Ruthless Tiger mentioned in another thread, we have a very promising team if we get them all on the park.

We have a defensive team of:

FB Tambo Thursty Newman
HB Mcguane Rance Polo

Not once have we seen these 6 together this year. I can see great things from this 6.

We have an attacking team of:

HF Cotchin Reiwoldt Collins
FF Morton Hughes Nahas

Connors needs to lift his discipline though and get in the team. Cotchin and Deledio should be rotating from midfield to forward flank so we always have that class player on the flank. We have Post and Putt coming through in a year or 2 as well.

We have a midfield team of:

FOLL Graham Deledio Foley
INT Patto Jackson Tuck Cousins

This is pretty much the midfield and the rotated midfield. I'm inclined to give Thomson a run in middle and replacing Tuck in the team soon.

C Moore Coughlan White
EMER Vickery Connors Thomson Polak

Moore has pace on the wing and good height. I'd keep Polak and pettifer on the list too

Sadly you overlook one fact. You've just delisted nine players - roughly one quarter of our list.
Cast your eye over our recent draft history - say seven or eight years.
We've struggled in most years to get two what you'd term upper ecehelon players (the JON, Hughes, casserley draft for a variety of reasons has tossed up zero to this point and probably 2 out of 4 from 07 look like being something).
You think we're going to come up with even four or five, let alone nine decent picks, in what is widely regarded as not a deep draft.
Been said before ... it's a lousy time to suck as an AFL team ... and a lousy time to be relying on the draft.
I suggest someone get cracking and start putting some work into some players!!! We're likely stuck with the bulk of 'em!!!

 

[_RT_]

Sadly you overlook one fact. You've just delisted nine players - roughly one quarter of our list.
Cast your eye over our recent draft history - say seven or eight years.
We've struggled in most years to get two what you'd term upper ecehelon players (the JON, Hughes, casserley draft for a variety of reasons has tossed up zero to this point and probably 2 out of 4 from 07 look like being something).
You think we're going to come up with even four or five, let alone nine decent picks, in what is widely regarded as not a deep draft.
Been said before ... it's a lousy time to suck as an AFL team ... and a lousy time to be relying on the draft.
I suggest someone get cracking and start putting some work into some players!!! We're likely stuck with the bulk of 'em!!!

I posted in my thread that I would make the following cuts:

Johnson, Simmonds, Bowden, Brown, Schulz, Polak, Pettifer, King & possibly Richo. Again its 9 players but we can fill 3 of those positions by elevating Nahas, Browne and Gourdis from the rookie list. If we win 4 or less we get 3 picks in the first 20 and 4 from the first 40. Thats 7. All we would need then is 2 more picks to fill the list.

Use the rookie draft to get get the best non drafted kids possible, cherry pick a few from the VFL that have shown some form, not just at Coburg but the other sides as well.

Like yourself I also thought that just bringing in kids was flawed, but looking back we have managed to find a few gems through late picks and the rookie draft. So why not continue to bring in the kids when you think about it, bringing in 10-13 kids in a season will increase your chances of finding 4-5 players, perhaps even more. Its has to be better than the last few years where we've brought in 6-7 at most and found maybe 3 in total.

 

[Madtiger2006]

I posted in my thread that I would make the following cuts:

Johnson, Simmonds, Bowden, Brown, Schulz, Polak, Pettifer, King & possibly Richo. Again its 9 players but we can fill 3 of those positions by elevating Nahas, Browne and Gourdis from the rookie list. If we win 4 or less we get 3 picks in the first 20 and 4 from the first 40. Thats 7. All we would need then is 2 more picks to fill the list.

Use the rookie draft to get get the best non drafted kids possible, cherry pick a few from the VFL that have shown some form, not just at Coburg but the other sides as well.

Like yourself I also thought that just bringing in kids was flawed, but looking back we have managed to find a few gems through late picks and the rookie draft. So why not continue to bring in the kids when you think about it, bringing in 10-13 kids in a season will increase your chances of finding 4-5 players, perhaps even more. Its has to be better than the last few years where we've brought in 6-7 at most and found maybe 3 in total.

Surely you would keep Richo over Mcmahon. I also think it's worth holding onto Pettifer. We need depth in the small forward department. We only have Nahas and Morton. At least we know Pettifer can kick 40 goals in a season. I'd prefer Petts over JON. I wonder how Polak is progressing at Coburg also. But we will only need to draft about 6 players once we've elevated rookies as you said. We desperately need a Chapman/Rooke type

 

[Roachy8]

Sadly you overlook one fact. You've just delisted nine players - roughly one quarter of our list.
Cast your eye over our recent draft history - say seven or eight years.
We've struggled in most years to get two what you'd term upper ecehelon players (the JON, Hughes, casserley draft for a variety of reasons has tossed up zero to this point and probably 2 out of 4 from 07 look like being something).
You think we're going to come up with even four or five, let alone nine decent picks, in what is widely regarded as not a deep draft.
Been said before ... it's a lousy time to suck as an AFL team ... and a lousy time to be relying on the draft.
I suggest someone get cracking and start putting some work into some players!!! We're likely stuck with the bulk of 'em!!!

I do not subscribe to theories that we need 'total re-building'... but yes, somebody needs to 'put some work into' some players... and this would be the head coach and his panel!!

No one can deny that we were playing better late last year than we have this year.
No one can deny that we have a raft of players that have gone backwards this year instead of stepping up.
No one can deny that as a group we are leaderless & ruderless and this is being demonstrated by the lack of belief, confidence and structure in the way we are performing.

Where does this implosion come from?

We certainly do not have the playing group to challenge for a top 4 finish but we do have a group that should have been able to build on last year & a pre-season where we were apparently "flying" to improve our competitiveness and continue to improve this year.

Why did this fall apart?

What a monumental fall from grace we have seen in a few short weeks.

Almost to a man (woman) on this board pre-season we were at the very least expecting some improvement in 2009 which should have seen us step into the bottom of the 8... NO ONE I CAN RECALL was predicting this spectacular fall to rabble status. (If you did... kudos to you)

Clearly if a team, any team (doesn't have to be a sporting team... could be a business, a family, heck... even a government) needs to be well led to achieve and to continue to improve.

How often have we seen a change of leadership (& I include coaches as the most important leaders) that results in players who have been struggling suddenly rediscovering form and passion for the contest.

IT HAS TO START AT THE TOP!!!!

I believe we have the basic team structure to be challenging for finals (not top 2 by a long way) but certainly to be in the 7-8 mix so the fact that we are clearly the worst performing squad in the comp at the moment is a HUGE negative reflection on those that are there to lead, coach and motivate.

No major team re-buid required IMO, just a change of leadership (coach) & a strong, assertive & confident plan for success... this will draw out the required performance and commitment from the team.

When you get this, then you can also 'fine tune' the edges with recruiting and selection...

 

[turtle27]

I'm sort of seeing us bit like Hawthorn at the end of 2004. A good base of players, but still needing a good clean out, and some further additions take the team forward.

The initial additions certainly need to be forward line players you would think. We need to get a Roughead. The midfield still lacks another Cotchin, someone with real class about them. The back line looks reasonable at this stage, but we still lack that small forward stopper.

This year, whoever is in charge, I hope for gods sake they draft well, and clean out some deadwood. Next year, when we enter the GC17 draft, we seriously need to trade like demons to get our hands on a few of their picks.

 

[_RT_]

Surely you would keep Richo over Mcmahon. I also think it's worth holding onto Pettifer. We need depth in the small forward department. We only have Nahas and Morton. At least we know Pettifer can kick 40 goals in a season. I'd prefer Petts over JON. I wonder how Polak is progressing at Coburg also. But we will only need to draft about 6 players once we've elevated rookies as you said. We desperately need a Chapman/Rooke type

I would only keep players that can either add something or have a chance of being there once we're a contender or won't hinder the development of the kids. Unfortunately I think Richo would hinder the development of players if he was to continue to play simply because he is such a commanding presence on the field that the players will look for him regardless. This is not going to allow us to develop the likes of Hughes, Post, Vickery & Putt should they be given the chance up forward.

McMahon is on $330k or so next year. If we delist him we still have to pay him out and count that money in the cap. Better off keeping him for the final year and using him as backup for the kids.

Pettifer would need to get back into the side, play about 10 games and show that he is no longer the selfish me first team second player he has shown himself to be thus far. If he can't do that then so long, if he can then I would try and off load him in a trade/pick upgrade deal. Otherwise he remains like McMahon as backup for the kids.

LIke the sig says MT its about time this club became ruthless. If you're no good or even borderline and you're out of contract then you're out the door. We can't continue to hold onto players for 5-6 years in the hope that they can make it. If you're not established in the best 25 by time your 4th year is up then players should be delisted. No Ifs, Buts or Maybes. 4 seasons and 88 games should be more than enough time to tell whether a player is going to make it or not.