Religion Why is Antisemitism such a big deal but hate against other religions not so much?

[Ohitsthatguy]

Is it because of the holocaust?

When does that cooldown end?

 

[Malifice]

Is it because of the holocaust?

The Holocaust was just the latest in a long (long) history of persecution of Jewish peoples, stretching back thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

You can't turn a corner in Europe (and I mean pretty much anywhere in Europe) without bumping into one of those history plaques talking about the place you're at being the site of the 'Synagogue burning of 874 AD' or 'this was the site of the Jewish Ghetto...' etc etc.

And of course, there are the 'stumbling stones' set in the footpath of Germany (and elsewhere) out the front of the former house of a victim of the Shoah (and there are literally hundreds of thousands of them).

That's just Europe. It started in antiquity:



Jewish people have been the scapegoats for pretty much every single conspiracy theory known to man (still true to this day) and have been regularly persecuted for it as a consequence (various pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, forced into Ghettos, forced out of cities, burnt and killed en masse etc).

Islamophobia is probably the next big form of religious (and pseudo ethnic) bigotry, but (unlike Antisemitism) generally doesnt place Muslims at the center of dozens of plots for world domination and generally hasn't led to the same kinds of mass exterminations, expulsions, discrimination and pogroms that have been directed at Jewish people.

And of course, many Muslims hold a very dim view of Jewish people, and a not insignificant amount also cling to blatant Antisemitism (the leaders of Iran, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc repeatedly spruike Antisemitic tropes, including Holocaust denial and 'Zionist world order' type nonsense.

 

[evolved2]

Antisemitism is hate against an ethnic group rather than a religion.

 

[Malifice]

Antisemitism is hate against an ethnic group rather than a religion.

No its not. 'Jewish' is both an ethnicity and a religion.

Rothschilds/ Blood libel/ Qanon/ ZOG/ Judeo Bolshevism/ Cultural Marxism/ WEF/ 9-11/ Sov Cit etc etc antisemitic conspiracies are all directed at Jewish people generally, no matter their skin color.

 

[evolved2]

No its not. 'Jewish' is both an ethnicity and a religion.

Rothschilds/ Blood libel/ Qanon/ ZOG/ Judeo Bolshevism/ Cultural Marxism/ WEF/ 9-11/ Sov Cit etc etc antisemitic conspiracies are all directed at Jewish people generally, no matter their skin color.

True, but it's unique among the Abrahamic religions in the respect that it's both an ethnicity and religion.

The term 'Islamophobic' refers to a fear of ideology (Islam) rather than a people group (Muslims). I'm sure we've had this discussion before - there's nothing irrational about fearing irrational ideology. What's next, MAGAphobics?

 

[Malifice]

The term 'Islamophobic' refers to a fear of ideology (Islam) rather than a people group (Muslims).

Except Muslims have the ideology an Islamophobe is afraid of, so they're caught up in the same bullshit.

It's the same thing.

You cant hate or fear the Catholic faith, and yet be cool with Catholics can you?

 

[evolved2]

Except Muslims have the ideology an Islamophobe is afraid of, so they're caught up in the same bullshit.

It's the same thing.

You cant hate or fear the Catholic faith, and yet be cool with Catholics can you?

I'd argue that you can be cool with Muslims/Catholics while fearing their faith if you view them as victims of a cult. That's pretty much how I was taught to view others during my time as a Christian - love the sinner, hate the sin.

Is it possible for a rational and informed non-theist to not fear theism?

 

[Malifice]

I'd argue that you can be cool with Muslims/Catholics while fearing their faith if you view them as victims of a cult. That's pretty much how I was taught to view others during my time as a Christian - love the sinner, hate the sin.

Is it possible for a rational and informed non-theist to not fear theism?

I'm an Atheist and I don't fear theism. I envy it to some degree.

 

[evolved2]

I'm an Atheist and I don't fear theism. I envy it to some degree.

I was happier as a theist. Ignorance is bliss.

Irrational beliefs should be feared, whether they be anti-scientific, conspiracy, religious, or other imho. The future of our species and planet depends on reason and science rather than people of faith who are loyal to sky pixies.

 

[Malifice]

Irrational beliefs should be feared.

I dont fear those with irrational beliefs. You're describing 99 odd percent of the population of the planet there.

 

[carltonchelsea]

I'm an Atheist and I don't fear theism. I envy it to some degree.

If you were a Palestinian living in Gaza you would.
If you were a Jew in Europe in the 1930’s you would have been.
I could fill several pages with the same examples, to think otherwise is being incredibly naive or disingenuous.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

It's because Jewish people have been adopted as white by establishment politicians who are inherently white supremacist. Due to this, the establishment will take the side of Jewish people and uphold them as a treasured minority to always defend, whereas every other religion apart from Christianity is mostly practiced by brown people, so they can be the object of fear and suspicion. This manifests most obviously in support for Israel no matter what they do, but also in speaking out against perceived antisemitism before any other discrimination.

The figures making up the conservative side of the establishment changed when Trump took over, but many of them, like Trump himself, were very happy to continue the white supremacy and placate the Israel lobby. To a lesser extent, Afrikaners have been embraced in a similar way by Trump and Dutton as needing asylum more than every other group in the world.

There is now a backlash against this taking place within the MAGA movement. The problem is it's led by actual neo-Nazis like Nick Fuentes, and they will disgust too many people with their open Nazism to gain that much traction. So I predict Judaism will remain the golden child of white Western conservatives.

 

[QuietB]

Because the "Lobby" has the biggest and loudest and most effective megaphone on earth.

 

[Cactus_]

Is it because of the holocaust?

When does that cooldown end?

1/ Agree with everything that Malifice wrote, the holocaust, the pogroms, and a history of violent discrimination dating back a couple of thousand years

2/ When does it end? Do you mean when do people “get over” something like the holocaust? Not in your lifetime or my lifetime. Probably not for hundreds of years.

 

[evolved2]

It's because Jewish people have been adopted as white by establishment politicians who are inherently white supremacist. Due to this, the establishment will take the side of Jewish people and uphold them as a treasured minority to always defend, whereas every other religion apart from Christianity is mostly practiced by brown people, so they can be the object of fear and suspicion. This manifests most obviously in support for Israel no matter what they do, but also in speaking out against perceived antisemitism before any other discrimination.

The figures making up the conservative side of the establishment changed when Trump took over, but many of them, like Trump himself, were very happy to continue the white supremacy and placate the Israel lobby. To a lesser extent, Afrikaners have been embraced in a similar way by Trump and Dutton as needing asylum more than every other group in the world.

There is now a backlash against this taking place within the MAGA movement. The problem is it's led by actual neo-Nazis like Nick Fuentes, and they will disgust too many people with their open Nazism to gain that much traction. So I predict Judaism will remain the golden child of white Western conservatives.

White supremacy has little to do with it. Christianity was born in Israel from the roots of Judaism and large parts of the new testament reference it in a positive light, so it's hardly surprising to see Christians adopt Judaism. Some Christians think of themselves as Jews by faith, and call themselves messianic Jews.

There's no fear of 'brown people' religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

 

[schneebly111]

There's no fear of 'brown people' religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

A little bit of western centrism there. A lot of repression targeting Kashmiris in India and the Rohingya in Myanmar from Hindu and Buddhist governments.

 

[evolved2]

A little bit of western centrism there. A lot of repression targeting Kashmiris in India and the Rohingya in Myanmar from Hindu and Buddhist governments.

That's out of context to the post I was replying to.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

White supremacy has little to do with it.

Well, I disagree. Note that a lot of Palestinian Arabs are Christians, yet many Western Christians seem completely indifferent to the suffering of their co-religionists, if not actively hostile to them.

Did you know that many Orthodox Jews in Israel like to spit at Christians or on churches, and defend their behaviour by claiming it's a traditional Jewish custom to spit at Christians?

Outrage over Jerusalem video of ultra-Orthodox Jews spitting as Christians pass

Intimidating behaviour beside procession of worshippers seen as another sign of victimisation and was condemned by Netanyahu

www.theguardian.com

And do Western Christians care? Is the mistreatment of Christians in Palestine even reported much in Western media outside of papers like the Guardian that are perceived as left-wing? No! More money for Israel! If that means adding more to the giant US debt pile, so be it, nothing's too good for Israel!

So a question we should ask is, why don't they care about Palestinian Christians? It's the same reason they care about a few Afrikaner farmers being murdered but didn't care about Christians being massacred in Sudan before South Sudan broke away: they feel white lives are important, but brown and black lives are not. It helps greatly that most Jews in Israel descended from European Jewish populations. If they were mostly descended from Ethiopian Jews, I reckon the West would be much, much less sympathetic and willing to offer so much military support.

Christianity was born in Israel from the roots of Judaism and large parts of the new testament reference it in a positive light, so it's hardly surprising to see Christians adopt Judaism. Some Christians think of themselves as Jews by faith, and call themselves messianic Jews.

You are aware Christian nations have been the biggest antisemites throughout history, right? From the Crusades to Martin Luther to the Tsarist pogroms to the Holocaust.

There's no fear of 'brown people' religions like Hinduism and Buddhism.

Both are basically being shielded by Islam being the lightning rod for fear of outside religions. If there were zero Muslims in Australia, you'd see much more ire directed towards these religions.

 

[evolved2]

Well, I disagree. Note that a lot of Palestinian Arabs are Christians, yet many Western Christians seem completely indifferent to the suffering of their co-religionists, if not actively hostile to them.

Agreed.

Did you know that many Orthodox Jews in Israel like to spit at Christians or on churches, and defend their behaviour by claiming it's a traditional Jewish custom to spit at Christians?

Outrage over Jerusalem video of ultra-Orthodox Jews spitting as Christians pass

Intimidating behaviour beside procession of worshippers seen as another sign of victimisation and was condemned by Netanyahu

www.theguardian.com

I'm aware.

And do Western Christians care? Is the mistreatment of Christians in Palestine even reported much in Western media outside of papers like the Guardian that are perceived as left-wing? No! More money for Israel! If that means adding more to the giant US debt pile, so be it, nothing's too good for Israel!

I understand why Christianity favours Israel. The bible commands white Christians to view Israel as their friend.

So a question we should ask is, why don't they care about Palestinian Christians? It's the same reason they care about a few Afrikaner farmers being murdered but didn't care about Christians being massacred in Sudan before South Sudan broke away: they feel white lives are important, but brown and black lives are not. It helps greatly that most Jews in Israel descended from European Jewish populations. If they were mostly descended from Ethiopian Jews, I reckon the West would be much, much less sympathetic and willing to offer so much military support.

Fair point.

You are aware Christian nations have been the biggest antisemites throughout history, right? From the Crusades to Martin Luther to the Tsarist pogroms to the Holocaust.

True.

Both are basically being shielded by Islam being the lightning rod for fear of outside religions. If there were zero Muslims in Australia, you'd see much more ire directed towards these religions.

Disagree. Islam is a cane toad.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I'm aware.

Okay. Well that's a big reason I think there are racial roots to this. If it were European-descended Christians that Israeli Jews were spitting on, I think the reception would be quite different.

I understand why Christianity favours Israel. The bible commands white Christians to view Israel as their friend.

The biblical Israel is not the current Israel. Constantine was the first Christian Roman emperor and he drove lots of Jews out of Palestine and into Europe. And all the other subsequent Christian persecution of Jews I mentioned. Did white Christians only start reading their bibles after 1600 years? Because otherwise you'd think they would have noticed at some point that God commanded them to treat the Jews well.

Disagree. Islam is a cane toad.

What does this mean?

 

[Number37]

The Holocaust was just the latest in a long (long) history of persecution of Jewish peoples, stretching back thousands of years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

You can't turn a corner in Europe (and I mean pretty much anywhere in Europe) without bumping into one of those history plaques talking about the place you're at being the site of the 'Synagogue burning of 874 AD' or 'this was the site of the Jewish Ghetto...' etc etc.

And of course, there are the 'stumbling stones' set in the footpath of Germany (and elsewhere) out the front of the former house of a victim of the Shoah (and there are literally hundreds of thousands of them).

That's just Europe. It started in antiquity:



Jewish people have been the scapegoats for pretty much every single conspiracy theory known to man (still true to this day) and have been regularly persecuted for it as a consequence (various pogroms, the Inquisition, the Crusades, the Holocaust, forced into Ghettos, forced out of cities, burnt and killed en masse etc).

Islamophobia is probably the next big form of religious (and pseudo ethnic) bigotry, but (unlike Antisemitism) generally doesnt place Muslims at the center of dozens of plots for world domination and generally hasn't led to the same kinds of mass exterminations, expulsions, discrimination and pogroms that have been directed at Jewish people.

And of course, many Muslims hold a very dim view of Jewish people, and a not insignificant amount also cling to blatant Antisemitism (the leaders of Iran, and Hezbollah, Hamas etc repeatedly spruike Antisemitic tropes, including Holocaust denial and 'Zionist world order' type nonsense.

1/

Mono-culture/Mono-religion has been the primary go-to of conquerors since day dot.
The idea that Jews have been subjected to anything more, or less, than any other minority is the stuff of Hollywood fantasy.

The African people ( for starters) have endured, and continue to endure, far worse than the Jews ever have.
The idea that anti-semitism is a just response to the worst treatment of a people ever, is laughable.


2/

The same people that cry antisemitism at every turn, are the one that love to perpetuate antisemitic tropes.
Look at the evidence in the Antionette Lattouf case. They brag about how they influence the world and how much they love how people talk about their perceived money and power.

 

[Malifice]

The idea that Jews have been subjected to anything more, or less, than any other minority is the stuff of Hollywood fantasy.

That is utter nonsense.

Jewish people have been subject to repeated pogroms, persecution, expulsions (including from Israel, their ancestral homeland) and flat-out genocide and massacres (among them the Inquisition, and the Crusades), culminating in the Holocaust. There is hardly a city in Europe (or the Middle East) that hasn't had its Jewish population expelled or massacred.

In fact I dont think there is a single one.

That's before you consider that virtually every single conspiracy in the world (Sov Cit, Qanon, New World Order, WEF/ WHO, COVID, 9/11, JFK etc etc) are all blamed on 'the Jews' even to this day.

Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Christians and Muslims have not been subject to the same systemic, repeated persecution, which stretches back for over 2 millennia.

Denying (or downplaying) the above is a form of antisemitism itself, and as a word of warning, I won't tolerate it in this thread.

It's partly why the current genocide against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel is (amongst its horror) so ****ing ironic. A people that has collectively been subject to so much genocide, apartheid, expulsions and so forth, and being walled into ghettoes, is currently doing the exact same to another ethnic and religious minority.

 

[Number37]

That is utter nonsense.

Jewish people have been subject to repeated pogroms, persecution, expulsions (including from Israel, their ancestral homeland) and flat-out genocide and massacres (among them the Inquisition, and the Crusades), culminating in the Holocaust. There is hardly a city in Europe (or the Middle East) that hasn't had its Jewish population expelled or massacred.

In fact I dont think there is a single one.

That's before you consider that virtually every single conspiracy in the world (Sov Cit, Qanon, New World Order, WEF/ WHO, COVID, 9/11, JFK etc etc) are all blamed on 'the Jews' even to this day.

Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Christians and Muslims have not been subject to the same systemic, repeated persecution, which stretches back for over 2 millennia.

Denying (or downplaying) the above is a form of antisemitism itself, and as a word of warning, I won't tolerate it in this thread.

It's partly why the current genocide against the Palestinian people by the State of Israel is (amongst its horror) so ****ing ironic. A people that has collectively been subject to so much genocide, apartheid, expulsions and so forth, and being walled into ghettoes, is currently doing the exact same to another ethnic and religious minority.

I never said they weren't subjected to horrors.
I am not talking about conspiracy theories.
I am talking about facts.
The Jewish people have been subjected to no worse than billions of other people.

Tell us which African people have been treated better than the Jews?
The answer is none.
They've had all their wealth plundered. To this day, that plundering continues.
They've been subjected to genocide and ethnic cleansing here, there and everywhere.
The African people have been left to starve for most of the last at least 50 years.

It's not antisemitism to point out the fact that there are people other than Jews that have suffered all kinds of horrors.

 

[evolved2]

Okay. Well that's a big reason I think there are racial roots to this. If it were European-descended Christians that Israeli Jews were spitting on, I think the reception would be quite different.


The biblical Israel is not the current Israel. Constantine was the first Christian Roman emperor and he drove lots of Jews out of Palestine and into Europe. And all the other subsequent Christian persecution of Jews I mentioned. Did white Christians only start reading their bibles after 1600 years? Because otherwise you'd think they would have noticed at some point that God commanded them to treat the Jews well.


What does this mean?

It means that not all religions are the same. Some are more dangerous than others, as judged by the following (in no particular order):
1. Willingness of adherents to integrate within societies that hold different beliefs and values.
2. Acceptance of womens rights.
3. Acceptance of LGBTQ rights.
4. Valuing secularism.
5. Acceptance of science.
6. Promotion/opposition to fundamentalism.
7. Mechanism of reproduction (eg proselytizing).
8. Acceptance of the validity of opposition.
9. Penalties for religious disaffiliation.

I disagree with your idea about Hinduism and Buddhism.

I'd argue that hate against Christianity is much more socially acceptable than hate against Islam.

 

[Number37]

Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Jews

Read:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa


The Romans, Christians, Muslims, the Atlantic slave trade.
How many centuries is that?


10 million African slaves just in the Trans-atlantic slave trade.
10 million

Also read:

https://www.theguardian.com/global-...ring-africa-wealth-billions-of-dollars-a-year

Aisha Dodwell, a campaigner for Global Justice Now, said: “There’s such a powerful narrative in western societies that Africa is poor and that it needs our help. This research shows that what African countries really need is for the rest of the world to stop systematically looting them. While the form of colonial plunder may have changed over time, its basic nature remains unchanged.”