What has history taught us ?

[ata40]

This is what TW started with ;

OUT:
B:.... Hartigan.....Kelleway A..... Kelleway D
HB:.... Zantuck..... Gaspar..... Chaffey
C:.... Fleming..... Fiora..... Blumfield
HF:.... Hilton..... Marsh..... Rogers
F:.... Dragicevic..... Ottens..... Rodan
FOLL:.... Stafford..... Campbell..... Krakeur
INT:.... Roach……….Weller..... Houlihan..... Fletcher
.......Archibald..... Marsh..... Humm……Nicholls………Limbach

The last time the RFC tried to re-build from ground up was under Bartlett in 1988-1991. The Northey team of 1995 was KB’s.

There are so many parallels between now and the Bartlett era;

· the way that the draft hinders quick results in the same way it did back then.
· the way people focus on the Baniks and Lounders of this world and forget the other 8 or 10 good picks. No different to the Franklin/Tambling hysteria. Simple people so obsessed with only one piece of a much bigger jigsaw.
· the way both coaches went about developing a massive core group of midfielders that developed over time and together, but with lots of learning pain along the way.
· the never ending ferals quick to pull down everything as soon as the growing pains get too much.

KB in four years was able to develop a core team that included;
Free, Campbell, Knights, Lambert, Maxfield, Daffy, Nichols, Young, B Gale, Hogg, Pickering, Naish, Mitchell, Prescott, Turner and Mathew Clarke.

That was 16 players that should have been the core of a successful team for the rest of the decade.

Instead we panicked, sacked Bartlett and murdered the rebuilding plan.

New coach – changed administration, new plans, new direction and within a few years we had lost the core of the team, let alone the momentum.

Patterson, Sproule, Jewell, Jeans, Northey, Walls, Gieshen and Frawley didn't have a plan. They were too busy trying to pacify the ferals, looking over their shoulder waiting for the knife, overhearing about the next coup. The only people safe in these time are flawed players that are given an extra few years of camouflage at the expense of publicly humiliated coaches.


A new coach, a new direction, a new order a new blind faith. Another sledgehammer through the last 4 year re-rebuild in the name of an appetite for instant success that is insatiable and self cannibalizing. New assistant coaches, new recruiting plans, new game plans, new leadership groups all so very new yet to Richmond very old.

Lets make TW pay for having a plan and making some mistakes along the way. Lets make TW be the sole sacrifice for a team suffering a confidence meltdown that can be reversed if we all get behind him and follow the plan through. Lets start searching for the new white knight, a new messiah ready to solve 26 years of misery in one swoop.

Will it be Malthouse’s with the same bloodline as KB and Northey, the iconic Mathews with the same credentials as Alan Jeans, the untried Hardwick similar to the Geesh or a person so loathed and so “un Richmond” in Buckley akin to Robert Walls.

It is 2009, not even 4 and a qtr years into the first genuine rebuilding plan since 1989, are we really going to let history repeat?

 

[JSFish]

Yay, someone who knows what they're talking about. Top thread ata.

 

[Tigerballs]

Why does it take us 5 years to get half way through a rebuilding plan when other clubs do a whole rebuild in 3? Bad drafting and bad coaching in my opinion.

 

[PHX]

This thread will get far less respect than it deserves. Must stick fat, must not let the back room boys take over our club and make it a further shambles not only on field, but particularly off as well. Sack Terry Wallace now and this year will get so much worse as the media has succeeded and can then drive the tiger wagon that gets further lost for the rest of the year.

In five years, what Terry had promised has failed, but we can't afford to let our club look like a bunch of amateurs with rushed decisions to please those who want to get rid of Wallace simply for revenge instead of anything that will actually stabilise this football clubs professionalism for a change, while looking for options of the best successor. If and when that situation comes.

 

[Turbo Abe]

· the way that the draft hinders quick results in the same way it did back then.
· the way people focus on the Baniks and Lounders of this world and forget the other 8 or 10 good picks. No different to the Franklin/Tambling hysteria. Simple people so obsessed with only one piece of a much bigger jigsaw.

This is the thing you guys need to be most concerned about. Too many of these errors taking place over so many years.

In the same time Wallace has had, Al Clarkson has played two finals series and won a flag. He is building a dynasty - so it is not impossible. Richmond should be copying him!

 

[nut]

Pretty much what I said in another thread.

I remember the late eighties when we were broke. When KB started the first ever youth Policy, and just when he looked like producing a list worthy of finals. BANG we sack him. He blooded Free, Knighter, Campbell, Nichols, Lambert etc... and with the Flea our midfield looked great. Hoog was replacing Roach... things were looking up.
But some ****wit looks for a quick fix and we bring in a pensioner to coach for 1 season. I truly believe we were on the right track back then when KB was coach. Except the club derailed it's self again for a short term gain... Northey comes along and again internal back stabbing and fighting leeds to more instability, then Walls ( what the **** were we thinking??) Unleash the Giesh... and Frawley.

These short term gains have been the essence for why we cant build and then succeed. Finally we have had stability, structure and we have been able to set the foundations for a strong side across all lines. We have NOT looked for short term gains over this last period.

But again just like under KB, we get restless, opinions and ego's come to the fore and we lose our way. The supporters turn on it's own and again we become a rabble. Our support becomes divided and we become the joke of the AFL again...

Dean Laidley Impressed me a few years ago, when his side was under pressure for the way they played. He publicly announced that he would change the style of North to be a more attacking side, which was the first time I heard a coach admit that what he was doing wasn't working.

I think this is TW only way to save his job. Admit his faults, Identify our weakness's and explain a remedy to the public.

His faults have been to give the side a game plan that they can not execute. He must admit that he is coaching a game plan that is not suited to our group.

Our Weakness's are
1.That we dont have the required skills to play the style we are presently playing.
2. Our tackling, shepards and applying pressure off the ball is not up to standard.

The remedy.

For point 1 above. We start playing a more attacking, contested type game plan, utilising our Contested marking and our run with players. We go back to basics, man on man , give each player achievable roles that they can execute and hence gain confidence.

For 2. Reward the players that play tough and un-compromised football. Work on our competitiveness at the ball and player. Turn our perceived lack of pressure into our strength... build our confidence around this as well.


TW can turn it around.... but he needs to be honest and say it as it is.... and a bit of support wouldn't go astray.

 

[ata40]

This is the thing you guys need to be most concerned about. Too many of these errors taking place over so many years.

In the same time Wallace has had, Al Clarkson has played two finals series and won a flag. He is building a dynasty - so it is not impossible. Richmond should be copying him!

The old Hawthorn did it in 4 year fallacy again!

Clarkson has done a terrific job in his third and fourth year - but he has started with a far more mature list with better quality senior players.

Everybody thinks the Premiership was won totyally by Franklin&Roughead - the premiership team was built around 12 players who where 24 years +, in Mitchell, Bateman, Campbell, Crawford, Croad, Dew, Guera, Hodge, Ladson, Osborne, Sewell and Williams.

Compare that to our 7 off - Pettifer, Newman, Johnson, Brown, Simmonds, Richo and Bowden - of which only 2 or 3 would make any other AFL list!

 

[Captain_Brown_7]

Top thread ata

We cannot let history repeat itself and sack another coach. As you stated, it just wastes the past 4 years.

There is no doubt that TW can coach, the players are just not performing anywhere near where they should be.

If the board were smart they'd come out and say they have signed TW for another 2 years just to shut everyone the f**k up.

 

[Mario Speedwagon]

Yet more excuses and apologist crap for Wallace from delusional brightsiders. Terry would be proud of the spin and irrelevant, straw-clutching comparisons.

 

[theyellowsash]

i agree that sacking him now might hinder the rebuilding progress, which is the argument i would also use for keeping him. however i dont think he is good enough to coach and lead the team, or particularly develop and train the kids. i know some of this has to do with the development people but he would be the one telling them what attributes he wants his players to have. i also dont see in him the hardass that will pump up the players and give them a kick up the backside when need be.

 

[Captain_Brown_7]

Yet more excuses and apologist crap for Wallace from delusional brightsiders. Terry would be proud of the spin and irrelevant, straw-clutching comparisons.

Alright Mario, explain this to me....Why is TW to blame when there are 22 blokes out there who can't get the f**king job done???

And before you say "because he is in charge of picking the team", you tell me who you would've had on the park yesterday as opposed to who was out there...

 

[Madtiger2006]

March came out and said today that we will stick with Terry for the whole season. Good to hear

 

[Rayzorwire]

Great posta ata.

His faults have been to give the side a game plan that they can not execute. He must admit that he is coaching a game plan that is not suited to our group.

So Wallace should bring in a gameplan that won't beat the top sides nut, because too many players he currently has keep stuffing up a gameplan that will beat top sides?

That just amounts to aiming for mediocrity at best.

'These kids hate maths, science and english, they're no good at any of them, let's forget about teaching all that and instead of persevering and challenging them, we'll just drastically lower our standards to meet their capabilities.'

Is that what we want from the club?

 

[ARES]

Why is TW to blame when there are 22 blokes out there who can't get the f**king job done???

And before you say "because he is in charge of picking the team", you tell me who you would've had on the park yesterday as opposed to who was out there...

"Because he is in charge of picking the team", that is supposedly the best 22 for RFC, every week for the past 4 weeks!
We lot dont ask for miracles but as long time supporters we deserve a more competitive game!

RossLyon came out and after two years realised the game plan he had in mind (similar to Paul Roos) was NOT working and has changed it to a more attacking game plan.

Wallace has going backwards...


But great post ata40, makes a lot of sense...no wonder KB was shitty all those years...it's a case of what could have been...

 

[Rayzorwire]

March came out and said today that we will stick with Terry for the whole season. Good to hear

March is an idiot, plain and simple.

We could have bypassed a fair bit of the recent media BS if he'd just stated that 5-6 months ago instead of playing games.

I'm not going to go so far as to blame our losses on it, but as I said at the time and will say again now, it certainly didn't help one iota that he hung Wallace out to dry like that with his mid-season reviews and political grandstanding.

 

[tigerz18]

This is what TW started with ;

OUT:
B:.... Hartigan.....Kelleway A..... Kelleway D
HB:.... Zantuck..... Gaspar..... Chaffey
C:.... Fleming..... Fiora..... Blumfield
HF:.... Hilton..... Marsh..... Rogers
F:.... Dragicevic..... Ottens..... Rodan
FOLL:.... Stafford..... Campbell..... Krakeur
INT:.... Roach……….Weller..... Houlihan..... Fletcher
.......Archibald..... Marsh..... Humm……Nicholls………Limbach

The last time the RFC tried to re-build from ground up was under Bartlett in 1988-1991. The Northey team of 1995 was KB’s.

There are so many parallels between now and the Bartlett era;

· the way that the draft hinders quick results in the same way it did back then.
· the way people focus on the Baniks and Lounders of this world and forget the other 8 or 10 good picks. No different to the Franklin/Tambling hysteria. Simple people so obsessed with only one piece of a much bigger jigsaw.
· the way both coaches went about developing a massive core group of midfielders that developed over time and together, but with lots of learning pain along the way.
· the never ending ferals quick to pull down everything as soon as the growing pains get too much.

KB in four years was able to develop a core team that included;
Free, Campbell, Knights, Lambert, Maxfield, Daffy, Nichols, Young, B Gale, Hogg, Pickering, Naish, Mitchell, Prescott, Turner and Mathew Clarke.

That was 16 players that should have been the core of a successful team for the rest of the decade.

Instead we panicked, sacked Bartlett and murdered the rebuilding plan.

New coach – changed administration, new plans, new direction and within a few years we had lost the core of the team, let alone the momentum.

Patterson, Sproule, Jewell, Jeans, Northey, Walls, Gieshen and Frawley didn't have a plan. They were too busy trying to pacify the ferals, looking over their shoulder waiting for the knife, overhearing about the next coup. The only people safe in these time are flawed players that are given an extra few years of camouflage at the expense of publicly humiliated coaches.


A new coach, a new direction, a new order a new blind faith. Another sledgehammer through the last 4 year re-rebuild in the name of an appetite for instant success that is insatiable and self cannibalizing. New assistant coaches, new recruiting plans, new game plans, new leadership groups all so very new yet to Richmond very old.

Lets make TW pay for having a plan and making some mistakes along the way. Lets make TW be the sole sacrifice for a team suffering a confidence meltdown that can be reversed if we all get behind him and follow the plan through. Lets start searching for the new white knight, a new messiah ready to solve 26 years of misery in one swoop.

Will it be Malthouse’s with the same bloodline as KB and Northey, the iconic Mathews with the same credentials as Alan Jeans, the untried Hardwick similar to the Geesh or a person so loathed and so “un Richmond” in Buckley akin to Robert Walls.

It is 2009, not even 4 and a qtr years into the first genuine rebuilding plan since 1989, are we really going to let history repeat?

surely your not saying northey had no plan. he took them to a prelim then got the sack for walls. it contradicts you opening statement so i'll it as a typo. but northey got the passion out of the players (eg 95 semi), something that disappeared when walls took over. everyone else you mentioned is correct.

 

[emperor]

Viewing this thread with an open mind, there are some extremely good points made in here. Personally I don't think Wallace is a bad coach and putting him out on his arse for the sake of it without an effective succession plan won't be productive either. We have good young talent in our side, I don't think everything is as dire as a few years ago. Having said that, now is the time for smart and educated decisions, not rash and emotional ones. I don't know if Terry is the right bloke for us, but we need to stay on the path he has led us down. No good putting the torch to everything, because I believe there is hope in our playing list.

The thing that irks me the most is not the fact that the team is clearly not good enough at the present time and the 5 year plan seemingly has failed but the drafting and list management decisions taken during Terry's reign. His overestimation of the senior group has cost us dearly. Richo, Bowden, Tuck, Simmonds, Brown and Johnson. We still rely heavily on their output and their inability to impact games has cost us. Last year this crew were relatively alright, this year they have been dismal and look at the results.

 

[ata40]

March is an idiot, plain and simple.

We could have bypassed a fair bit of the recent media BS if he'd just stated that 5-6 months ago instead of playing games.

I'm not going to go so far as to blame our losses on it, but as I said at the time and will say again now, it certainly didn't help one iota that he hung Wallace out to dry like that with his mid-season reviews and political grandstanding.

Agree !

The 5/10 comment was stupidity, the handling of the Miller exit - his board leaked and no one was held accountable, the Tony Free debacle, the man is a media liability.

This morning he told SEN he had contingencies in place if TW left before the end of the season. He had nothing to gain in such grandstanding - he now has opened the club up to ; who is this contingency? when will you use this contingency? does TW know about the contingency? have you got a contingency for your contingency (if the potential caretaker coach say "no") etc.etc.

He walks straight into them!

 

[Rayzorwire]

Agree !

The 5/10 comment was stupidity, the handling of the Miller exit - his board leaked and no one was held accountable, the Tony Free debacle, the man is a media liability.

This morning he told SEN he had contingencies in place if TW left before the end of the season. He had nothing to gain in such grandstanding - he now has opened the club up to ; who is this contingency? when will you use this contingency? does TW know about the contingency? have you got a contingency for your contingency (if the potential caretaker coach say "no") etc.etc.

He walks straight into them!

The question becomes...can March really be that consistently braindead (its hard for even me to believe), or is he pushing an agenda?

 

[ata40]

surely your not saying northey had no plan. he took them to a prelim then got the sack for walls. it contradicts you opening statement so i'll it as a typo. but northey got the passion out of the players (eg 95 semi), something that disappeared when walls took over. everyone else you mentioned is correct.

Northey was a great ra..ra coach. Instilled alot of confidence and self belief in his team and was very good with the young kids. Had lots of the old Tiger "eat them alive - its us v's the world" passion about him. He got the very best out of the kids KB had mentored but was not given the chance to plan or get ahead - if you remember the board was unwilling to give him an early contract extension. He was constantly haunted by the ghost of Sheedy and the belief of Mal Brown and a few others that "swooper could only get you so far" i.e. was not a premiership coach.

 

[ata40]

The question becomes...can March really be that consistently braindead (its hard for even me to believe), or is he pushing an agenda?

You push an agenda if you have an agenda, not convinced he is that strategic. The Miller sacking was botched, Craig Cameron became OM by default, the cousins things was more opportunistic than planned............. dont know but an interesting conspiracy theory, if he is a puppet who is pulling the strings?

 

[TOOs_Finest]

RossLyon came out and after two years realised the game plan he had in mind (similar to Paul Roos) was NOT working and has changed it to a more attacking game plan.

Are you sure about this?

The way I see it, Ross Lyon has spent two years teaching his list how to play accountable football. This year, he has allowed them to play attacking football when they have the ball, but still demands that they quickly transition to being accountable when they don't have the ball.

From what I've heard, all the hype is about how well they have tackled and won the contested ball, kicking goals has been the icing on the cake.

Two years well spent providing a base of accountability if you ask me

 

[tugga]

Are you sure about this?

The way I see it, Ross Lyon has spent two years teaching his list how to play accountable football. This year, he has allowed them to play attacking football when they have the ball, but still demands that they quickly transition to being accountable when they don't have the ball.

From what I've heard, all the hype is about how well they have tackled and won the contested ball, kicking goals has been the icing on the cake.

Two years well spent providing a base of accountability if you ask me

Correct.
St Kilda is a good tackling side.
We are the worst.

 

[_RT_]

This might see a few people label me as an idiot but I think it would be in our best interests to actually come out mid year and sign up Wallace for another 2 years.

Ata mentioned the reason why in his OP:

The only people safe in these time are flawed players that are given an extra few years of camouflage at the expense of publicly humiliated coaches.

Instead of making Wallace pay the price why not put the heat back on the players themselves and let them know that it is there careers that are now on the line and if they want to continue on with the club they need to show that they deserve to.

 

[CoggaRules]

to easy.....history has taught us this:
Pay top dollars for the recruiters and get a half decent coach who dont come with the bells and whistles, and pay him a nominal fee and we will be 100% better off. Get with the program, we have had a truck load of shitful recruiters for the last 2 decades, thats where the problem is.

LEts not forget what Ian Wilson suggested that GR once said, you cant make strwberry jam out of shit.