Welsh's Future - Apparantly has Re-signed.

[kirky]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

Don't have a problem with what the AFC is doing given Welsh has played the no. of games over past 7 years:-

2000 - 22 (of 22)
2001 - 18 (of 23)
2002 - 13 (of 25)
2003 - 10 (of 24)
2004 - 16 (of 22)
2005 - 23 (of 25)
2006 - 5 (of 24)

thats 107 games of possible 165 - he has only played 2/3rds of a season over a 7 year period. If I'm not mistaken, his injuries have all been soft tissue (no broken legs, arms etc) therefore that is not good enough.

The call from the AFC may in some be harsh but this is a business and there is no room for sentimentality.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

Cutting the level of his contract does not mean that we are prepared to jettison him. The Club is just being realistic in offering a contract the fits his output.
As a comparison at the beginning of the 2006 season how would the respective contracts for Scott Welsh, Scott Stevens and Kris Massie compare? I would guess that Scotty was getting at least double the other 2. If you were paying them on a performance based contract I would suggest that for 2006 Scott S and Kris would get at least 400% on top of ScottW.
Hence the club has probably tried to even out payments so that those who play will receive a better deal. It is probably a fact in AFL that you seem to be paid by how you played (or did not play) the previous year when getting your contract for future years. Obvious exceptions are young players who show promise for the future (e.g. Douglas).
Chin up Scott Welsh...put in a good season in 2007 and your rate will rise again.

um, I think you missed the point.

when you give someone a take it or leave it offer - it means you are prepared to jettison them. thus the 'leave it' part

 

[CaptainDangerfield]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I hope Welsh plays on but I won't be devastated if he decides to go elsewhere. His finals form, or lack of, may have raised a few eyebrows at the AFC.

 

[Mad Dog]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

call me odd - but the prospect of a "motivated Welshy" - or "a gap to be filled" excites me more than "more of the same".

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

thats 107 games of possible 165 - he has only played 2/3rds of a season over a 7 year period. If I'm not mistaken, his injuries have all been soft tissue (no broken legs, arms etc) therefore that is not good enough.

that makes no sense

 

[jenny61_99]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

Stiffy, I disagree with this theory about thinking we are not good enough, using Welsh as an indicator.

Welsh was as useless as **** on a ball when it really counted in the finals last year, and if we are going to pin our hopes on Scotty Welsh then we are well and truly behind the 8 ball. He is unreliable, inconsistent and injury prone. An out of form Kenny McGregor would have done a far better job against West Coast - if only he had played!!

Or a fit in form Roo would have made mincemeat out of Scotty's p isspoor effort in that match.

IMO the club has offered him what they have, because that's a fair reflection of what they think his current day worth is. Nothing more than that.

The fact that they are prepared to let him walk if that's what he prefers to do is once again a true indicator of the reduced value he holds in the clubs eyes.

And this, afterall, is a business. You don't continue to pay your employees at top dollar if they aren't performing (no matter what the circumstances). If every business continued to pay underperforming employees (ie. without consequences) then no bugger would perform because they know they'd still get paid! Scotty may be disappointed, but one would hope he is also realistic. Perform this year, and you'll get better rewarded next.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I have to say, I find it interesting what most consider "not performing". he had a very good 2005.

in 2006 he was injured for the most part - and no one will doubt he wasn't good when he did make it onto the park.

however, he was injured, or more to the point - sick. how many of you would be happy to be judged by the same standard?

My suspicion is that there must be more than that, perhaps an attitude thing or something? the club obviously has it's reasons, but lets not confuse those with simply being injured. this idea that being injured is "not performing" is just nuts.

 

[Mad Dog]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I have to say, I find it interesting what most consider "not performing". he had a very good 2005.

in 2006 he was injured for the most part - and no one will doubt he wasn't good when he did make it onto the park.

however, he was injured, or more to the point - sick. how many of you would be happy to be judged by the same standard?

My suspicion is that there must be more than that, perhaps an attitude thing or something? the club obviously has it's reasons, but lets not confuse those with simply being injured. this idea that being injured is "not performing" is just nuts.

agree with what your saying....but it must be said that when he did get on the park - his performances were substandard.

 

[GoOsH1]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I keep asking why you don't put him on a performance based contract? you get paid, if you play. Simple.
Is that not something adelaide have considered?

 

[Mad Dog]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I keep asking why you don't put him on a performance based contract? you get paid, if you play. Simple.
Is that not something adelaide have considered?

it's pretty much what has been done. Most contracts have a base vs performance weighting. All that's really happened here is that the weighting has changed in favour of performance.

 

[GoOsH1]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

it's pretty much what has been done. Most contracts have a base vs performance weighting. All that's really happened here is that the weighting has changed in favour of performance.

the quote I heard was that they offered 80k less? Do you think they've offered the same but said you'll have to play x number of games to get that amount?

I would put a guy on performance based contract too, if he was only able to play 5 games.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

Don't have a problem with what the AFC is doing given Welsh has played the no. of games over past 7 years:-

2000 - 22 (of 22)
2001 - 18 (of 23)
2002 - 13 (of 25)
2003 - 10 (of 24)
2004 - 16 (of 22)
2005 - 23 (of 25)
2006 - 5 (of 24)

thats 107 games of possible 165 - he has only played 2/3rds of a season over a 7 year period. If I'm not mistaken, his injuries have all been soft tissue (no broken legs, arms etc) therefore that is not good enough.

The call from the AFC may in some be harsh but this is a business and there is no room for sentimentality.

He did have a pretty bad case of OP, some shin splins, leg fractures, back injuries and soft tissue injuries over that 7 year period.

 

[Mad Dog]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

the quote I heard was that they offered 80k less? Do you think they've offered the same but said you'll have to play x number of games to get that amount?

I would put a guy on performance based contract too, if he was only able to play 5 games.

yes they've reported 80K less in base payments.

generally there is the opportunity to pick up greater match payments

 

[Stiffy_18]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

agree with what your saying....but it must be said that when he did get on the park - his performances were substandard.

True but when ever someone comes back from an injury they will take time to get into gear. Especially if its a longish term injury which Welsh had.

I think judging Welsh, Perrie and those guys on their late season form is somewhat unfair because when players come back from inuries they struggle for a period of time before they get their touch, timing and fitness back. IMHO that was the main problem with Welsh and Perrie late in the season.

 

[GoOsH1]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

yes they've reported 80K less in base payments.

generally there is the opportunity to pick up greater match payments

I think it's fair enough then, I would only expect a small amount if I was unable to play for my team, seems unfair to expect a full salary if you can only get on the park a few games a year. I would have thought most guys would feel that way

 

[AJ_No.4]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

True but when ever someone comes back from an injury they will take time to get into gear. Especially if its a longish term injury which Welsh had.

I think judging Welsh, Perrie and those guys on their late season form is somewhat unfair because when players come back from inuries they struggle for a period of time before they get their touch, timing and fitness back. IMHO that was the main problem with Welsh and Perrie late in the season.

I was thinking along the same lines. Lets hope Welshy sees sense and signs and he and the Pez have a big preseason.

 

[-VC-]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

True but when ever someone comes back from an injury they will take time to get into gear. Especially if its a longish term injury which Welsh had.

I think judging Welsh, Perrie and those guys on their late season form is somewhat unfair because when players come back from inuries they struggle for a period of time before they get their touch, timing and fitness back. IMHO that was the main problem with Welsh and Perrie late in the season.

No doubt about that. However, being such a regular occurence with Welsh I fully support the pay cut. I didn't expect him to come back and set the world on fire but all of these missed games has to come back and bite him at some point, as harsh as that may sound.

 

[GoSarge]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

True but when ever someone comes back from an injury they will take time to get into gear. Especially if its a longish term injury which Welsh had.

I think judging Welsh, Perrie and those guys on their late season form is somewhat unfair because when players come back from inuries they struggle for a period of time before they get their touch, timing and fitness back. IMHO that was the main problem with Welsh and Perrie late in the season.

Thats the nature of the beast though isnt it ? Supporters were upset at our capitulation to West Coast and they needed a scapegoat. Perrie and Welsh, were easy targets, Craig AND the umpires also copped it for our prelim final exit, warranted or not.

FWIW - I agree with you.

 

[marvin]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

call me odd - but the prospect of a "motivated Welshy" - or "a gap to be filled" excites me more than "more of the same".

I'm in total agreement.

I don't think it's just the bad run he's had physically too.

Remember mid-last year, Goody made a comment in a post-match interview about Welsh not having the greatest game till 3Q time but then fighting back and playing well in the final term, which wasn't normal for Welsh?

[not the exact quote]

I just think his stocks have dropped at the club, injury to Hentschel notwithstanding, since he signed his previous 2 year deal, and the current offer reflects that.

 

[jenny61_99]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I have to say, I find it interesting what most consider "not performing". he had a very good 2005.

in 2006 he was injured for the most part - and no one will doubt he wasn't good when he did make it onto the park.

however, he was injured, or more to the point - sick. how many of you would be happy to be judged by the same standard?

My suspicion is that there must be more than that, perhaps an attitude thing or something? the club obviously has it's reasons, but lets not confuse those with simply being injured. this idea that being injured is "not performing" is just nuts.

How he performed in 2005 is irrelevant. You can't pay someone based on performances of over 12 months ago. Doesn't make good business sense. We all know Welshy is injury prone (I liken him to Matty Liptak in some regards) and one good season in how many is not (and should not be) a guarantee of future payment. You are only as good as your current form, and based on this year, his current form has been poor. It makes perfect business sense to have the lad on a performance based contract. That is an incentive for him to perform well when he is on the park and to protect himself (through correct training and physio off the park) so that he can play more games.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

How he performed in 2005 is irrelevant. You can't pay someone based on performances of over 12 months ago.

erm, no. not nearly. by this logic, we should demote any woman who comes back from maternity leave to a more junior role. you cannot ignore the context of injury because it does not suit your viewpoint.

Doesn't make good business sense. We all know Welshy is injury prone (I liken him to Matty Liptak in some regards) and one good season in how many is not (and should not be) a guarantee of future payment.

sorry jenny, if your argument is that 2005 was his only good season, and not a reflection on his ability then this isn't going to go anywhere.

You are only as good as your current form, and based on this year, his current form has been poor.

yes, I agree. will you be pushing for Ben Hudson to be getting a reduced contract for 2007? he couldn't even make our team when he recovered

It makes perfect business sense to have the lad on a performance based contract. That is an incentive for him to perform well when he is on the park and to protect himself (through correct training and physio off the park) so that he can play more games.

you keep talking about business sense, but I'm not convinced you made your case.
do you work - if so, do you expect to get paid while you're sick, and do you expect to be penalised when you get back? what are you thoughts on the tenure status of academics, who return from sabbaticals?

it strikes me that you keep talking about "business sense" without applying any real life business examples. sick is not lack of performance per se.

 

[Crow-mo]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

I don't think it's just the bad run he's had physically too.

I think you're probably right, it would seem odd if it were just his injury problems.

 

[jenny61_99]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

erm, no. not nearly. by this logic, we should demote any woman who comes back from maternity leave to a more junior role. you cannot ignore the context of injury because it does not suit your viewpoint.



sorry jenny, if your argument is that 2005 was his only good season, and not a reflection on his ability then this isn't going to go anywhere.



yes, I agree. will you be pushing for Ben Hudson to be getting a reduced contract for 2007? he couldn't even make our team when he recovered




you keep talking about business sense, but I'm not convinced you made your case.
do you work - if so, do you expect to get paid while you're sick, and do you expect to be penalised when you get back? what are you thoughts on the tenure status of academics, who return from sabbaticals?

it strikes me that you keep talking about "business sense" without applying any real life business examples. sick is not lack of performance per se.

It is not just "sick" - it is a chronic under achievement due to injury which means when he returns FROM injury (which appears to be all the time) he under-performs (takes several weeks to "find his feet", then get's re-injured). The lad doesn't get sick... he injures himself. Now this could be because of bad luck, bad management or bad preparation or a combination of all of the above, but whatever it is, it is bad business to throw money down the drain on a non-performer. Provide the non-performer with incentives though and you could get him back to his previous best.

It is unfair to use Ben Hudson as an example (or women returning from maternity leave for that matter) as we had him for one season where he out-performed expectations and lost him for one season. He gets another chance based on that. Welsh, on the other hand, has had more bad seasons than good, and is also aging (which would further predispose him to injury). To just guarantee someone a certain pay level because that's what they always had, despite the fact that they haven't performed, is just ludicrous AND is poor business. Welsh was not asked to take a pay cut this season, based on his 2005 returns. Based on THIS season however, you could hardly expect him to receive the same remuneration for next year.

 

[macca23]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

Welsh was not asked to take a pay cut this season, based on his 2005 returns. Based on THIS season however, you could hardly expect him to receive the same remuneration for next year.

It's as simple as that.

Well argued Jenny.

 

[The Crows Truth]

Re: Could Welsh be our next victim ?

. Welsh was not asked to take a pay cut this season, based on his 2005 returnsBased on THIS season however, you could hardly expect him to receive the same remuneration for next year.

Game. Set. Match.