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^Eagle^

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May 9, 2003
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Yisrael
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OK, so now I know why my question wasn't taken seriously, perhaps you're not all a bunch of anti-semites. I now see how you see the situation: You think that the Palestinians have a right to the land of Israel, and we stole the land from them. We are now saying 'look, we're giving back the land we stole and they keep bombing us and asking us for more!'. But that's not true. We never stole the land. We have a right to the land

The last time an international comittee agreed upon a border for the state of Israel was in 1922, by the British imperialists, who promised us that little strip we call Israel today, as well as Gaza and Jordan. This were The British White Papers which were written to clarify the 'misconceptions' of the Balfour Declaration. The only Arabs living in the Israel area were living in bedowin tents and very well scattered, moving about constantly(and still do). At this time the Jews and Arabs were rarely in conflict with each other. There was some thievery, but that was about it. However, as the British Imperialists like to do, they began the conflict between the Jews and Arabs after centuries of being united either under Christian opression or together in Arab-ruled countries. This was done when the Brits then promised some King what we call Jordan(77% of what we have a right to). The Brits merely desired to maintain their presence in Palestine. Today we have peace with Jordan. Although we have a right to that 77%, our Government saw fit to give it up for peace. What we call Jordan today was actually going to be called Palestine, but the Brits knew that this would mean that there would be no cause for Arabs who wanted to destroy Israel to fight for.
1947 was when we made it official that we had a Jewish state. The Arabs weren't happy, after decades of fighting with us as a result of the British mandate. Then came '48.
For the next ~20 years the world sided with Israel. Why? Arafat kept on talking about 'death to the Jews', 'im going to finish what Hitler started', etc. The Brits told Arafat to stop doing this, and to improve his world image by using passionate protests, and creating the PLO in 1964. Before 1964 if you asked a person what a Palestinian was they would reply 'a Jew'. There were the Palestinians(Jews, Israelis) and there were the Arabs led by Arafat who wanted to Destroy Israel. You want proof? All the literature prior to 1964 refers to Jews as Palestinians. A movie called EXODUS best illustrates this-created in 1960, they refer to Jews as 'Palestinians' and what we today would call a Palestinian 'Arabs'. When Golda Meir got up in the United Nations and said that 'there is no such thing as the Palestinian people', she was not shouted down by the world. Why not? It was a given fact. There was no Palestinian people. And there is none. It is a false cause created to destroy the state of Israel, to which we have a RIGHT to be in. This is OUR land. It was a desert before Jewish settlers began being active and started establishing cites, forests, etc. The Arabs lived in bedowin tents moving around. In 1967 the Arab countries surrounded the tiny strip called Israel. Israel struck first and regained some of its land. In May 2000, the Government was willing to give 97% of Israel for peace(everything Arafat asked for, except for 'Rite of Return', a euphimism for the destruction of the state of Israel and the stripping of the land which is rightfully ours.). What was Arafat's response? A harsher negogiation? No. Intifada of September 2000.
There is no cycle of violence. There is no such thing. There is an opressor. There is an underdog. There are 20+ Arab countries surrounding a tiny strip called Israel. Israel fits 3 times into Tasmania. When looking on a map, a fly once flew onto it and covered the entire state of Israel.

What I am saying is that Israel has a RIGHT to it's land-it never stole anything. There have been Jews living there since our forefathers. We never left there. There has always been a Jewish presence there. It has always been OUR land, and we have always had a right to it. We have a right to control it, and of course allow people of other religions to come and visit their holy sites, that is of course if they stop bombing us.

The Palestinian's passionate protests are to make you sympathise with them. The worst thing the Israeli government did was hand over the Palestinian education system to Arafat in 1993. If you talk to an Arab over the age of ~22 they are decent people. Under 20, they want to kill you. And this is the problem we are now facing. A hostile media and a hostile generation being brought up. And Iran who want us dead(as well as you). And 20 other countries which don't want us to exist. The War in Iraq has nothing to do with the War in Israel. This isn't about terrorism. This is about what we have a right to.
 
^Eagle^ said:
What I am saying is that Israel has a RIGHT to it's land-it never stole anything. There have been Jews living there since our forefathers. We never left there. There has always been a Jewish presence there. It has always been OUR land, and we have always had a right to it.

How many Jews were there in Palestine compared to Christians at the start of the 20th century?

What makes you think you have more RIGHTS than they do?
 
Ok, I've swung from one side to the other, but you've done it twice now - wasn't it a few months ago that you were acknowledging Israel's culpability in the conflict? What's changed?

Incidentally - British imperialists drawing lines on maps can't give you a right to land that didn't belong to them, either.
 

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Didnt the Israelis destroy large tracts of Palestinian homes during and just after the creation of the state of Israel?

Why do you think that after almost 2 millennia you can just go back and expect to be granted land that your ancient ancestors once lived on?

I'm not against the state of Israel but I think they need to answer some questions (as do the Palestinians.) Why cant they have a joint state called Israel-Palestine with everyone living there granted equal rights before the law? (the Palestinians should be asked the same question.)
 
we've Got The Right To Choose And
there Ain't No Way We'll Lose It
this Is Our Life, This Is Our Song
we'll Fight The Powers That Be Just
don't Pick Our Destiny 'cause
you Don't Know Us, You Don't Belong
 
CharlieG said:
Ok, I've swung from one side to the other, but you've done it twice now - wasn't it a few months ago that you were acknowledging Israel's culpability in the conflict? What's changed?

Back then, Eagle had an epiphany where he seemed to finally intenalise how horrendosuly Israeli policies were impacting on ordinary Palesinians.

Now , months later, he seems alarmed at the Hamas policies of expungement of Jews from Israel and destruction of his state no matter how many Jews like him do a "mea culpa".

Incidentally - British imperialists drawing lines on maps can't give you a right to land that didn't belong to them, either.

One can only surmise that Eagles must wonder if he's back in a 1930s/40s denial /acquiesance scenario when he reads posts like this, Charlie.

Why can't you be honest enough, have the courage of what seems to be your convictions, and just tell Eagles straight out that he and his peple have no claim to the land and they should get out of there or face death and if it comes to that it's all right by you??

At least Hamas doesn't bullshyte. You do.
 
GuruJane said:
Back then, Eagle had an epiphany where he seemed to finally intenalise how horrendosuly Israeli policies were impacting on ordinary Palesinians.

Now , months later, he seems alarmed at the Hamas policies of expungement of Jews from Israel and destruction of his state no matter how many Jews like him do a "mea culpa".

I was asking Eagle.

One can only surmise that Eagles must wonder if he's back in a 1930s/40s denial /acquiesance scenario when he reads posts like this, Charlie.

Nice of you to come to the rescue, Jane, but I think that Eagle is old enough to speak for himself.

Why can't you be honest enough, have the courage of what seems to be your convictions, and just tell Eagles straight out that he and his peple have no claim to the land and they should get out of there or face death and if it comes to that it's all right by you??

Irony with a side of bull****. Tasty.

At least Hamas doesn't bullshyte. You do.

I thought you were too polite to evade the swear filter?

I wonder what Eagle thinks?
 
GuruJane said:
Now , months later, he seems alarmed at the Hamas policies of expungement of Jews from Israel

As opposed to Israelis building on land that isnt recognised as part of their country.
 

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How exactly are the Jews more entitled to Israel than the Welsh are to England?

Apart from the obvious God's chosen mob thingy.
 
medusala said:
How exactly are the Jews more entitled to Israel than the Welsh are to England?

Apart from the obvious God's chosen mob thingy.
wtf? i thought I was gods chosen, what with being an athiest and all.
 
medusala said:
As opposed to Israelis building on land that isnt recognised as part of their country.


the problem I have with this is with those who did build on that land. I am tipping the govt was the driver behind low cost housing estates for people that coulnt afford downtown Tel Aviv, so lets say you were an Israeli, would you set up your home to raise your family in that kind of paradise?
What were those people thinking? Oh, i get it, the govt guaranteed a nice peaceful existence. Ridiculous, really.
I mean, here you are, you are making a choice as to where you want to live and you pick that area? For what? its either you are totally stupid, or you are one of these morons that want to make a statement, which no one is listening to, not even your own govt. They have been used as pawns and they think they have a right? yes they do, they have a right accordng to their own and there are others that think they dont. The problem isnt who has a right, the problem is that everyone is offing themselves and both sides leader's dont know **** from clay on who has what right.


Lets face it, how on earth is any peace going to be achieved when on one hand an Israeli suggests he has a right because our forefathers lived here for thousands of years and on the other, you have palestinians susggesting same? Now after how long? How long has this f&$#ed up mess been going on for? Could it be that everyone has a right to this land and not one govt has discussed that avenue?
I am betting to the everyday Jew or Palestinian who just want to raise a family and live a half decent life, would kind of say, yeah, why should it affect me who lives down the street, as long as i know we are neghbours and we mow the lawns on the weekend etc, instead of those morons that masquerade as "leaders" continue to create one big sh-ite sandwch, why? because no one puts their weapons down to talk about ending their people's miseries.
Not one of those who lead come out and say, enough is enough, stop shooting and bombing, if anyone shoots or bombs they will be dealt with by both govts together. Then lets see what happens.
All they do is create more and more misery, to feed the the newspapers with "events" thinking the rest of the world's opinion is what they need to win over.
Get real, one dude suggests a high fence is the answer and the other moron suggests to erradicate.
Imagine if the one with the fence idea said, "listen fellas we dont want a fence, to keep your attacks at bay, but we need to talk, like "talk", not point the finger at each other via TV reports. ANd the other said, listen we were only trying to sound dramatic, we know our people love that kind of line about "erradicate", its used in the same essence the "turn your hair white" line is used, our people love that sort of line, so forget about that, and lets see if we can save more lives thatn we off. I mean that Hamas meathead suggests erradicate the Jews, how on earth does he expect to do that? Like does he expect the world is going tosit back and let him just do that? Or even more ridiculous, say it actually happens, then what banana? Like what is next? Oh, i get it, you are going to just move into a peaceful existence with eveyone in the world saying, awwww, look they have found their home? LMAO, f*&$cking morons the lot of them.

ANd the people in the middle think they are lead by the wise? LMAO. ;)
 
CharlieG said:
I was asking Eagle.

Nice of you to come to the rescue, Jane, but I think that Eagle is old enough to speak for himself.

I am very mindfull of the fact that in the 30s and 40s nice ordinary people like you and I turned a blind eye to what was happening to the Jews in Europe.

Today if the Arabs fell on Israel and slaughtered them all it would clearly be the same. Many people on this board would relish it.

One doesn't score many brownie points for pointing out the Israeli/Jewish point of view. Eagle doesn't have many friends on this board.

But that's why I try and make a point of letting him and others know they are not alone. I call it decency.
 
'Decency'?

If you had a decent bone in your body, Jane, you wouldn't attempt these smear campaigns that you're so fond of. You know very well that neither I nor any of the other posters on this board want anything of the sort. But because you're a gutless wonder who cares more about filthy point scoring than really discussing issues, you take the easy cop-out. Every. Single. Time.

Oh - and I'll repeat. I was asking Eagle. Apparently unlike yourself I actually believe that Eagle is capable of making up his own mind about things and speaking for himself.
 

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GuruJane said:
I am very mindfull of the fact that in the 30s and 40s nice ordinary people like you and I turned a blind eye to what was happening to the Jews in Europe.

Today if the Arabs fell on Israel and slaughtered them all it would clearly be the same. Many people on this board would relish it.
And some would do the same if the reverse happened

One doesn't score many brownie points for pointing out the Israeli/Jewish point of view. Eagle doesn't have many friends on this board.
Unfortunately you are right. Like the US ,Israel is rightly or wrongly seen as the ''mature'' one...and like any family, the mature one gets the blame for not having the sense to not react..guess its like footy where the reataliator cops the serve... I appreciate Eagles POV... makes me wonder if my opinions are strong or weak... end of the day I go with what makes me feel comfortable..and as a middle child I will find some way to blame the older one
 
GuruJane said:
I am very mindfull of the fact that in the 30s and 40s nice ordinary people like you and I turned a blind eye to what was happening to the Jews in Europe.

Today if the Arabs fell on Israel and slaughtered them all it would clearly be the same. Many people on this board would relish it.

One doesn't score many brownie points for pointing out the Israeli/Jewish point of view. Eagle doesn't have many friends on this board.

But that's why I try and make a point of letting him and others know they are not alone. I call it decency.
in part thats true GJ

but israel should never have been created to salve the collective guilt of the europeans.

two wrongs don't make a right.

now israel has been created sadly and wrongly IMO, the onus is on israel to redress the wrongs they have committed against the arabs just as the onus is on the palastinians to redress the wrongs done against the jews.

its a two way street. Sadly the ppl like GJ and eagle and the ppl like hammas only see the wrongs of the other side.
 
dan warna said:
in part thats true GJ

but israel should never have been created to salve the collective guilt of the europeans.

It wasn't as simple as that. The areas allotted to the Jewish state by the UN partition plan were the areas in which there was already a 50 per cent majority of jews and the rest was the Negev desert which was basically uninhabited.

And you have to ask - what should have been done with the Jews at the time?

now israel has been created sadly and wrongly IMO, the onus is on israel to redress the wrongs they have committed against the arabs just as the onus is on the palastinians to redress the wrongs done against the jews.

Which is what they attempted to do by recognising the PLO, signing the Oslo accords in 1993, withdrawing from Gaza, Jericho, then the west bank towns of Ramallah, Jenin, Hebron, Nablus, Bethehem etc.

Also in the 90s, they agreed to the construction of a Palestian National Parliament building in Abu Dis - a suburb of Jerusalem and to the construction of an international airport in Gaza, opened by Bill Clinton.

They completely revamped their education system in schools - de Zionising it - and teaching the Palestinian history for the first time.

Then in 2000 they made far reaching offers at Camp David and received nothing in return, not even an offer, except for the Intifada. We all know what happened after that.

btw in the 9s when the israelis were de-zionising their curriculum, the PLO, taking over Palestinian schools and media did just the opposite. They educated their children in crazed, savage Israel hate, just as Eagle pointed out, and laid the groundwork for the death and martyr cults of the second IntIfada.

its a two way street. Sadly the ppl like GJ and eagle and the ppl like hammas only see the wrongs of the other side.

I don't know about Eagle, but to say I've never seen the wrongs "of the othe side" is grossly untrue.

From the early days I was a supporter of the Left in Israel. And from 1993 - 2000 I was in the camp of the Israeli peace movement. If I'd lived in Israel I would have been a voter for Merezt - which is to the left of the Labor party there and which worked ceaselessly for a just Palestinian State.

But the political leadership of the Palestinians have never given up their ultimate dream which is not a just palestinian state, but the elimination of Israel itself. Now I don't think they ever will.
 

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