Whateley's wrap

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Dank has to be cleared for the same reasons the players were cleared.
Can't have one without the other

It depends. If all the EFC support staffer/ official is charged with is sourcing, trafficking and injecting just TB4 (i.e. actual doping) into the same 34 players as the other INs, then yes you would expect consistency from the same tribunal.

However, if the INs also/instead reference intent to dope (rather than actual doping), other drugs (other than TB4), other players (than just the earlier 34), other EFC staff (coaching and mangement staff) - then anything could be the result.

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Yep, agree with that, and that's my point as well. People are pointing SOME of the evidence from what Alavi, Charter and Dank have said either in statement or in the media and then when also criticized their credibility when their so called evidence doesn't suit their argument. That is just biased, thankfully a tribunal or jury or the court system doesnt operate with the same rationale as people posting in this thread

The result makes sense when you understand that the tribunal were applying the standard of comfortable satisfaction to each component of the evidence/supply trail, not the whole - And against individual, confirmed injection into each player.

One alternative discussion point from the social litigator site had shown a hypothetical example where holding comfortable satisfaction against the infraction, not the indiviual componemts of the trail, could provide the opposite outcome.

What the tribunal did appear to be pointing to, was that certainly some of those in the chain were certainly of the belief that it was TB4, to be supplied to EFC, to dope the players.

Let's watch and see if the batch of INs cover intent as well, I think that there the result will be different.

 

[Jimthegreat]

It depends. If all the EFC support staffer/ official is charged with is sourcing, trafficking and injecting just TB4 (i.e. actual doping) into the same 34 players as the other INs, then yes you would expect consistency from the same tribunal.

However, if the INs also/instead reference intent to dope (rather than actual doping), other drugs (other than TB4), other players (than just the earlier 34), other EFC staff (coaching and mangement staff) - then anything could be the result.

Trafficking, now intent to adminster TB4 to the players as we know from evidence players got whatever was in that shipment from China. He was also charged with administering Hexarelin to the players (we know it went to support staff) but ASADA had nothing to tell them which individual player allegedly got that, that unlike TB4, so the players weren't charged.

http://www.news.com.au/sport/afl/as...d-in-doping-saga/story-fndv8gad-1227158989495

 

[NoAFLinmycomp]

Trafficking, intent to adminster TB4 to the players as we know from evidence players got whatever was in that shipment from China. He was also charged with administering Hexarelin to the players (we know it went to support staff) but ASADA had nothing to tell them which individual player allegedly got that, that unlike TB4, so the players weren't charged.

I hadn't read anything definitive on the contents. With Intent covered, then I think it's a slam dunk for some of the charges if one those already referenced by the tribunal is the one charged (e.g. Dank).

The tribunal didn't appear to have any problem with intent to dope, outside of the players (tribunal was quite clear that they did not know what there were injected with - although personally I don't believe all 34 were ignorant).

Perhaps that's the trade-off here if there ever was one to begin with (and I don't believe that the 3 tribunal members did anything other than a thorough review to the best of their abilities, experiences and backgrounds), i.e. you don't have enough to get the players for use, but you can have the support staff on intent.

 

[Jimthegreat]

I hadn't read anything definitive on the contents. With Intent covered, then I think it's a slam dunk for some of the charges if one those already referenced by the tribunal is the one charged (e.g. Dank).

The tribunal didn't appear to have any problem with intent to dope, outside of the players (tribunal was quite clear that they did not know what there were injected with - although personally I don't believe all 34 were ignorant).

Perhaps that's the trade-off here if there ever was one to begin with (and I don't believe that the 3 tribunal members did anything other than a thorough review to the best of their abilities, experiences and backgrounds), i.e. you don't have enough to get the players for use, but you can have the support staff on intent.

If he gets done for administering Hexarelin to the players it'd be something, even if it's not known which players, hence why the players weren't charged with it. Danks judgement will be very interesting on many fronts. Administering TB4 will be changed to intent as the Tribunal will believe that was his intention when he injected the Essendon players with the subtsance from that Chinese shipment.

 

[Broken_Chairs]

If he gets done for administering Hexarelin to the players it'd be something, even if it's not known which players, hence why the players weren't charged with it. Danks judgement will be very interesting on many fronts. Administering TB4 will be changed to intent as the Tribunal will believe that was his intention when he injected the Essendon players with the subtsance from that Chinese shipment.

he won't get done for administering hexarelin to players, at best it'll be like tb-4, sourcing it with the intent to use on players but whether he did doesn't meet comfortable satisfaction.

 

[Adelaide Hawk]

Sorry. If Essendon was so certain that everything they did was in accordance with the guidelines, why didn't they simply cooperate with the ASADA investigation and have this knocked on the head a long time ago? All of Essendon's actions smacked of a body which had things to hide, so I'm not convinced. Not by a long way.

 

[Jimthegreat]

If he gets done for administering Hexarelin to the players it'd be something, even if it's not known which players, hence why the players weren't charged with it. Danks judgement will be very interesting on many fronts.

he won't get done for administering hexarelin to players, at best it'll be like tb-4, sourcing it with the intent to use on players but whether he did doesn't meet comfortable satisfaction.

Doesn't affect the players directly and as they weren't charged with taking hexarelin. I believe, while be sympathetic to the players, the Tribunal will smash Dank, their intention from the beginning IMO.

 

[Shane Hird]

Club sanctions for what? They were punished by the AFL for governance.

An Essendon football club employee set out to use a banned substance on the EFC players. This employee had a strong relationship with the head coach who he claims was a strong supporter of the program.

To source the performance enhancing drug they used criminals and dodgy supply chains from China with deliberately improper record keeping...why not go through the proper channels and the doctor??

It was never a player issue....always has been about the senior figures at Essendon in 2011-12 who embarked on a program to boost performance by using a drug program set up to beat the system by using crooks and avoiding the proper medical and regulatory checks.

The club is yet to be punished for the implementation of a performance enhancing drug program.

Pretty much spot on there.

 

[Bennett.]

There will be much more. But the AFL will not be running the show. I expect -2 years before WADA have finished. The fall out will be very interesting.

The landscape will change.

I have seen the effectiveness of PED at first hand and am very happy that somebody is working to catch cheats. Pity players are to dumb to understand they are the ones being protected.

 

[yaco55]

He went through a complex 130 page judgement and broke it down into a 3 min summary for viewers. Beautifully done.

The substance was not shown to be TB4 because it was never adequately tested. Based on that, they barely looked at whether Dank actually took it to EFC and administered it to players.

This sounds similar to the Mark French case which he won on appeal to CAS. In which ASADA couldn't prove the banned substance was in the vial

Yet I was pilloried for using the French case as a reference point !

 

[yaco55]

I noticed that hahah, irritated me and couldn't concentrate on what he was saying

But why does he have the full report even though the players haven't decided yet?

Because of the good grace of the players - It would stop a 100 page thread appearing.

 

[yaco55]

On all the evidence and reports being released they still come across as drug cheats to me. However, I can now see why the tribunal did not rule in favour of ASADA. If having proof that the TB4 ordered and delivered was actually TB4 is the level of evidence required it becomes near impossible for asada to win this case.

What other evidence should be provided - You have to prove the substance is TB4 - How else can you win the case.

 

[yaco55]

I guess one has to ask what the people who supervised the Lance Armstrong regime are doing now? Are they still involved in the sport, are they in charge of another cycling team?

Ah - This brings me to the biggest loser in this saga - Richard Young the 'gun for hire' from America who reviewed ASADA's case. Young has learnt that you only get one Lance Armstrong in your life - Big difference having 20 team-mates admit to doping,and this case where no-one admitted to doping.

 

[yaco55]

Nah man, it's cool.

Crameri's mum googled it.

Ah - But I tried to convince many that you could not CATEGORICALLY state that no players made contact with ASADA - Reading Chip's article on Mandy Crameri it appears that I was correct with my assertion - The whole sequence of events with players expressing disquiet with the program, face to face meetings with officials, information sessions, player consent forms etc suggested that player/s were likely to make contact with ASADA.

 

[yaco55]

his doctor/preparatore is still involved with cyclists, but either using intermediary, or prepaid phones (both). Bruyneel is the only one kicked out of the sport.

He team, RadioShack, was owned by his management, Knaggs and Stapleton, they owned it. I think RadioShack went chapter11 (administration) in the States.

I don't think anyone else went down for the conspiracy. Oh, at the UCI, Verbruggen had moved onto the board of the IOC and was touted as a future Chair. But he resigned a few years back, so no Juan Antonio Samaranch for him. McQuaid, the last UCI President, was voted out of the comfy position in Aigle. So he lost that spot, virtue of a vote.

basically, most skated, cos a truckload of former teammates (some who now ride at Garmin) went supergrass and crowns witness, and the ones currently riding, if they admitted to something that was withing the statute of limitations (8 years is WADA) got 6 months or less ban, taken in the offseason, by doing the supergrass and crown witness. but anonymous. how do we know then? these things leak.

Leipheimer got a ban, but I think he had retired, or may have been one year left. I think Hincapie may have admitted to things before the statute of limitations, but he also retired, he just lost a very little skin of his nose. Ogrady was not involved in d'affaire Armstrong, but he would have broken the record if he could have ridden in 2014 Tour.

Note, the info that Ogrady was on the 99 or 98 list, of testing old samples, was gonna come out. And they knew. Ironically, Greenedge would not have won the Team Timetrial at the Tour de France in 2013, if Ogrady knew he was NOT on the list. Because he knew the Damoclesian sword hung over his head, he rode for his life during the TTT, and pushed the team to win the stage. A very presigious stage. If he was comfortable, and knew he was going to break the Tour riding record the next year (about 18 tours, I think Hincapie has the record, I am not sure if OGrady is one behind, or matching it, or would have broken the previous record and George Hincapie matching him).

An accurate summation. Well done.

And by the way Alexander Kristof is on fire. Won the 3 day Panne event and backed up and won Flanders.

And Matthews of OGE won the first stage of the Basque tour.

 

[yaco55]

No I am not trying to be nasty Phil ,if you honestly believe the Essendon players were hounded by ASADA then the reality of a real investigation would scare the shit out of you

I have been at acceptance that the players were found not guilty since the moment the verdict was handed down. I thought that was obvious from my posting since but feel free to believe what you like.

I am happy to cop shit about my views over the past 3 years,Essendon fans deserve to have their fun

You get more angry on twitter !

 

[yaco55]

If You really believed that, I don't reckon you'd still be on here trying to convince others of it.

The HTB has become a caricature of itself.

We need someone to spread some salacious gossip.

 

[yaco55]

I think you are being unfair in that regard. I would say his comments about this are directly related to the decision released by the tribunal.The charges were against the players and the tribunal did not even have to bring the club into it but they did, it was significant it was included.

I am also not going to blame ASADA for going ahead with charges after being given the go ahead by Richard Young. Prosecutions fail all the time , do you honestly think McDevitt went into this thinking the charges were going to fail knowing the ramifications that would come from it.

People also forget that the 132 page report that has been released is only the first report, there will be one released on Dank too which will have much more juicy stuff in it . Hopefully it gets leaked

Will Dank be found guilty ? This is no certainty.

Dank's charges also relate to GC and Carlton Footy club as well as Baseball players.

Can you imagine if Dank is found not guilty - he will run straight to his lawyers.

 

[blackcat]

An accurate summation. Well done.

And by the way Alexander Kristof is on fire. Won the 3 day Panne event and backed up and won Flanders.

And Matthews of OGE won the first stage of the Basque tour.

Matthews might be a significant rider in Liege and Fleche and Amstel. Lets see if his legs can handle the bergs when the smack goes down. like alot of the GC riders, I reckong "Bling" MAtthews has lost about 5lbs, he looks really skinny. I dont think we will see him mix it up in the major field sprints where the best come into the finish. His finishes against the best and the quickest will be against those like Phillippe Gilbert where their are decimated fields cos they have passed a few bergs.

Ewan Mcewen will be the same type of rider too. I dont think he will be able to compete on the promenades where they need to hold 1000 watts in the final k, before they even jump. I dont think he will be as good as Mcewen, but Ewan will be good in Amstel and San Remo.

I am very impressed by Daryl Impey. Remember he won the Carlton criterium in about 2005 against David Kemp when they held off the field on the final stage of the Herald Sun Tour.

I never thought Impey was anything more than a division 2 journeyman for a team like Barloworld, now he is about my favourite rider besides Baden Cooke.

 

[Dogs_R_Us]

Did Whateley (and Robbo) really say "brown virals"??

 

[Armchair Critic]

You get more angry on twitter !

Nah, I get a lot of anger directed at me on twitter though.

 

[Armchair Critic]

Will Dank be found guilty ? This is no certainty.

Dank's charges also relate to GC and Carlton Footy club as well as Baseball players.

Can you imagine if Dank is found not guilty - he will run straight to his lawyers.

If Dank was going to be cleared I would say it would have happened the same time the players were.

 

[fishardansin]

Do you think Hird asked Dank what he was injecting into the players?

It's so cute the way you guys always bring it back to Hird being some mastermind of this. Yeah I know those three, sorry string of texts and emails where he yeah yeahs Dank or Robinson are pretty damning stuff ..... if you're covered in your own foam.

 

[fishardansin]

maybe you're not taking everything into account?



On April 14 last year, after ASADA’s investigations team had submitted its final report concluding that insufficient evidence had been gathered to prove the case against the Essendon players, investigator Aaron Walker was instructed by ASADA’s senior management to interview Mr Alavi a fifth time.

On this occasion, Mr Alavi told Mr Walker about a second shipment of peptides that had arrived from China about six weeks after the first. The only record of the shipment was a handwritten noted entered by Mr Alavi’s lab assistant in the pharmacy diary: “Thymosin 1g.”

When pressed for details, Mr Alavi produced certificates of analysis and other documents he claimed to have discovered in a storage facility.

The certificates of analysis secured by ASADA did not reveal the source of the peptides, when they were manufactured or who tested them. They also contained inaccurate molecular weights for the substances they purported to identify. The veracity of the documents was questioned by ASADA’s own expert witness, University of Sydney endocrinologist David Handelsman.

The tribunal, chaired by retired Victorian County Court judge David Jones, concluded the documents could not be trusted. “The tribunal has grave doubts about the authenticity of the certificates and, in particular, the Thymosin certificate,” the tribunal found.

According to the tribunal’s reasoned judgment handed down this week: “The ASADA CEO placed considerable reliance on the February certificates.”

This is sig worthy!! Pity it can't fit in one. Perhaps we can just make sure a copy of it is posted on the first page of every thread from now on. Especially the threads where "neutrals" whine about not getting the result they wanted!