Where does it all stop?

[kozi]

I made this post on the Collingwood board and felt it is also needed here.

Let me firstly say this: I am 100% against racism... real racism that is. We need a serious discussion from someone /a group at the top on what racism really is because few people have a clue. The sad thing is we know this will most likely not happen.


That being said, where does this over the top hypersensitivity to anything that can be remotely taken as racist stop? I dont post on bigfooty but feel that i need to here because this matter is quickly getting out of hand. Fact is very few people know what racism really is, and the ones that do are too fearful to speak up in fear of being labeled racists themselves. Would we even be having a discussion if an indigenous person called say, Darren Jolly a polar bear? The path we are currently on as a society is one where in the future it will be hard for a non-indigenous person to even have a conversation with an indigenous person because there literally is no boundary to what can be be taken as a racist slur these days. The media knows this subject sells because people will listen to and read about it, so they continue to promote the thinning of the skin of today's society in an effort to create more controversial situations like this. Sad really. In Melbourne especially we have a metlingpot of hundreds of different cultures, and there in nobody more culturally aware than myself so i am not scared to stand up and tackle this issue looking at it from both sides of the fence. My biggest fear is that on the back of this weeks events more and more people will now make an effort to interpret what they hear as being race related. The downward spiral will only continue and increase in velocity unless we have a well know person or group stand up and talk about the issue in a manner that is not biast to the ones being offended. I repeat - the educated ones that should be leading the discussions on this matter are too fearful of being labeled a racist to even attempt to talk about this subject from both sides of the fence.

1) Things need to be taken in the context they are said.
2) The people taking offence need to realize the motives behind the chosen words before being offended and passing judgement.
3) The person who's first instinct is to try and be offended needs to have a reality check.

If Friday's little girl had made a direct reference to anyone's race then this would all be fair and good. However its clear to all the girl said what she said because of Goodes's big build and thick beard.. not anything to do with his race. Why be offended first and ask questions about her motives later? Goodes needed to hear her explanation for the word before attempting to put his name down in history as the modern day Nick Winmar over something that was not a racist comment.

Example: You call a fat Chinese man a fatso. Why isn't that taken as racist? If it is a personal comment where the race of the person is not referred to to then i dont understand how an entire race of people can take offence to it. The path we are heading on right now is one where that Asian man would be racially offended you called a fatso would be offended for racial reasons. Where does it all stop?

I concede that Eddie really put his foot in it today, he needed to stay as far away from the matter as possible with any light hearted comment made. But why Harry O felt the need to be a hero on twitter astounds me. Pick up the goddam phone instead, Harry, and do yourself and your football club a favor.

 

[tugga]

The answer is simple.
Treat everyone you meet and see with respect until he or she gives you a genuine reason not to.
Then it will all stop.

 

[eays]

I find the label of "thin skinned" as racist and therefore request that you apologise and after I reject said apology request you are subject to bigfooty's racial vilification process .... Or I can just grow up ... Hmmmmm

 

[Grin]

Come on people.

Surely it's not that hard.

 

[Harmichael]

Come on people.

Surely it's not that hard.

I find your avatar offensive.

 

[Bojangles17]

What McGuire said was plain ****en stupid in 2013, even moreso given the events of past week. Of course goodes has a right to be upset, it makes mcguires apology on Friday that i applauded look nothing more than a trumped up media stunt

 

[spark12]

Comes down to being educated about matters IMO, i went to school growing up in Broadmeadows there was no problems at my school with racism , then shifted at 15 to Boronia and seen first hand Racsim on a daily basis.

 

[mcuzzy]

It's much harder for the younger people to understand what is racist and what isn't. Like some have already said it can also come down to what area you have grown up in too.

Until recently I had no idea Ape could be considered racist towards an Australian aboriginal, I couldn't see the link.

I knew about those of direct African descent being referred to as ape, monkey gorilla etc. but I didn't think it applied to the Indigenous Australians at all.

But it's just my ignorance I guess. I remember a couple of years ago jokingly saying Ben Hudson had a beard like the terrorist Osama Bin Laden and I got a few cheap chuckles. Then a few weeks later or whenever, I said the same thing about Bachar Houli and the reaction was seriously like someone had just intentionally farted at a funeral. I was only referring to his beard but obviously it sounded much worse.

So especially the younger people have to be careful because most of us haven't been surrounded by any serious racism so it goes straight over our head.

As far as I'm concered all races are the same and hopefully the whole world can soon recognise that as one and moves on.

Kinda funny/sad how we fight among ourselves really. The earth is huge to us, so much to explore and so much to do. Yet it is so small in comparison to everything else, we aren't even a speck. There is a whole universe out there and yet we're still fighting over skin colour and who has the biggest explosives in order to wipe out our own people and planet.

 

[eays]

Mcguire's comment was stupid and frankly I don't like the bloke so couldn't care less what happens to him. But what pisses me off is how touchy and thin skinned our society is becoming .... Political correctness has gotten out of control ... seriously since when has "ape" become a racist term ... Ape is not a race .... In fact, look up the definition of racist In the dictionary and its a pretty big leap to connect the word ape to racist.

 

[Livonski]

Mcguire's comment was stupid and frankly I don't like the bloke so couldn't care less what happens to him. But what pisses me off is how touchy and thin skinned our society is becoming .... Political correctness has gotten out of control ... seriously since when has "ape" become a racist term ... Ape is not a race .... In fact, look up the definition of racist In the dictionary and its a pretty big leap to connect the word ape to racist.

Please do some research into the subject.
Calling a black man "ape" is one of the most denigrating things you can say. Always has been. Just because you don't know this doesn't make it not true. Read up. Go past the dictionary.

 

[eays]

It's much harder for the younger people to understand what is racist and what isn't. Like some have already said it can also come down to what area you have grown up in too.

Until recently I had no idea Ape could be considered racist towards an Australian aboriginal, I couldn't see the link.

I knew about those of direct African descent being referred to as ape, monkey gorilla etc. but I didn't think it applied to the Indigenous Australians at all.

But it's just my ignorance I guess. I remember a couple of years ago jokingly saying Ben Hudson had a beard like the terrorist Osama Bin Laden and I got a few cheap chuckles. Then a few weeks later or whenever, I said the same thing about Bachar Houli and the reaction was seriously like someone had just intentionally farted at a funeral. I was only referring to his beard but obviously it sounded much worse.

So especially the younger people have to be careful because most of us haven't been surrounded by any serious racism so it goes straight over our head.

As far as I'm concered all races are the same and hopefully the whole world can soon recognise that as one and moves on.

Kinda funny/sad how we fight among ourselves really. The earth is huge to us, so much to explore and so much to do. Yet it is so small in comparison to everything else, we aren't even a speck. There is a whole universe out there and yet we're still fighting over skin colour and who has the biggest explosives in order to wipe out our own people and planet.

Calling someone an ape became a racist term about a week ago when Adam Goodes decided "to make a statement" in response to the ignorant chanting of a 13 yo child ... Seriously, this debate should be as much about the irresponsible reaction / behaviour of Goodes towards a child AND the unilateral decision of one man to ascribe racial connotations to an otherwise neutral word; as anything else

 

[eays]

Please do some research into the subject.
Calling a black man "ape" is one of the most denigrating things you can say. Always has been. Just because you don't know this doesn't make it not true. Read up. Go past the dictionary.

Sorry this is simply not true

 

[Livonski]

Calling someone an ape became a racist term about a week ago when Adam Goodes decided "to make a statement" in response to the ignorant chanting of a 13 yo child ... Seriously, this debate should be as much about the irresponsible reaction / behaviour of Goodes towards a child AND the unilateral decision of one man to ascribe racial connotations to an otherwise neutral word; as anything else

http://scienceblog.com/15428/americans-still-linking-blacks-to-apes/

Here's a start for you. It's not that hard to educate yourself mate.

 

[chunkylover53]

Calling someone an ape became a racist term about a week ago when Adam Goodes decided "to make a statement" in response to the ignorant chanting of a 13 yo child ... Seriously, this debate should be as much about the irresponsible reaction / behaviour of Goodes towards a child AND the unilateral decision of one man to ascribe racial connotations to an otherwise neutral word; as anything else

Far out. Do some research buddy, and before you say "Well how was the 13 yr old girl supposed to know that?". She didn't, which is why Adam Goodes spoke to her on the phone and educated her on the topic.

I'll say it to you as simple as possible.
White man comes to Aboriginals land, claims Aboriginals are not as evolved as the white race, making them closer to apes than humans, therefore inferior to the white race.

Do you not see how Aboriginals find the word 'ape' offensive now?

 

[eays]

http://scienceblog.com/15428/americans-still-linking-blacks-to-apes/

Here's a start for you. It's not that hard to educate yourself mate.

Thanks but this link has nothing to do with connecting racist meaning to the word "ape" in any sort of meaningful historical way .... basically for me it falls to the fact that until less than 1 week ago "ape" was nowhere in the mainstream public psyche as being a racist term ... Until Goodes decided it was

A racist term is something that is derogatory based on race .... Ape is derogatory but not based on race and therefore not racist ... Even if the bow can drawn that it is derogatory to black people specifically (which I think at a gut level is where most people would agree this issue sits) , black is not a race and again by definition not racist

If people are inconsiderate dicks and use derogatory terms ( such as ape) to communicate then rather than jumping up and down claiming it is racist, society would be better off if we all got a bit thick skinned and saved these sorts of responses to things/people that are truly racist

 

[Squibbs]

I don't get how McGuires comments could be a slip of the tongue. Really? A few sentences is a slip?

 

[eays]

Far out. Do some research buddy, and before you say "Well how was the 13 yr old girl supposed to know that?". She didn't, which is why Adam Goodes spoke to her on the phone and educated her on the topic.

I'll say it to you as simple as possible.
White man comes to Aboriginals land, claims Aboriginals are not as evolved as the white race, making them closer to apes than humans, therefore inferior to the white race.

Do you not see how Aboriginals find the word 'ape' offensive now?

Show me documented examples in Australian history of ape being used as a racist term towards aboriginals and then you have a point (other than Goodes and the Andrew symonds thing a few years back).
There are many other terms which are well known (which I won't mention) but I've never heard ape (prior to last week)

IF this arises due to references in US history then I utterly reject that is not applicable (unless we are now as a society saying the new standard in racial sensitive is to require familiarity with derogatory terms used in every other culture )

 

[Grechy]

I am a believer that every person whether intentionally or not have made a racist comment or gesture in their lifetime. Be it joke or not. I am wog some of my best mates are anglo saxons. They call me wog I call them skip & at the end of the day we're all just really good mates. I tend to think that some races especially those who have been oppressed for a long time seem to carry on about every remark as if there's an underlying hatred there when most people don't really care if the color of your skin is different.

 

[chunkylover53]

Thanks but this link has nothing to do with connecting racist meaning to the word "ape" in any sort of meaningful historical way .... basically for me it falls to the fact that until less than 1 week ago "ape" was nowhere in the mainstream public psyche as being a racist term ... Until Goodes decided it was

A racist term is something that is derogatory based on race .... Ape is derogatory but not based on race and therefore not racist ... Even if the bow can drawn that it is derogatory to black people specifically (which I think at a gut level is where most people would agree this issue sits) , black is not a race and again by definition not racist

If people are inconsiderate dicks and use derogatory terms ( such as ape) to communicate then rather than jumping up and down claiming it is racist, society would be better off if we all got a bit thick skinned and saved these sorts of responses to things/people that are truly racist

You honestly have no idea buddy. Thick-skinned? Back to the good ol' days where Aboriginals were boo'd when they got the ball?

"Ape" has always been a racial slur, and always will be. When we took the Aboriginals land, we enslaved them and treated them as animals, because we genuinely thought they were. They were stupider than us, ferals unlike us and we genuinely thought they were a kind of ape, rather than a human. Causing them to be entirely inferior to us. Hence the invention of the racial slur.

It is absolutely shitting me to tears to see people saying "Jaston Dunstall gets called an ape, wheres his apology". FFS, do some history research, you will realise that fat, white men weren't discriminated against and in no way, shape or form called an Ape because they were viewed as completely inferior to the white man.

Whether you like it or not mate, "Ape" has always been a racial slur, along with plenty of other racial slurs you can think of. Just because you don't agree with it, and don't understand the meaning of it, doesn't mean Adam Goodes kicked up a fuss for no reason and "made it a racial slur" last week.

(Us/We = White Race).

 

[eays]

I am a believer that every person whether intentionally or not have made a racist comment or gesture in their lifetime. Be it joke or not. I am wog some of my best mates are anglo saxons. They call me wog I call them skip & at the end of the day we're all just really good mates. I tend to think that some races especially those who have been oppressed for a long time seem to carry on about every remark as if there's an underlying hatred there when most people don't really care if the color of your skin is different.

View attachment 19630

Well said

 

[chunkylover53]

Show me documented examples in Australian history of ape being used as a racist term towards aboriginals and then you have a point (other than Goodes and the Andrew symonds thing a few years back).
There are many other terms which are well known (which I won't mention) but I've never heard ape (prior to last week)

IF this arises due to references in US history then I utterly reject that is not applicable (unless we are now as a society saying the new standard in racial sensitive is to require familiarity with derogatory terms used in every other culture )

Documented examples? You think The First Fleet were updating their blogs while they were taking over the land? That is ridiculous to completely disregard references to US history, because racism towards Blacks started in the USA, chances are 90% of racial slurs would come from the slave days before the American Civil War.

So, if someone called an Aboriginal a n***r it's not applicable because it came from the US?

 

[tigerisland]

McGuire's position as President is untenable in my opinion. I am sure that Eddie is not a racist but it is not the point. He has pontificated and been so sanctimonious on this issue and it has blown up in his face. For reference remember Mark McInnes the former David Jones CEO who stepped down after claims of sexual harrasment 3 years ago? His were unsubstantiated claims and he never offered excuses like, being tired, missing his wife or he knows lots of women and that makes it OK. He did the honourable thing not by himself but the organisation and resigned.

An ape is a primitive human it is highly offensive and undoubtedly a racist comment. Eddie is bringing the game and his club (which has form on this issue) into disrepute. You cannot simply say I am sorry and it is all OK. There are consequences and numerous precedents have been set - I have sighted but one. If Eddie is genuinely sorry he will resign, it really is that simple.

For reference I work with a number of aboriginals in the mining industry, including at one stage having an aboriginal boss. If anyone in senior management made similar comments in a public forum they would be gone as they have not lived up to the company's values - Eddie clearly has not lived up to the AFL's.

 

[eays]

You honestly have no idea buddy. Thick-skinned? Back to the good ol' days where Aboriginals were boo'd when they got the ball?

"Ape" has always been a racial slur, and always will be. When we took the Aboriginals land, we enslaved them and treated them as animals, because we genuinely thought they were. They were stupider than us, ferals like us and we genuinely thought they were a kind of ape, rather than a human. Causing them to be entirely inferior to us. Hence the invention of the racial slur.

It is absolutely shitting me to tears to see people saying "Jaston Dunstall gets called an ape, wheres his apology". FFS, do some history research, you will realise that fat, white men weren't discriminated against and in no way, shape or form called an Ape because they were viewed as completely inferior to the white man.

Whether you like it or not mate, "Ape" has always been a racial slur, along with plenty of other racial slurs you can think of. Just because you don't agree with it, and don't understand the meaning of it, doesn't mean Adam Goodes kicked up a fuss for no reason and "made it a racial slur" last week.

(Us/We = White Race).

Good to see you are accustomed to free thinking, research and challenging what the media tells you think or how to react
Since you have based your assertions on concrete historical references to show that ape actually was racist prior to recent times then I guess there is nothing for me to say
Also since you base your comments on proven historical facts that we "enslaved" aboriginals are also without dispute I once again have nothing to say
Just may ask though, who is "we" in that context? My folks only arrived here in the 70s so have no connection to such events (if they happened) so don't include me in your apologist thinking

 

[chunkylover53]

Good to see you are accustomed to free thinking, research and challenging what the media tells you think or how to react
Since you have based your assertions on concrete historical references to show that ape actually was racist prior to recent times then I guess there is nothing for me to say
Also since you base your comments on proven historical facts that we "enslaved" aboriginals are also without dispute I once again have nothing to say
Just may ask though, who is "we" in that context? My folks only arrived here in the 70s so have no connection to such events (if they happened) so don't include me in your apologist thinking

No, my research and history classes have told me how to react, and I react in response to the facts, and those are the facts. From the few Aboriginals that were left, we treated them like animals., I have nothing to apologise for either as my family didn't arrive till a similar time.

IF they happened? Mate we took their land, enslaved the ones we could, r*ped their women and called them apes. Those are the facts, do some history research before you post maybe.

 

[eays]

Documented examples? You think The First Fleet were updating their blogs while they were taking over the land? That is ridiculous to completely disregard references to US history, because racism towards Blacks started in the USA, chances are 90% of racial slurs would come from the slave days before the American Civil War.

So, if someone called an Aboriginal a n***r it's not applicable because it came from the US?

To be clear, I'm not saying that the origin of the derogatory comment is determinative but rather whether it was previously used as a racist term in Australia .... So the n word is obviously racist .... Given that many people were not aware the ape was racist it seems obvious there must be doubt it was a racist term ... That said, assuming Goodes represents the views of a significant portion of aboriginals on this topic then from now on it probably is to be considered a racially charged term