Whats our strategy

[Snoop Dog]

All year I have heard about the lack of depth in our list and what would happen if Burns and Wakes were there no longer.

I am will save for my comments until I find out if Cousins is coming to us but with Bucks and P.Smith seeming to suggest otherwise I must admit I am increasingly bewildered.

Clearly - Hine and Co know better however this is why I am concerned Cousins aint coming;

Bucks behaviour is odd- most likely going to be our coach in the next year or two. When he comes out and states we need a class inside mid you would think he was endorsing Cousins as nobody else other than Harris fitted that bill - and he aint elite! Then he comes and says dont take cousins - that will cause a lot of concern at Board level about whether they should take Bucks and it also begs the question if we did take Cousins - Buckleys in a tough position with him if he does coach the side.

OKeefe - I wonder why we didnt make a play for OKeefe. Many on this site see him as just a HF. I beg to differ as I see a heap of Sydney and know the staff their well. They see him as a HF who rotates thru the middle and is a clearance and hard ball getter. We have made a specialty of getting HFs to rotate in middle so not sure why he was difft. Surely 29 and a player could have come into the equation if we wanted that type. Would have been better than Carltons and Hawks offer. Now he will end up at Ess and Carl for nothing!

Corrie - Bargain - but so we let Shaw go for a bargain as well. Not sure what recruiting him achieves when you have Dick waiting in the wings who coaching staff have said they cannot wait to play.

Premiership window - If we dont get Cousins and have passed on getting Harris, OKeefe or any other established ball winner then I take that as a msg they dont think we can win a premiership in the next 3 yrs. Without that style of player just not sure how our list will be able to get 25 rounds and then face off against the much more physical bodies of Hawks and Cats. We need a wise head - someone who can change a game or use their experience. Hawks have that in Crawford and Sewell etc. We need one as well

 

[FIGJAM]

We're two or three players off having a 100% 2000's draftees best 22. That makes us very young.

Hine has got us into a position to address the spine with a number of raw talls, many of whom can play. They take longer.

He has a tendency towards attacking smalls with good footskills.

The inside mids he has got haven't made it, but on the plus side, they come on far quicker once we unearth a couple good enough.

We should aim for the flag next year, but the reality is I think we have been building for 2010+ since 2005.

Quick fixes with yet another HFF in O'Keefe or Green would cost us a shot or shots at 1st or 2nd round inside mids, and may not improve our team markedly.

It's been a slow burn, but there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[Snoop Dog]

We're two or three players off having a 100% 2000's draftees best 22. That makes us very young.

Hine has got us into a position to address the spine with a number of raw talls, many of whom can play. They take longer.

He has a tendency towards attacking smalls with good footskills.

The inside mids he has got haven't made it, but on the plus side, they come on far quicker once we unearth a couple good enough.

We should aim for the flag next year, but the reality is I think we have been building for 2010+ since 2005.

Quick fixes with yet another HFF in O'Keefe or Green would cost us a shot or shots at 1st or 2nd round inside mids, and may not improve our team markedly.

It's been a slow burn, but there's some light at the end of the tunnel.

i have actually sat in list mgmt presentations as i suspect others have on here from the pies. they dont give everything away but you are essentially right. they see themselves as strong in the spine but weak with ball winners.

in saying all that - cousins would be useful for a 10/11 tilt at a flag.

 

[Dave The Man]

i have actually sat in list mgmt presentations as i suspect others have on here from the pies. they dont give everything away but you are essentially right. they see themselves as strong in the spine but weak with ball winners.

in saying all that - cousins would be useful for a 10/11 tilt at a flag.

Well Were not as Privileged as you to be able to go into the Inner Sanctum of a Club like you. Wish I did.

That means 99% of us don't really know what happens inside the club we are just looking from the Outside and Pretty much just Guessing what is happening

 

[The 10th Letter]

I agree with FIGJAM.

Green and O'Keefe quite simply weren't the answer we were looking for. In a team with established midfielders they would be welcome additions and allowed to play the style of football that leads them to be rated so highly; but ours is still in development and I'm very pleased we opted to pass on them.

It seems the objective the club has in mind at this point is to slowly build the team with youth and development whilst remaining competitive. I'm happy for us to take this route, as we haven't bottomed out completely and we've made the finals three years in a run. The experience gained from these finals campaigns is invaluable in the long run and we've also been able to see how our young players fare on such a stage.

There's still a lot of development left in the players who are currently getting a regular start in the 22. The likes of O'Brien, Thomas, Pendlebury, Clarke, Goldsack, Shaw, Brown and Anthony all have varying degrees of improvement left in them.

Then you have the players on the fringes at the moment who have shown glimpses but are still developing and/or have room for improvement: McCarthy, Dawes, Cox, Dick, Reid and Wellingham. There's also the likes of Cook, Stanley and Toovey; who despite maybe not having the same scope for improvement should all contribute in the future.

I'm not expecting premiership success next year or even the year after, but I do expect us to be competitive and continue to reach finals; from there who knows. Hopefully we can iron out some of the inconsistency and find suitable solutions to our weaknesses. We are lacking some experience at the moment but on the other side of that coin, we're fast tracking the experience of most of our youth.

I'm fairly comfortable with where we stand at the moment and with how we handled ourselves this trade period.

 

[Dave The Man]

Bucks behaviour is odd- most likely going to be our coach in the next year or two. When he comes out and states we need a class inside mid you would think he was endorsing Cousins as nobody else other than Harris fitted that bill - and he aint elite! Then he comes and says dont take cousins - that will cause a lot of concern at Board level about whether they should take Bucks and it also begs the question if we did take Cousins - Buckleys in a tough position with him if he does coach the side.


Yes I give that Bucks has been a Bit Weird - Saying that a Good Inside-Mid would put us over the top to being a Top Team in the AFL(I agree with this). Then later in the Week comes out that we don't need cuz. Did Mick or Eddie have a Talk to Bucks?



OKeefe - I wonder why we didnt make a play for OKeefe. Many on this site see him as just a HF. I beg to differ as I see a heap of Sydney and know the staff their well. They see him as a HF who rotates thru the middle and is a clearance and hard ball getter. We have made a specialty of getting HFs to rotate in middle so not sure why he was difft. Surely 29 and a player could have come into the equation if we wanted that type. Would have been better than Carltons and Hawks offer. Now he will end up at Ess and Carl for nothing!

It would of Cost us Pick 11 to get O'Keefe and This is Touted to be a Super Draft, I would not give away our 1st round, Espically because we traded our 1st Round pick last year for Wood. I was more Dissapointed we did have a Go at Prismall or Thomoson or Harris because there Inside Mids and With Prismall and Thomosn that they are young and showed alot of Promise when they played.

Corrie - Bargain - but so we let Shaw go for a bargain as well. Not sure what recruiting him achieves when you have Dick waiting in the wings who coaching staff have said they cannot wait to play.

Corrie was brought in after we traded Racer because Corrie is Simmlar to Racer because he is a Ball Carrier and a Link Player but he Can Actually dispose of it farirly well not like Racer where the ball could go anywhere.

Getting another 3rd Rounder for Racer was probably what his Market Value was and maybe over his Market Value if you look what Prismall and Thomoson went for. Also Racer wanted out and Plus it did not help when Wakes blasted Racer


Premiership window - If we dont get Cousins and have passed on getting Harris, OKeefe or any other established ball winner then I take that as a msg they dont think we can win a premiership in the next 3 yrs. Without that style of player just not sure how our list will be able to get 25 rounds and then face off against the much more physical bodies of Hawks and Cats. We need a wise head - someone who can change a game or use their experience. Hawks have that in Crawford and Sewell etc. We need one as well

I am not sure where our Window is for a Flag but it didn't help with the Judkins Draft of 2001-2004. The Player we got that is on the list now is:
-Swan 2001 Draft
-Maxwell 2002 Rookie Draft
-H Shaw - Father/Son 2003
-Rusling - 2004 Draft
-T Cloke - Father/Son 2004
-O'Brien - Rookie Draft 2004

Show There the all accept 1 are KPP and 1 Mid in Swan

Thoughts on my Repsonses

 

[Snoop Dog]

DTM - largely agree. I wasnt necessarily keen on getting OKeefe it was more that I was perplexed as to what our strategy was having publicly stated we needed a class mid.

Lets hope we get Cousins and my concerns abate.

 

[mattys123]

You have to be realistic with the pies, we were a long way off the premeirship race this year, and will probably take at least one more year to be a real challenger.

We can challenge in 2010 onwards, but to do that we have to recruit young and develop from within.

Okeefe and Cousins are both too old for us, they will be gone by the time Bucks becomes our coach, and thus the policy of only recruiting players 25 and under (Corrie at 24, Wood at 19).

I think we have done the right thing, and with the draft picks we have this year, we can pick up 4 very promising players (2 midfielders, a ruck and a defender would be perfect), and these players can just add to our young and developing list.

2010 onwards is our window, and we have to recruit with that in mind.

 

[Dave The Man]

(Corrie at 24, Wood at 19).

.

Wood is 21

 

[FIGJAM]

Thoughts on my Repsonses

The Hine years started in 2004.

Despite the fact that Judkins is derided, he is still one of our top recruiters.

 

[L84AD8]

Personally if Bux is to coach us I believe it would not be the best case scenario and he would not be the best possible option.
Hazard a guess but iam thinking Choco is setting himself up for a tilt at our job when Malt exits and heads off into retirement.(most prob next yr when both contracts are up at respective clubs)
I think he would be the best option going forward. Proven experiance and a bloke who understands the cultures that make collingwood tick.
He too was an ex Captain and although i know many will counter by calling him a defector many years ago and not a true Collingwood man, i think we should aim for an experianced coach rather then a guy who has done an AFL endorsed stop gap program. Real hands on experiance as Scotty Burns knows well, is the only way too go.
Nothing against Bux but i honestly see him going the route of Brereton/Lyon/Silvagni who were all touted as possible coaches but pref media when crunch time came...

 

[shawthing09]

History aside I wouldn't want Chocco as our coach in a million years. He plays a possesion style unaccountable type game that over the years has been consistant at failing in finals. People write off Malthouse's record at getting us to finals and winning finals we aren't expected to Chocco has a terrible record in finals. Simply put chip chip, short precise running games fall over in finals if your players aren't willing to and haven't been drilled to go in to the contest with complete wreckless abandon. Chocco is almost the oppisate in coaching to Malthouse and I much prefer Malthouse's style of coaching.

Back to the point. I think the thing is. Prisimal is almost exclusively an outside midfielder. Harris is of no use if he is not winning the ball at stoppages and Thompson who???????? From all reports he is an O'Bree MkII a downgraded Danny Stanley an inside player who is slow and a poor kick.

I am hoping that this is just a hint that we are going in a direction where we recruit players who are at least capable in most areas. Not slow inside players who can't kick and outside players who are marshmellows.

 

[swiftdog]

Our gameplan comes in to this as well. Mick has got to get Hine to recruit players that will suit his gameplan. We all know it, the wings and pressure. One thing that I've noticed is that apart from the book-ends (Cloke, Brown, Rocca, Presti etc) we seem to recruit utility sort of players instead of pure midfielders. Really apart from Swan, Pendlebury and O' Bree do we have any pure midfielders? I expect that McCarthy will become a permanent mid. Even Swan will push forward on occasion.

We've got the surplus of HFF/Mids (Didak, Davis, Thomas, Medhurst, Corrie(wing), Dick, MacAffer(??), Lockyer to an extent) and also some backs/mids (Clarke, Cox, Stanley(??), Toovey(??)), probably missed a fair few.

My point is that if our gameplan is going to revolve around pressure then naturally we will get tired quicker. It is important then that we have these utility type players that can play in the middle as well as forward/back. For those of you screaming out to break the lines through the middle, the simple truth is that we can't, not yet anyway. There is no use trying to get our mids trying to play the same way as Ablett, Mitchell and Bartell because the simple fact is that our mids are not as good as these players.

I would like to see us recruit an in and under type player but only if he can play elsewhere as well. I think this is the reason that Stanley is so often played down back; simply learn to play in another position, so then he can become a part of the midfield rotation. Also, if he can't play well down back then he won't be able to cut it in the middle. There can't be any one-dimensional players at Collingwood (excluding KPP for obvious reasons) because they don't fit the gameplan.

 

[Vinnie Vegas]

Look, the truth of the matter is, while going by recent finals campaigns, it is possible to envision us making a serious flag tilt in coming years.

However, on what we actually have, the group of Heath Shaw, Trav Cloke, Sean Rusling, Harry O'Brien, Dale Thomas, Scott Pendlebury, John Anthony, Ben Reid, Nathan Brown, Chris Dawes, Tyson Goldsack, Martin Clarke, John McCarthy and presumably a few of the other kids drafted since the 2004 draft are all going to be hitting their peak at the same time.

So, while they may be contributing to a decent side now, basically all of their performances will be at a higher level by then (and yes, some will have fizzled and disappeared), because they will have experience, battle testing and body strength and endurance to improve them, and they will essentially be peaking.

If you look at the team that beat Geelong earlier in the year, or the team that beat Adelaide at AAMI, there are very few players that are actually peaking at that stage. If we can have the kind of talented group coming together in 2012 or later, that's going to be a more fearsome side than the side that we may be able to put together over the next year or two.

So if there is a value placed on that window as a time when our side should be coming to maturity together, I don't have a real problem with that. It's long term planning, but I am happy with the club to be making a long term plan like that, as it allows us not to miss the forest for the trees (i.e. Losing a potential key part to future success in search of an immediate improvement).

 

[Outa McSporren]

Our gameplan comes in to this as well. Mick has got to get Hine to recruit players that will suit his gameplan. We all know it, the wings and pressure. One thing that I've noticed is that apart from the book-ends (Cloke, Brown, Rocca, Presti etc) we seem to recruit utility sort of players instead of pure midfielders. Really apart from Swan, Pendlebury and O' Bree do we have any pure midfielders? I expect that McCarthy will become a permanent mid. Even Swan will push forward on occasion.

We've got the surplus of HFF/Mids (Didak, Davis, Thomas, Medhurst, Corrie(wing), Dick, MacAffer(??), Lockyer to an extent) and also some backs/mids (Clarke, Cox, Stanley(??), Toovey(??)), probably missed a fair few.

My point is that if our gameplan is going to revolve around pressure then naturally we will get tired quicker. It is important then that we have these utility type players that can play in the middle as well as forward/back. For those of you screaming out to break the lines through the middle, the simple truth is that we can't, not yet anyway. There is no use trying to get our mids trying to play the same way as Ablett, Mitchell and Bartell because the simple fact is that our mids are not as good as these players.

I would like to see us recruit an in and under type player but only if he can play elsewhere as well. I think this is the reason that Stanley is so often played down back; simply learn to play in another position, so then he can become a part of the midfield rotation. Also, if he can't play well down back then he won't be able to cut it in the middle. There can't be any one-dimensional players at Collingwood (excluding KPP for obvious reasons) because they don't fit the gameplan.

I totally agree with what you're saying here, this was the first thing I thought of yesterday when we picked up Corrie. He fits the forward/midfield mould to a tea. In a few years time, besides the KPP's, we'll no doubt be watching one big continuous rotation unfold in games right before our very eyes. In a way it's just an extension of the high level of bench rotations that we use, only it's all happening on the field between positions.

 

[PieLebo87]

Bucks behaviour is odd- most likely going to be our coach in the next year or two. When he comes out and states we need a class inside mid you would think he was endorsing Cousins as nobody else other than Harris fitted that bill - and he aint elite! Then he comes and says dont take cousins - that will cause a lot of concern at Board level about whether they should take Bucks and it also begs the question if we did take Cousins - Buckleys in a tough position with him if he does coach the side.

I see it differently. Buckley might just want the extra list position being given to an 18yo for him to develop 2-3 years down the track so he has a better chance to win a Premiership. Whether Cousins is at Collingwood when Buckley is there won't make a difference. As far as I'm concerned, if BEEGs still has it on good notice that Cousins is coming, then I'll believe him over the other rumours and 'reports' that have come out recently.

OKeefe - I wonder why we didnt make a play for OKeefe. Many on this site see him as just a HF. I beg to differ as I see a heap of Sydney and know the staff their well. They see him as a HF who rotates thru the middle and is a clearance and hard ball getter. We have made a specialty of getting HFs to rotate in middle so not sure why he was difft. Surely 29 and a player could have come into the equation if we wanted that type. Would have been better than Carltons and Hawks offer. Now he will end up at Ess and Carl for nothing!

Simple, because O'Keefe costs too much. Sydney wanted too much and he wanted too much. Why would you, as a young team, needing to secure Cousins (with a price on his head), get another player who is requesting way too much money on his first contract for you club? Especially as a HFF. Do you think Medhurst, Thomas, Dick or Davis would be fine having someone just walk through the door and play a similar position for the club whilst getting paid more?

Corrie - Bargain - but so we let Shaw go for a bargain as well. Not sure what recruiting him achieves when you have Dick waiting in the wings who coaching staff have said they cannot wait to play.

Shaw, like Tarrant, was relieved because of off-field issues. Plus he was rather poor with the footy. We replaced him for free with someone younger, just as quick, and a better disposal.

Premiership window - If we dont get Cousins and have passed on getting Harris, OKeefe or any other established ball winner then I take that as a msg they dont think we can win a premiership in the next 3 yrs. Without that style of player just not sure how our list will be able to get 25 rounds and then face off against the much more physical bodies of Hawks and Cats. We need a wise head - someone who can change a game or use their experience. Hawks have that in Crawford and Sewell etc. We need one as well

In 2006, both Buckley and Clement barely played, and we got to a Prelim. In 2007, Burns barely played, and we got to a Semi-Final. Its the kids that are getting us this far. Those same kids are going to be a year older and wiser. If anything, we'll probably go further this year, verifying to everyone that our window is well and trully open. We need an inside mid, but we don't NEED a Harris or Cousins because we've obviously done perfectly fine developing our own in the last 2-3 years.