Collingwood was 6th highest in CP differential behind the 4 preliminary finalists and Melbourne
What's a realistic expectation for Collingwood in 2017?
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Collingwood was 6th highest in CP differential behind the 4 preliminary finalists and Melbourne
Varcoe ain't b grade, put your midfield up against the 5 other teams you are comparing them with. Actually put your midfield up against 10 other teams and see how it looks. Overrating your mids terribly.
Gone Critical
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I think you are getting locked into 2016 without considering the question being asked in this thread. There is no doubt Collingwood as a team put in some terrible performances in 2016 and a few times our midfield was just smashed. Think Swans, Saints, Demons x2. Other times the midfield went really well against good sides, think Dogs x2, Hawks, Cats, GWS.
2016 was a bad season overall for the Pies. We are now discussing 2017. As I have said above there are clear reasons why you can see the midfield will be better in 2017 with the addition of Wells, who improves our midfields biggest weakness (pace and elite delivery), and the maturing of Treloar, De Goey, Adams, Aish. There have been no losses from those that contributed to the 2016 season in the off season and the older guys like Pendles are still at or near their peak. The 2017 midfield looks better on paper than the 2016. This is only on paper at this stage but the projected improvement looks reasonable for me.
Basing your argument entirely on stat differentials from 2016 and ignoring all the other evidence means you are not answering the question fully for mine.
Gone Critical
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Its pretty well accepted in 2016 our backline was a disaster, poor baseline performances and too many poor players and injuries. Our forward line was injury affected and performed badly. Our coach struggled, there was disharmony in the club apparently. Still we finished 11th and the showed some good performances against top 8 clubs. Think Cats, GWS, Dogsx2, Hawks, WCE.
So now you want me to believe our midfield ranks somewhere between 11th and 18th in the comp. I thought we were pretty bad in 2016. Can you explain how we managed to finish 11th when our forwards, backs, mids and coach are so ordinary. I am not making any great claims about Collingwood or overrating them. All I am suggesting is our midfield should do alright in 2017 and will be the strong point of the side.
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Yeah, if he takes it to another level, he will be. He had good form later in the season. Don't quite understand what you're getting at there.Next you'll be telling us that aish is a good player
The teams below you were even worse that's how. Richmond finished 1 position 1 game and % behind the pies, and you'd have to agree we were really really terrible yet still managed to win 8 games and perform well against teams like the swans, cats and dogs. However I'm not suggesting we have anywhere near the top 6 midfields in the comp like some pies fans are.
Lefthanded
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re bolded - I'm interested in your explanation then of how we recorded +17 for tackles in our 2nd & 3rd biggest wins for the year (vs Ess & Suns)?
With all the talk about relative midfield strengths I went looking for some stats to support my 'on paper' thought that Pies have a reasonable midfield. Unfortunately I failed miserably as I thought something like clearance stats would be an indicator and Pies ranked 14th in 2016 http://www.afl.com.au/stats
Also of interest though was Pies are a great tackling side - 2nd per game in 2016 but obviously Swans (1st) "actually don't have the ball a lot of the time".
Elsewhere I do note that our clearances improved from -28 differential against opponents in first 11 games to +23 in last 11. Some of this may be attributed to Grundy improving in later part of year but he remains poor for hitouts (we rank 15th per game). Ultimately I think uncontested possessions (which isn't just midfield) is better indicator of success - backed by Dogs being 1, Lions being 18th but debunked by Essendon being 2nd per game.
It would need to be something like uncontested possession by metres gained to eliminate meaningless chip kicks etc in defense.
Lefthanded
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Any idea where I find that stat (or the stats to work it out)?
Gone Critical
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No one is suggesting Collingwood is near the top 6 sides just our midfield is a strength and we rank higher there than we do in other areas. If you accept our defence is close to the worst in the comp in 2016 and our forward line not much better then something has to be above average.
With your Richmond comparison you clearly outpointed Collingwood in forward performance in 2016 and your backline is clearly better than ours. We have a better midfield than you which is probably the reason why we finish above you.
Maybe you disagree and think Collingwood had better forward or backline performance in 2016 than I do.
It's apparently in the AFL Live app however per-game, per-player. I am not finding it anywhere else, at least nowhere free.
Just have a review of the teams who finished below Collingwood and Richmond. Carlton (in the very early stages of a rebuild), Fremantle (perhaps had the worst injury list in the competition), Gold Coast (injury and cultural problems), Brisbane (Has serious issues all around the club) and Essendon ( had half of their good players out for the year). To finish above these teams during the 2016 season isn't really something to write home about. Collingwood may improve a bit with the addition of the top up of Wells and some players back from injury, but they are starting from a low base on where they finished last year and I don't think it will be enough to be in contention of finals. That is not to mention the improvement of other teams around them.
Gone Critical
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Pretty good assessment. Think most would agree this is a year where we will hold on to where we are. Still a lot of holes to fill back and forward.
Best half dozen midfields? Is that definitively medioctrity? FMD a few years back we had THE best midfield in comp. Now after rebuilding for 4 years we are outside the 8 and hoping to rank in the top half dozen midfiedls - and it falls away from there?
Gone Critical
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Unfortunately true
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To be fair its pretty easy having an elite midfield when you've got guys like Swan and Pendles in the same side (and Daisy in top form), both have been top 3 mids in the comp at one stage or another, so when Swan retired it was always going to be hard to get that aura back.
The way I see it now is Pendles is the new Swan and Treloar is the new Pendles.
Those best teams you mentioned - GWS, Syd and WB - all had very strong run and rebound from HB. GWS had H.Shaw, Williams and Wilson
Syd had McVeigh, Mills and Rampe
Dogs had Boyd, JJ, Biggs
This was an area that Collingwood struggled badly in, and still an area of concern.
In 2016 Ramsay did his knee in game 2, Langdon battled injuries and only managed 5 games, Sinclair was concussed IN game at least three times, Schramberg didn't play and even Adams was injured after being forced to give direction. So for the majority of the season we had Maynard and J.Smith two kids as our HB flanks...absolutely miles off the experience, class and continuity of the GWS, Syd, Dogs.
Our ruck, Grundy, only hit his straps in the second half of the season...if he maintains that form, a relative weakness of 2016 will become a strength.
Adding Wells to the midfield, will hopefully allow Adams to play across HB and help give us some direction down back, without weakening our midfield. Also be great if Ramsay, Langdon, Scharenberg are actually options across HB.
That would leave us with a strong balanced midfield with the following who would expect plenty of games if fit (if Wells is our 4th best mid) and we have the luxury of playing Adams across HB we will go alright.
Grundy
Pendles
Treloar
Sidebottom
Wells
Varcoe
Crisp
Greenwood
Problem with Collingwood is getting our players on the park.
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Yeah and remind me where you finished on the ladder in relation to those teams
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Which has what to do with our midfield strength? Could've had Greg Williams - Bob Skillton and Junior in our midfield and we still would've failed because our defence 'and' forward line was horrendous.
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Ladder position has a lot to do with midfield strength. For example, all the teams up the top of the ladder have really good midfields. It's not rocket science mate.
Midfield strength is important however I would suggest that Collingwood's midfield is actually pretty good (it was better than Hawthorns) however even the best midfield can't cover for Collingwood's weaknesses - a very poor backline (in terms of stopping goals and rebounding), a poor forward line and almost no leaders on the field other than Pendlebury. This year, they have further upgraded their midfield but their Defence will leak goals and their forward line is still pathetic (Moore + Elliot + ???). Whether they have found any leaders remains to be seen.
- Sep 13, 2013
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Probably finish lower next year. Our trade period was horrendous. We gave away good players for little in return and the players we brought in were overpaid for and apart from Wells are meh. After having a good trade period getting Trelaor, Howe and Aish and still not improving I find it hard to see how'll we'll be better off the back of a terrible.
Why do I keep seeing suggestions of Taylor Adams in defence? His kicking is poor and he is a pure inside mid, would be bizarre to play him there where someone like Sidebottom or Pendlebury could at least use their elite disposal.
He played some games behind the ball across HB in 2016, and the Pies looked much better in those games.
His kicking is standard now, but he provides great leadership and direction down back.
Pendles is too important, and good, to be played anywhere but on the ball.
Sidebottom is better used ahead of the ball pushing forward, a great knack for goal.
