Williamstown

[MarkT]

If MM doesn't hate c1 then he is a damn fine actor because he has me convinced.

A lot of coaches have the favorite players, the projects and their "disliked" players. MM has had Davis, Lokan, Williams and Morrison in the group that has had more than their share of opportunities and Scotland and C1 are two in the category who have had to work harder than most to get a game. Scotland in 2002 and 2003 struggled for half a season with good VFL performances before forcing his way and performing well enough to remain for the finals.

Cloke has well and truly had good enough VFL form. Maybe he isn’t good enough but his 3 games this year have been unfair reflections of his capabilities because of the roles he has had and 2005 was much the same. He played a very good game on Hamil only to be matched against Pavlich in a game where everyone got smashed and he got dropped the net week.

I can’t believe Rupe was a discard while a few others were retained and others recruited.

 

[guess_who]

I agree with most of what you have said Mark but out of the current crop of players, in your opinion who would you rather have as defenders. Tall and medium defenders that is. Given that you need at least two, maybe three depending on the opposition and at the very most four.

Out of - Prestie, Wakelin, Clement, Maxwell, O'brien, Cloke and Walker assuming all are 100% fit who would you pick?

 

[eddiesmith]

If Malthouse hated Jason cloke because of the 2003 GF do you really think he would still be on our list after the poor season he had last year?he may hate him but I am not sure how you can quote this as gospel without being at the clib?? Malthouse could have easily got rid of him but gave him another chance. It amazes me how many people on this site seem to know exactly what`a relationship is like between a player and coach . Are you in the inner sanctum??

Are you in the inner sanctum? Can you tell us for sure he doesnt? No you cannot because you have no ****ing idea. Why is he still on the list? Contract and Eddie, MM just constantly ignores him and even walks straight past him when he is trying to talk to him

Cloke can only play as a backman in my opinion and at the moment Clement, Presti, Wakelin and Maxwell are all preffered options and I personally believe there is only room for 3 of these against most sides let alone 4. When we have gone in with 4 tallish backman we have looked top heavy. Would you play Cloke ahead of any of these 4 assuming all are fit to play.

Wakelin has been in poor form lately and is likely gone at the end of the year, so we are basically going to lose 2 good defenders because Mick treats 1 like **** and the other will retire leaving our great backline depth non existant, but I guess when you hate a player you would rather he go than have depth?

Jason got picked in the first game and got found out big time even though he was in tip top condition. His second game was also average, his 3rd was respectable but in no way did he stand out.

I admire anyone who gets the best out of themselves and I think Jason is in this class, but I am a realist and every way I look at it I struggle to find a spot for him unless 2 injuries happen to 2 of the 4 players I mentioned.

Can you tell me how you plan on getting him in our best 22 without upsetting the balance of the side??

Yeah he was picked in the first game and was played as a wing man on a quicker and bigger opponent, why? Burton is the type who Lonie would traditionally take but Mick decided to put Jason on him, Why?

You could very easily play Jason, Wakes, Presti and Clement in the same team as Clement can take any sized defender and most sides play a loose man in defence against us so 1 of them can be our loose man

 

[ant22]

Are you in the inner sanctum? Can you tell us for sure he doesnt? No you cannot because you have no ****ing idea. Why is he still on the list? Contract and Eddie, MM just constantly ignores him and even walks straight past him when he is trying to talk to him



Wakelin has been in poor form lately and is likely gone at the end of the year, so we are basically going to lose 2 good defenders because Mick treats 1 like **** and the other will retire leaving our great backline depth non existant, but I guess when you hate a player you would rather he go than have depth?



Yeah he was picked in the first game and was played as a wing man on a quicker and bigger opponent, why? Burton is the type who Lonie would traditionally take but Mick decided to put Jason on him, Why?

You could very easily play Jason, Wakes, Presti and Clement in the same team as Clement can take any sized defender and most sides play a loose man in defence against us so 1 of them can be our loose man

No FU^&King idea hey. Having seen some of the crap that you post on here I can't beleive you have the nerve to say anyone has no idea.

Before you reply you might want to take the time to read a post. In mine I stated that Mick MAY NOT LIKE JASON. So to answer your question -I am not in the inner sanctum, never have been and never will be. I was asking Lonie the question because it seemed to me that he was saying as gospel that Mick Hates Jason going back to 2003. I don't know if he does or dosn't but it does suprise me if Mick hates him and yet he is still on our list, does this not suprise you??
There are only ever 22 spots on a teamsheet on any given week. 38 does not go into 22 . I like Jason, I like the way he has a crack and feel a bit sorry for him that he cannot get a gig . Having said that I have seen enough of Jason over the last few years to form an opinion that he is not in our best 22 and I do not think against most side that there is room for presti, clement, cloke and wakelin. Not the way footy is played these days anyway. And I reckon on the few times this year we have gone that tall we have been beaten and looked slow and top heavy. Since yo are such an expert can you name a side that has 4 match ups for these players and name those players, because I am struggling to think of one. I would also hate to think our selection committee picks a side assuming one of our key defenders will be a loose man.

These are my opinions , and in time I believe I will be proven right by the fact that Jason will not play to many more games in his AFL career(less than 30 more games) I actually hope I am proven wrong because I think jason is a natural old fashioned footballer but this is my opinion on jason and I am entitled to it. Lonie is entilted to his opinion and I respect it, as are you. But I do not think a football coach like Malthouse would deliberately play someone out of possition so he can drop him the next week . I also know that many people (both collingwood supporters and football experts) share my opinion on jasons future and his capabilities , I take it these people all know nothing either????

 

[eddiesmith]

No they dont, because I can guarantee you Jason will play another 100-150 AFL games, unlikely to be more than 5 more for the Pies but he will be picked up elsewhere and play AFL footy as he is good enough to for the next 6-8 years and show Mick up. I can confirm 100% fact Mick treats him like **** and it all started in 2003

There is no doubt in my mind he is AFL quality and he will show that to morons like you and all others who think he is so **** as he is unlucky we have depth, but in 12 months time our backline will be weak if we get 1 injury because our depth will be gone, then maybe some morons would admit they were wrong seeing Jason playing top footy for another AFL club whilst we miss him because Mick ****ed him off when we needed him

 

[PieLebo87]

No they dont, because I can guarantee you Jason will play another 100-150 AFL games, unlikely to be more than 5 more for the Pies but he will be picked up elsewhere and play AFL footy as he is good enough to for the next 6-8 years and show Mick up. I can confirm 100% fact Mick treats him like **** and it all started in 2003

There is no doubt in my mind he is AFL quality and he will show that to morons like you and all others who think he is so **** as he is unlucky we have depth, but in 12 months time our backline will be weak if we get 1 injury because our depth will be gone, then maybe some morons would admit they were wrong seeing Jason playing top footy for another AFL club whilst we miss him because Mick ****ed him off when we needed him

Agreed, 2 of our 3 best backmen are aging, once Presti and Wakes retire we need the likes of J Cloke who hsa experience and has played in the pressures of the AFL to step up and he will if given the chance, he can easily fill Prestis role within two years or so.

 

[ant22]

No they dont, because I can guarantee you Jason will play another 100-150 AFL games, unlikely to be more than 5 more for the Pies but he will be picked up elsewhere and play AFL footy as he is good enough to for the next 6-8 years and show Mick up. I can confirm 100% fact Mick treats him like **** and it all started in 2003

There is no doubt in my mind he is AFL quality and he will show that to morons like you and all others who think he is so **** as he is unlucky we have depth, but in 12 months time our backline will be weak if we get 1 injury because our depth will be gone, then maybe some morons would admit they were wrong seeing Jason playing top footy for another AFL club whilst we miss him because Mick ****ed him off when we needed him

You really do sound like and angry and arrogant little man, or perhaps you are David Cloke.

Can you tell me the tatts numbers this saturday?? or who is going to win the third at Sale?? you obviously have special powers if you can GUARANTEE he will play 100-150 games. I cant Guarantee he will play less than 30 but it is my opinion he will play less than 30 but if you are not mature enough to except that others may have an opinion different than yours then you really do need to grow up. Actually judging by your manner I suspect your only about 15 so you must have alot of growing up to do, good luck with the rest of pubity, enjoy it as it is the best time of your life....

Oh and if this is David cloke, I understand you passion. come to think of it you must be David . How else would you know so much about what goes on inside the club because with quotes like "I can confirm 100% fact Mick treats him like **** and it all started in 2003" . Only someone who is either at the club or is very close friends or a relative of jasons would know this.

As for Jason-Once again in english- I hope to be proven wrong and I do not think your **** I just dont think you are quite good enough for modern day football. But if you do play 100-150 games I will be as happy for you as anyone

 

[eddiesmith]

Wow, for the first time in this thread you got something right

 

[ant22]

Wow, for the first time in this thread you got something right

Ah theres that arrogance again.

You see something is only right or wrong when it is fact and not opinion therefore on the subject of Jason Cloke neither of us got something right and neither of us got something wrong. Opinions are not right and not wrong , they are opinions.

Thats the point I am trying to make but clearly you don't get it.

So you are either David Cloke or your 15??

which is it??

 

[eddiesmith]

Ah theres that arrogance again.

You see something is only right or wrong when it is fact and not opinion therefore on the subject of Jason Cloke neither of us got something right and neither of us got something wrong. Opinions are not right and not wrong , they are opinions.

Thats the point I am trying to make but clearly you don't get it.

So you are either David Cloke or your 15??

which is it??

None of the above

 

[cisco]

Ant 22,

I suppose you would prefer Hall or Walker before J Cloke.

 

[ant22]

Ant 22,

I suppose you would prefer Hall or Walker before J Cloke.

Did I write that somewhere?? why would you even ask?

No Walker should have been delisted 2 years ago(once again IMO) and Hall last year(IMO)

I beleive we have maxwell ,Obrien who are similar heights to jason but are alot quicker and more athletic therefore suit the modern game, they have also been in the system for less time so I beleive they have alot more development. Hopefully young Anthony can develop and we should also have presti and Clement around for a few more years yet. They days of having to have 3 or 4 strong defenders are gone. Forwards are alot quicker, leaner and more athletic. This is not jasons fault and I actually think it is not a good thing for the game. Although it is something I have accepted as the evolution of football.

 

[ant22]

None of the above

that would make you are friend and relo or you work at the club. I seriously doubt it is the last one so a friend a relative or a Bull***** artist

If you are going to claim to know things 100% factual atleast have the courage to tell us why??

 

[eddiesmith]

that would make you are friend and relo or you work at the club. I seriously doubt it is the last one so a friend a relative or a Bull***** artist

If you are going to claim to know things 100% factual atleast have the courage to tell us why??

Because I dont feel the need to repeat myself 1000 times

 

[Murray]

Wow, for the first time in this thread you got something right

What? You are David Cloke?

 

[ant22]

Because I dont feel the need to repeat myself 1000 times

Repeat youself?? I don't follow. If you know jason or are a relo While not agreeing with your way of getting a point accross I can understand it, if not you have no excuse.

I don't sit on bigfooty all day everyday so if you have stated this before I have not seen it. But I do believe if you are going to get involved in a passionate debate and claim things that most people on here could only possibly have opinions on then you should atleast have the guts to tell us why you know this or who your source is otherwise you have no credibility. I have stated my points as nothing more than an opinion but you are being very matter of fact.

 

[guess_who]

Eddie, where do you see cloke fitting in with Presti, Wakelin, Maxwell, Obrien and Clement all of which have been prefered of Jason. All of which are tall or medium defenders, how many tall/medium defenders do you feel we need on a weekly basis given we can only pick 22 players?

 

[ant22]

Ant 22,

You must be joking. J.Cloke has played 3 games this year. Played on the wing against Adelaide opposed to Burton, CHF/Ruck against West Coast and on Pavlich against Fremantle.

I find it amazing that MM can keep selecting blokes like Morrison and select Rusling whose form was ordinary for Williamstown.

Why not play J Cloke and give him a fair dinkum opportunity against one of the lower teams to give him some confidence.

I have followed Williamstown for a long time and I can say without hesitation J Cloke has been our best player by a mile.

I hope if MM does not give him a go that he will be traded and will show MM the player he really is.

With all respect Cisco some players are very good vfl players and struggle to take the step up to AFL.

Agreed on Morrison but he has a different role, but for what its worth i would much rather see rhyce shaw in ahead of morrison. Rusling was a suprise selection but once again a different role and he is very talanted.

Where do you suggest he play? and who's spot should he take?. you have named 3 possies he has played and don't seem to be happy with any of them .His problem is he has not been able to hold down 1 possie. If you cant do that you need to be versatile and you have pretty much stated that he is not with your comments.

 

[cisco]

Ant 22,

You obviously cannot read.

I simply made the point he has been given three opportunities this year two against possible grand finalists PLAYING OUT OF POSITION and one against Pavlich probably one of the best forwards in the game. You do not have to tell me the only position he can play is as a defender we all know that.

If you read my post I suggested that he play against a "lower placed team" and be left on the ground and gain confidence rather than the first one to be dragged and dropped because of so called better players who in a similar position are left on the ground and not dropped.

 

[MarkT]

Out of - Prestie, Wakelin, Clement, Maxwell, O'brien, Cloke and Walker assuming all are 100% fit who would you pick?

Not sure O'Brien is a better option than Cloke just yet but Maxwell is. Presti and Wakelin pick themselves. Clement isn't really a tall and play with any combination. Sure as hell if you play C1 on Burton or in the ruck/chf you are asking for trouble though. Try Maxwell or O'Brien in those roles and see what happens. Hell try Wakelin or Presti in those roles.

 

[ant22]

Ant 22,

You obviously cannot read.

I simply made the point he has been given three opportunities this year two against possible grand finalists PLAYING OUT OF POSITION and one against Pavlich probably one of the best forwards in the game. You do not have to tell me the only position he can play is as a defender we all know that.

If you read my post I suggested that he play against a "lower placed team" and be left on the ground and gain confidence rather than the first one to be dragged and dropped because of so called better players who in a similar position are left on the ground and not dropped.

Not sure how you came to the conclusion I cannot read because I know exactly what you meant. You are saying he should not be played on the wing, ruck, chf and should not be played on one of the games best forwards(not 100% sure on the last one but thats what it seems you are suggesting). I can read perfectly but thanks fo suggesting I can't. I just don't happen to agree.

What you seem to be suggesting is the Mick Malthouse takes a 5 year player who has played 50 odd games and not play him on a gun forward, not play him against a good side, not play him play him up the ground. You Can't play him as a loose defender because coaches simply puch another gun back there who runs riot. With all respect Cisco you are living in a dream world. 5 year players to not deserve cushy rides. I think your suggestions are crazy and there is no way any side but in particular a tp 4 side at this time of the year should feel the need to ease a 5 year player into form by playing them against lower sides and try and match them up against an average opponent. This is of course just my opinion(sorry but some around here dont know the dif between opinion and fact)

What I can't understand is why you feel the need to question my views when they are very clearly written in black and white in about 5 different posts on this very thread. I could not be clearer in my opinion on cloke. I have also gone to the effort of stating that I admire cloke and the way he goes about his business. I simply believe that with the way the game has gone and with most forwards being athletes that it is hard to find a role for him and he is a victim of modern day football. I think it is sad for the game. I have also said I hope to be proven wrong because I would love to see cloke have a career.

You may see alot of willi games but i am not sure how many Collingwood games you see but our backlined has been the most settled part of the side for a while now. You just don't drop someone to make way for him. It is much easier for jason to find a matchup on a vfl ground than it is in afl. There is also alot less space for forwards to lead into in Vfl therefore limiting the chance of jason to get burnt on a lead.

Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstandings about my opinion on cloke. And remember it is just and opinion and does not mean anything.

If I knew so many of jasons family and friends where on this site I would not have caused such a storm.

Good luck Jason

 

[ant22]

where have you gone eddie? mid-debate you just leave me in the lurch. Surely its not like you to back out of a lively debate. I was having so much fun.

Come on eddie , what is it, family member? friend? bullsh$t artist or are you actually jason??

As I said you can't go around claiming things as 100% fact and not back them up.

I am not asking you to expose yourself, simply let me know if you know jason. And when I ask if you know him I mean know him well.

 

[eddiesmith]

Friend, where did I go? Someone was downloading a massive file to internet was so slow I couldnt be stuffed using it anymore

 

[Murray]

Friend, where did I go? Someone was downloading a massive file to internet was so slow I couldnt be stuffed using it anymore

pr0n?

 

[ant22]

Friend, where did I go? Someone was downloading a massive file to internet was so slow I couldnt be stuffed using it anymore

So he is a friend, i suspected as much. So its fair ro say you are being a little biased in your views.

I respect your loyality to Jason, its a good quality to have in a friend. I think if you read over all my posts you will see that other to say I don't think jason will make it in modern day football I have been quite glowing in my praise for the way he goes about his business. I have and always will respect people who give 100%.
Can I ask you a question, has Mick actually told Jason he hates him? I would also suspect Jason probably dislikes Mick more than the other way around(i could be wrong, once again a suspection) It is only normal for a player who thinks they are getting a rough go to dislike their coach. Its happens at every level of football. Now if Lonie had come out and said "Mick does not think Jason is up to it and has written him off as a footballer" Their would be no arguments from me. Hate is such a strong word and I reckon it is pretty unfair for anyone to say that someone else hates someone with actually hearing them say it. Do you catch my drift??
One last thing. Being a mate of an Afl footballer means you are always going to hear different points of view on that person. I got the sense(by you saying i have no ***!ng idea) that you took my comments personally. My views where very objective and while I have not problem with you disagreeing it might not be a bad idea to take criticism of jason as a footballer with a grain of salt. Collingwood probably has about half a million supporters and I reckon about 50% dont reckon he will make it and 50% reckon he will. Thats a truck load of people to be angry at because they have a different opinion.
Maybe save your anger for those who actually come out and personally criticise the guy(ie saying he is a moron who is a waste of space). Because there will still be plenty of those morons out there to be *****ed off at.

Anyway I enjoyed the debate last night. I have a newborn I was trying to settle and it kept me sane in between breaks.

Seriously, I do hope he proves me wrong...