MMA-Other When Did You Start Watching MMA?

[Exe Gesis]

I think it was Dan Severn or Don Frye, then Mark Coleman busted him up bad, then Maurice Smith busted up Coleman bad with high kicks, then Randy Couture busted up Smith.

 

[Exe Gesis]

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[Exe Gesis]

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[Dan Cooper]

My memory is failing me, why I can't remember the names of those fighters in the middle years, there was that moustached guy who looked like Tom Selleck. Was a champion as explained before, thru mainly a mix of grappling and fist strikes. Then he got absolutely pounded by a guy who used a high kick, which had long been out of vogue in the UFC, and then suddenly high kicks were back. As you said, they were all still looking for THE answer. The UFC early and mid years was like a scientific breeding ground, laboratory, looking for the 'ultimate' fighting skills needed, the all-purpose style. But it's weird because NOW in the martial art community...everyone realizes that ground-fighting does not work in real life, that, like everyone originally believed, strikes is what matters (hand/elbow/knee/foot). Get in first, strike, get your opponent down, and then clinch them out (in an octagon).

Don Frye? Dan Severn?

Looked back after posting and you already answered it.

Out for the night. Back for more tomorrow

 

[the_interloper]

I think it started off BJJ is superior, then wrestling with sub defence, then kickboxing with TDD, then pretty much everything with superior conditioning. Even TMAs have become prevalent in the last few years, things like TKD and karate have shown they can be applied in the cage with guns like Lyoto, Pettis and Conor (not sure of his background but assuming it's somewhere in the TMAs).

I think as we go on we realise how important an art like boxing is, seemingly unimportant early doors but if wrestling, BJJ, muay thai and conditioning are even if you can really use your hands standing up you can have most guys covered I'd say.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I think it was Dan Severn or Don Frye, then Mark Coleman busted him up bad, then Maurice Smith busted up Coleman bad with high kicks, then Randy Couture busted up Smith.

That was a fun era. I didn't have the pleasure of going through it as it happened, but even watching it back years later it was compelling stuff. Coleman looked like he was unbeatable until Smith out-conditioned him, but it was Pete Williams in overtime who gave Coleman problems with the high kicks (as evidenced below).

I completely get what you're saying about the cookie cutter fighters we are getting these days.... the old UFC cards had fighers from vast backgrounds to the point that you never knew what you were going to get. I remember the first time watching UFC 3 and seeing Scott Morris' ninjitsu montage prior to his fight with Pat Smith and thinking he looked like he had a heap of promise. Well, maybe not so much....

Also, I can't bring up UFC 3 without bringing up the man who created a system to bring the karate aspect back in to jiu jitsu.... Mr Harold Clarence Howard. Some amazing unintentional comedy in his interviews and fighting style, but my favourite moment in his all too brief UFC run was straight after the match Gracie forfeited against him. A guy who I assume is his manager runs in to the cage with his arms in the air celebrating as soon as the towel was thrown in, only to see the look on Howards face and immediately start punching the air in disappointment. Of course the more famous highlight of his time in the octagon was this hilarious kick attempt:

 

[Exe Gesis]

That was a fun era. I didn't have the pleasure of going through it as it happened, but even watching it back years later it was compelling stuff. Coleman looked like he was unbeatable until Smith out-conditioned him, but it was Pete Williams in overtime who gave Coleman problems with the high kicks (as evidenced below).

I completely get what you're saying about the cookie cutter fighters we are getting these days.... the old UFC cards had fighers from vast backgrounds to the point that you never knew what you were going to get. I remember the first time watching UFC 3 and seeing Scott Morris' ninjitsu montage prior to his fight with Pat Smith and thinking he looked like he had a heap of promise. Well, maybe not so much....

Also, I can't bring up UFC 3 without bringing up the man who created a system to bring the karate aspect back in to jiu jitsu.... Mr Harold Clarence Howard. Some amazing unintentional comedy in his interviews and fighting style, but my favourite moment in his all too brief UFC run was straight after the match Gracie forfeited against him. A guy who I assume is his manager runs in to the cage with his arms in the air celebrating as soon as the towel was thrown in, only to see the look on Howards face and immediately start punching the air in disappointment. Of course the more famous highlight of his time in the octagon was this hilarious kick attempt:

Yep, thanks for correcting my memory! THAT was the kick! By Pete Williams. My current favorite MMA fighter is that redheaded 'redneck' looking one who has that killer swinging punch. I like him because he kinda reminds of Tank Abbott of UFC-olde.

 

[Dan Cooper]

I think it started off BJJ is superior, then wrestling with sub defence, then kickboxing with TDD, then pretty much everything with superior conditioning. Even TMAs have become prevalent in the last few years, things like TKD and karate have shown they can be applied in the cage with guns like Lyoto, Pettis and Conor (not sure of his background but assuming it's somewhere in the TMAs).

I think as we go on we realise how important an art like boxing is, seemingly unimportant early doors but if wrestling, BJJ, muay thai and conditioning are even if you can really use your hands standing up you can have most guys covered I'd say.

The Western boxing hand skill-set is an import part of almost all successful MMA fighters. But MMA is now such a hybrid fighting art you cant afford to be weak in any specific discipline or it could bring about your undoing.

 

[the_interloper]

The Western boxing hand skill-set is an import part of almost all successful MMA fighters. But MMA is now such a hybrid fighting art you cant afford to be weak in any specific discipline or it could bring about your undoing.

Yep that's definitely true, wrestling, BJJ, boxing and muay thai are such a given now it's basically assumed. I think in HW you can get away with being a bit more limited but definitely under that you have to be truly all round.

 

[the_interloper]

I think it was Dan Severn or Don Frye, then Mark Coleman busted him up bad, then Maurice Smith busted up Coleman bad with high kicks, then Randy Couture busted up Smith.

That Smith v Coleman fight was pretty much the first one I remember of a striker learning BJJ well enough to limit damage on the ground against a grappler. He basically made Coleman gas and then took him apart on the feet after that. Geez Coleman was juiced to the gills back then, he was an absolute beast. Of course they were mates but Kerr v Coleman would have been a great match back in the day.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Yep, thanks for correcting my memory! THAT was the kick! By Pete Williams. My current favorite MMA fighter is that redheaded 'redneck' looking one who has that killer swinging punch. I like him because he kinda reminds of Tank Abbott of UFC-olde.

Sam Alvey? Like Tank he is fun to watch for his ability to score the KO out of nowhere, but he has never mentioned becoming aroused after knocking an opponent senseless.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Sam Alvey? Like Tank he is fun to watch for his ability to score the KO out of nowhere, but he has never mentioned becoming aroused after knocking an opponent senseless.

Not him. He's kinda fat and has long red hair like a redneck. I'll try to google search....i suck at that.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Roy Nelson!

 

[Exe Gesis]

 

[Exe Gesis]

His signature strike is that long looping loosely thrown right, in a wide arc. That is actually a very effective strike i learned when i did kung fu. Throwing a loose unmuscular arm in a circular or upward/downward motion, also done backwards so that the outer bone of your fist strikes the head. You dont tire yourself out, by throwing them loose, and they're much quicker than a muscular punch, and they hurt or knockout people much more. Think of it like swinging a steel ball on the end of a chain. The chain being your arm, loose and floppy, whipping motion, and the fist (using the back-bone of the hand, or even the front side length of the fist) is the steel ball striking.

 

[Exe Gesis]

That Smith v Coleman fight was pretty much the first one I remember of a striker learning BJJ well enough to limit damage on the ground against a grappler. He basically made Coleman gas and then took him apart on the feet after that. Geez Coleman was juiced to the gills back then, he was an absolute beast. Of course they were mates but Kerr v Coleman would have been a great match back in the day.

Yep. That's exactly right, and what fans/analysts at the time were trending on. It was a showcase of ground-technique thru the years, then a few pure strikers started having success in learning a few defensive ground techniques, and soon it re-opened the debate and the MMA training focus back to striking is important. All came about in that middle Smith/Coleman/Frye era. From there it's grown to where we are today -- octogon-wise. Martial arts per se tho has regained its effectiveness as people have realized ground-fighting is unimportant in a real/street fight. All about strikes. Tho arts like Aikido/JJ imo contain many important facets to them that are very useful in real life situations.

Thing is...the origin of the UFC had a reasoning to it. But it ended up becoming a sport, with rules, and so to be good at the SPORT of MMA, you have to have an all-round base of techniques, that are suited for the specificity of the sport/rules/environment itself. There are many things outlawed in the sport that are effective, that cant be used otherwise people will be maimed, or that if allowed would show a few more tricks to winning fights when in a defensive position.

 

[the_interloper]

Yep. That's exactly right, and what fans/analysts at the time were trending on. It was a showcase of ground-technique thru the years, then a few pure strikers started having success in learning a few defensive ground techniques, and soon it re-opened the debate and the MMA training focus back to striking is important. All came about in that middle Smith/Coleman/Frye era. From there it's grown to where we are today -- octogon-wise. Martial arts per se tho has regained its effectiveness as people have realized ground-fighting is unimportant in a real/street fight. All about strikes. Tho arts like Aikido/JJ imo contain many important facets to them that are very useful in real life situations.

Thing is...the origin of the UFC had a reasoning to it. But it ended up becoming a sport, with rules, and so to be good at the SPORT of MMA, you have to have an all-round base of techniques, that are suited for the specificity of the sport/rules/environment itself. There are many things outlawed in the sport that are effective, that cant be used otherwise people will be maimed, or that if allowed would show a few more tricks to winning fights when in a defensive position.

I thought the origin of the UFC was basically advertising for BJJ in the US, and it seemed to work well. And I wouldn't say that it's all about strikes in a street fight, for example I reckon judo would be a great art for the street, if you can throw an attacker onto the concrete easily I'd say that's a great way to win a fight.

And what specific techniques are you talking about with regard to what isn't allowed in the UFC/unified rules? I know nut shots were allowed for UFC 2 and Royce still won, if a martial art is self defence oriented like GJJ it should be able to deal with such things.

FWIW I have no martial art training, have recently started learning to box but it's more of a fitness thing, so really have no idea about fighting etc.

 

[Exe Gesis]

I thought the origin of the UFC was basically advertising for BJJ in the US, and it seemed to work well. And I wouldn't say that it's all about strikes in a street fight, for example I reckon judo would be a great art for the street, if you can throw an attacker onto the concrete easily I'd say that's a great way to win a fight.

And what specific techniques are you talking about with regard to what isn't allowed in the UFC/unified rules? I know nut shots were allowed for UFC 2 and Royce still won, if a martial art is self defence oriented like GJJ it should be able to deal with such things.

FWIW I have no martial art training, have recently started learning to box but it's more of a fitness thing, so really have no idea about fighting etc.

I don't know the reasons for the origin of UFC. But i do know that the origins of UFC were a laboratory. Testing pure styles against pure styles. That's more what I meant.

UFC originally had looser rules, you could break people's arms, and other things like hair pull. Tho you couldn't do stuff like throat punch, eye gouge, or pinch or bite, etc. Plus there were certain known martial art techniques deemed too dangerous. I don't know the specific names for some of those techniques, but I remember watching one in the early UFC where a guy put another into a certain vulnerable position, and proceeded to knee him in the head, and the referee quickly jumped in to stop it, and the commentators talked about how that specific technique was not allowed. I think they called it the Crucifix position or something. You kinda pinned the guys limbs with your limbs, lying sideways across him, him unable to defend himself, his head exposed to a damaging knee strike. There are probably other life-threatening maneuvers you couldn't perform back then too. Like a pile-driver, etc.

And....today.....there are tons of rules of what combatants can and can't do. As the years rolled by, the SPORTING body itself keeps bringing in rules to ensure safety, lessen damage, including even things like 3 minute rounds, etc etc. A lot of it to highlight the best aspects of the sport, and make it a good entertainment. Whereas early UFCs were spent 15 minutes on the mat, in a 'boring' grapple struggle. The sport now is more open, kicks, punches, grappling, etc, combatants taken off the mat quicker, etc.

Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido....all these arts DO HAVE many techniques that are useful and even vital for real fights, street fights. Throws, grapples, catching arms/legs and twisting them to breaking point, etc. I meant more that the sport of mma is not a true representation of a 'real fight' or 'street fight'. People don't grapple on top of each other on the ground for 3+ minutes, trying to get in the guard, or trying to get out of the guard or a choke, with a referee standing over them ensuring no foul play etc. In a real fight, it's ALL about strikes. You HAVE TO get in first, get in quick, and you have to be dangerous if you want to win and avoid getting put in hospital. Because people will kick the s**t out of you, they'll have their buddies ganging up 3 or 4 on one. They'll use knives, wooden bats, whatever, and king hit you from behind. They'll bite your face, nose, gouge your eyes. Etc.

Best advice is, avoid fights altogether. These days especially, everyone is trained in a martial art. It's not like 30 or 40 years ago when only few people knew stuff. These days a lot of people know how to fight in the arts. So if you do try to push on with a fight, you run the risk of getting put in hospital for being out-martial-art'ed by someone with better skills. And, there are a lot of heroes now too. Juiced up or gangsters, who are blood-thirsty, love violence, and want to start trouble.

But if you DO get into a fight....the only things that will work is good old-fashioned striking skills. As Bruce Lee understood. Western Boxing, some kicks (i was taught a special kung fu style that implores kicks should never be higher than the belly-button). Especially as in real life you walk around in jeans or pants. It's never practical, a real fight. You arent in loose gym gear. You're often carrying stuff on you, backpacks, long coats, phone holsters, etc etc. Plus, it's very risky to throw kicks high, as you expose yourself. The direct strikes of Jeet June Do (what Lee taught) for instance are the best most useful forms of attack/defense against kicks etc.

I wont keep writing on and on here. But "street" martial art styles are always good. Things taught to police, military people. How to disable knives, guns, quickly get a hold of someone who threw a punch/kick/knife-lunge at you, and wrap them up, break their arms, using their weight/momentum to bring them down into a choke hold, and/or deadly strike to the face. Those kinds of things are gold.

So, yes...judo, aikido, jujitsu, and those types, do have a range of techniques that are used by the military, police, etc.

 

[Barry Roundhouse]

my head hurts

 

[the_interloper]

I don't know the reasons for the origin of UFC. But i do know that the origins of UFC were a laboratory. Testing pure styles against pure styles. That's more what I meant.

UFC originally had looser rules, you could break people's arms, and other things like hair pull. Tho you couldn't do stuff like throat punch, eye gouge, or pinch or bite, etc. Plus there were certain known martial art techniques deemed too dangerous. I don't know the specific names for some of those techniques, but I remember watching one in the early UFC where a guy put another into a certain vulnerable position, and proceeded to knee him in the head, and the referee quickly jumped in to stop it, and the commentators talked about how that specific technique was not allowed. I think they called it the Crucifix position or something. You kinda pinned the guys limbs with your limbs, lying sideways across him, him unable to defend himself, his head exposed to a damaging knee strike. There are probably other life-threatening maneuvers you couldn't perform back then too. Like a pile-driver, etc.

And....today.....there are tons of rules of what combatants can and can't do. As the years rolled by, the SPORTING body itself keeps bringing in rules to ensure safety, lessen damage, including even things like 3 minute rounds, etc etc. A lot of it to highlight the best aspects of the sport, and make it a good entertainment. Whereas early UFCs were spent 15 minutes on the mat, in a 'boring' grapple struggle. The sport now is more open, kicks, punches, grappling, etc, combatants taken off the mat quicker, etc.

Judo, Jujitsu, Aikido....all these arts DO HAVE many techniques that are useful and even vital for real fights, street fights. Throws, grapples, catching arms/legs and twisting them to breaking point, etc. I meant more that the sport of mma is not a true representation of a 'real fight' or 'street fight'. People don't grapple on top of each other on the ground for 3+ minutes, trying to get in the guard, or trying to get out of the guard or a choke, with a referee standing over them ensuring no foul play etc. In a real fight, it's ALL about strikes. You HAVE TO get in first, get in quick, and you have to be dangerous if you want to win and avoid getting put in hospital. Because people will kick the s**t out of you, they'll have their buddies ganging up 3 or 4 on one. They'll use knives, wooden bats, whatever, and king hit you from behind. They'll bite your face, nose, gouge your eyes. Etc.

Best advice is, avoid fights altogether. These days especially, everyone is trained in a martial art. It's not like 30 or 40 years ago when only few people knew stuff. These days a lot of people know how to fight in the arts. So if you do try to push on with a fight, you run the risk of getting put in hospital for being out-martial-art'ed by someone with better skills. And, there are a lot of heroes now too. Juiced up or gangsters, who are blood-thirsty, love violence, and want to start trouble.

But if you DO get into a fight....the only things that will work is good old-fashioned striking skills. As Bruce Lee understood. Western Boxing, some kicks (i was taught a special kung fu style that implores kicks should never be higher than the belly-button). Especially as in real life you walk around in jeans or pants. It's never practical, a real fight. You arent in loose gym gear. You're often carrying stuff on you, backpacks, long coats, phone holsters, etc etc. Plus, it's very risky to throw kicks high, as you expose yourself. The direct strikes of Jeet June Do (what Lee taught) for instance are the best most useful forms of attack/defense against kicks etc.

I wont keep writing on and on here. But "street" martial art styles are always good. Things taught to police, military people. How to disable knives, guns, quickly get a hold of someone who threw a punch/kick/knife-lunge at you, and wrap them up, break their arms, using their weight/momentum to bring them down into a choke hold, and/or deadly strike to the face. Those kinds of things are gold.

So, yes...judo, aikido, jujitsu, and those types, do have a range of techniques that are used by the military, police, etc.

As I understand it the UFC was the brainchild of Rorion Gracie, he'd had the BJJ challenge matches in their dojos in California and figured it would be a great spectator event. It probably wasn't as representative as it should have been, there was no luta livre or wrestling representation in the tournament, though Shamrock's inclusion would have been a big worry to the Gracies surely.

The only rules early were no biting, no eye gouging and no nut shots, as I said nut shots were allowed from the second one until the Hackney Son fight. You might be talking about the Gary Goodridge - Paul Herrera fight, Goodridge took him out with elbows from the crucifix position, still don't think that would be illegal even now though. So yeah TMAs had their opportunity back then and still couldn't combat the choke.

One thing I do agree with you on is to avoid fights altogether. Frank Shamrock was UFC champ and got challenged on the street and he ran for his life, smart move and good example for sure.

 

[YippeeYiYeo]

The first few UFC events were particularly interesting and sure dispelled some martial arts myths. The events were after all intended to prove the effectiveness of BJJ, and they did that in spades with Royce Gracie.

Memories....

amazing to think that the UFC almost died

 

[Exe Gesis]

As I understand it the UFC was the brainchild of Rorion Gracie, he'd had the BJJ challenge matches in their dojos in California and figured it would be a great spectator event. It probably wasn't as representative as it should have been, there was no luta livre or wrestling representation in the tournament, though Shamrock's inclusion would have been a big worry to the Gracies surely.

The only rules early were no biting, no eye gouging and no nut shots, as I said nut shots were allowed from the second one until the Hackney Son fight. You might be talking about the Gary Goodridge - Paul Herrera fight, Goodridge took him out with elbows from the crucifix position, still don't think that would be illegal even now though. So yeah TMAs had their opportunity back then and still couldn't combat the choke.

One thing I do agree with you on is to avoid fights altogether. Frank Shamrock was UFC champ and got challenged on the street and he ran for his life, smart move and good example for sure.

Yeah, I've seen some MMA fighters in real life get the s**t beaten out of them. Often it's the usual, someone else king hits them from behind, or someone found something near them, a wooden pole, a rock, whatever, and knocked them out, or the very difficult thing of trying to fight 3 or more people at once. Seen some videos on youtube of street fights too, same things happen. Another one where a MMA fighter died from injuries, he started the fight making comment to a girl in a gas station, her male friends came.

Avoiding fights is a wonderful lesson. Even if you win a fight, or break even, the result is you still end up with injuries, cuts to the face, lose an eye, jaw/teeth broken, mangled nose (lose your good looks). Or, get charged with assault/battery. Or worse, their mates track you down one day and beat the s**t out of you or shoot/stab you to death.

 

[phantom13]

Crucifix position was and is still allowed, they banned 12-6 elbows. Not sure what styles were "banned" in the first few UFC's, pretty sure it was no eye gouging, no fish hooking, no biting, the rest was fair game.

My first MMA coach (who is a UFC ref now ironically) was also a Krav Maga instructor. He got asked what he would do in a bar fight he answered "either run, or kick the guy in the nuts and run. Basically dont get into a street fight unless you are a f**king idiot who wants to get killed or go to jail". This dude is a stone cold killer in the ring and that was his answer. We were also told that fighting outside of the gym (with the exception of sanctioned competitions which the trainers would decide if you were ready or not for) would get you banned.

 

[Exe Gesis]

Maybe it wasnt the crucifix position im remembering. It was something similar. Or maybe my memory is failing me. I am old after all

 

[phantom13]

Maybe it wasnt the crucifix position im remembering. It was something similar. Or maybe my memory is failing me. I am old after all

Thats a crucifix, can also be mounted where the guy is on top. There was a brutal crucifix in one of the first UFC's where the guy who had it just rained down elbows to his unconscious opponent.

http://www.bloodyelbow.com/2013/2/1...ehind-gary-goodridges-knockout-debut-at-ufc-8

If you have seen the video of that fight you know exactly what im talking about, its awful.