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aneale said:
bahahahahah, what fantasy world do you live in? For starters, Flintoff's batting average is 31.77 and his bowling average is 32.78. Rule 1, try and average more with the bat than ball.

so better than him? And that would be;

Ian Botham: 5200 runs (33.54) (14 test centuries)and 383 wickets (28.40)
Imran Khan: 3807 runs (37.69) (6) and 362 wickets (22.87)
Chris Cairns: 3320 runs (33.53) (5) and 218 wickets (29.40)
Jacques Kallis: 10401 runs (54.74) (32) and 258 wickets (31.10)

and those are just the ones who beat him in both batting and bowling. Then we get onto the guys who were slightly lesser batsmen (in averages only, not in reality) but so far superior bowlers it's not funny, so much so they are statistically far superior allrounders to him.

Richard Hadlee: 3124 runs (27.16) (2) and 431 wickets (22.29)
Wasim Akram: 2898 runs (22.69) (3) and 414 wickets (23.62)
Kapil Dev: 5248 runs (31.05) (8) and 434 wickets (29.64)

Lets put it in perspective. He was a dead set gun on the days when it went his way IN ENGLAND and **** all elsewhere, he struggled unless playing Zim or Bangladesh outside of his home comfort. He is typical of most English cricketers of the last 30 years, deadset lucky to be born in England or blokes not good enough to make it in their own country and go to England because they are so poor.

I stand by it, he's at least 8th (and comfortably) in line of what I've seen, nowhere near the player between the ears or in talent. No more of a big game player than Khan, Dev, Botham or Hadlee and had far less expectation on him from the country than those 4 guys ever did. You clearly don't remember them given your list of 12. Nor does it put him within cooee of guys like Sobers and Miller who I didn't see.
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There's even more garbage here that in your first post. Quite a feat!

So you bag him, yet at the same time out of all the thousands of test cricketers who have ever played you then admit he is possibly the 8th best allrounder of all time. You bag him and then give him an absolutely massive wrap. And you list four of the greatest cricketers of all time as 'evidence' that he's grossly over-rated. What the hell are you on about?

He is never mentioned as a better player than the great allrounders you've listed. Ever. By anyone. Ever. Not once. In the history of cricket by a single person. So where does your over-rated tag come from?

Do you make a habit of peddling popular BigFooty Accepted Wisdoms? Let me guess. Mitchell Johnson can't bowl either?

He is what he is. Not as good as Dev/Hadlee/Khan etc but ****ing awesome nonetheless and too good for the Aussies twice over, leading the Poms to victory against us for the only two times in the last twenty two years.

Here's an exercise. Put yourself in the shoes of a cricketer from the current era and ask yourself Do I enjoy facing Andrew Flintoff? or Do I enjoy bowling to Andrew Flintoff? That very simple exercise is quick, easy and should give you a small clue. This is what irks me about some cricket fans. Do you think from 22 yards you're going to be thinking "Oh well, he only averages 32 with the ball. If he averaged 29 then I'd be pretty worried facing him."

As for my XI, surely you could spot that these were my personal favourites - players that struck a particular cord with me - rather than those universally accepted as being the greatest ever (Lara, Tendulkar, McGrath, Warne). I didn't bother rehashing the same team as everyone else as that is boring and has been done to death. There are plenty of posters around who are well versed in providing the boring stuff without me contributing to it :)
 
no he's the 8th best all rounder i've seen, and at least outside the top 10 given all those that i've not. He is nowhere near the best cricketer, maybe top 100, but unlikely.

BUT, he is over rated by the English press because the bloke once took 5 for in an ashes series and then took another 5 for 4 years later (and nothing else), none in between mind you and only one before that. I know exactly what some test players think when he's running in to them. He aint that flash a bowler has stats well prove.

I listed those 4 'all-rounders' as a comparison to those 'of standard' if you check my original post. No point comparing him to Lillee, or Holding or Warne. When mentioning all-rounders i didn't even mention Kallis to begin with because he in reality is a world class batsmen above all others.

But he is over-rated, people prattle on like he's the greatest thing to walk the earth and gods gift to all-rounders and he is far from it eg "too good for the Aussies twice over, leading the Poms to victory against us for the only two times in the last twenty two years". Big deal, look at them in isolation, his 2009 was paltry, he had one good innings in 4 tests. That is a classic case of over-rating a guy who achieved 3/5th's of **** all. Most of these idiots in the press or aged under 30 have him at about #2 ever. Not a great bowler, far worse than most in his field by comparison and an OK batsmen, that's how he will be remembered.

I have no problem with Johnson or Watson. They both will end up superior in numbers to Flintoff for example, especially Johnson.

We can also add Shaun Pollock to that list with more runs and a higher batting average and a far far, far superior bowling record.
 
aneale said:
BUT, he is over rated by the English press because the bloke once took 5 for in an ashes series and then took another 5 for 4 years later (and nothing else), none in between mind you and only one before that.
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Oh, is he? So you're saying that the people who brought us Henmania don't know their stuff? What a newsflash.

I know exactly what some test players think when he's running in to them. He aint that flash a bowler has stats well prove.
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No you don't. And the stats don't prove that at all.

Plenty of very good bowlers average in excess of 30. Yes the absolute champions average less than that over long careers but the idea that the 30 mark separates the good bowlers from the bad is complete rubbish and yet more BigFooty speak.

Some past and present 30+ fast bowlers just for starters: Javagal Srinath, Matthew Hoggard, Geoff Lawson, Brett Lee, Jacques Kallis (now has blown out to 31), Sarfraz Nawaz, Umar Gul, Lasith Malinga, Ishant Sharma, Morne Morkel, Danny Morrison, Jimmy Anderson, Stuart Broad, Fidel Edwards... oh, and Sir Garfield Sobers who bowled everything and is widely regarded as the greatest allrounder of all.

Perhaps make a list of the bowlers Adam Gilchrist least liked facing in world cricket. Go on, list your top one. You know the answer. I know the answer.

Us Aussie cricket fans have a real problem with Flintoff and judging him on his merits. We hated the fact that we had to sit up and watch this brash, confident bloke stand mid-pitch with arms outstretched as the Pommie fans went bananas for him and he took the Ashes away from us. Twice. On one leg the second time.

We beat them eight series in a row... one win for them and it's MBEs all round. Feted as heroes. Where's our parade?

And we can't deal with it. The Poms fawn all over him for his 2005 and 2009 feats as though he's some sort of hero. And the worst thing about it is deep down we know they're right. Bastards. So let's knock him down a peg. Let's list all the cricketers better than him. Let's point out that his bowling average was 2-3 runs higher than some other allrounders. He's not that good. Sorry England, you can stop celebrating now, the stats say so. We're petty and pathetic.
 
Carl Spackler said:
Perhaps make a list of the bowlers Adam Gilchrist least liked facing in world cricket. Go on, list your top one. You know the answer. I know the answer.
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Gilly always rated Pollock as the hardest, probably to do with all the times he knocked him over. First bloke to go round at him and jam him up. He was never a fan of Vaas either being a lefty, took away all of his advantage.
 

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I know it doesn’t really mean much and my comments on cricket (and footy for that matter) don’t really mean that much as I’m not a huge fan but If Freddy Flintoff had of signed with the Redbacks as their imported player for the 20/20 big bash this summer, 100% guarantee we would go to all the games at the Adelaide Oval. The way it stands now, we won’t go to any games this season.

Only comment on Fred Flintoff = gun. Huge fan of the big man.
 
aneale said:
Gilly always rated Pollock as the hardest, probably to do with all the times he knocked him over. First bloke to go round at him and jam him up. He was never a fan of Vaas either being a lefty, took away all of his advantage.
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Ok, if you're trolling just to have some fun at my expense, then well played. Got me hook line and sinker.

If you're not though then stop being deliberately dense and printing stuff you know isn't right.

It wasn't Pollock who started the angle-it-in theory. It was actually when left armer Alan Mullaly started knocking him over in some one dayers in the late 90's that the theory started filtering in to other English right arm fast bowlers, and in turn the rest of the world. Shoaib Akhtar actually dismissed him that way in his first test innings.

As for Pollock and Vaas... please. Both very good bowlers sure but Gilchrist would take them any day of the week over Flintoff. And did he ever get out to Vaas in a test match? Certainly Flintoff got him out more often than these guys.

There was one fast bowler in the world who made Gilchrist look like a mortal in test cricket and that was Flintoff. But keep denying it all you want. You seem determined to compensate for some English tabloid gossip columnists over-rating of Flintoff by under-rating him yourself. For reasons I cannot fathom.
 
Sorry to intrude here but I love these discussions about cricket so I could not help myself :p.

Ok I was born in 1987 to probably looking at players from 1994 as I start to have clear memories of players from about that time.


Mathew Hayden = Solid opening batsmen for a number of years who really dominated bowling attacks

Virender Sehwag = When he got his eye in he was virtually impossible to dismiss. He also was imo the most exciting opening batsmen I have ever seen so far in my life.

Brian Lara = Out of him and Punter for this position. Out of that choice anyone with half a brain would choose Lara. Arguably the second best batsmen ever.

Jacques Kallis = Stastically the best EVER allrounder. In reality he is not far off from that. Struggling to think of many or any tbh.

Sachin Tendulkar - Bradman liked him for a reason. Best eye in the game and one of the best batsmen ever. Also a handy spinner if you need.

Andrew Flower = People forget how good this guy was. Great fielder. Would take up and dominate first slip in this side. Superb batsmen as well. Great leadership on top of that.

Adam Gilchrist = Don't need to comment

Muttiah Muralitharan = Warne may be the best ever leg spinner. This guy is the best ever bowler.

Allan Donald = Still sends shiver down my spin thinking about this guy bowl. Fast, accurate (enough) and scary. Brilliant average and strike as well.

Curtly Ambrose = One of the best bowlers I have ever seen. Had every trick in the book up his sleeve.

Glenn McGrath = If you put a 5 cent piece on a pitch and told him to hit it every time you can bet he would not miss it once.
 
I'm 32 and grew up watching the might of the Windies. How would this be for a 'champions' series of Tests....

AUSTRALIA

M Hayden
J Langer
R Ponting
A Border
S Waugh
M Clarke
A Gilchrist
S Warne
J Gillespie
G McGrath
B Reid

WEST INDIES

G Greenidge
D Haynes
R Richardson
B Lara
V Richards
C Lloyd
J Dujon
M Marshall
M Holding
C Ambrose
C Walsh

INDIA

V Sehwag
D Vengsarkar
R Dravid
S Tendulkar
M Azhurrudin
VVS Laxman
MS Dhoni
Kapil Dev
A Kumble
Harbijhan Singh
J Srinath

PAKISTAN

Saaed Anwar
Salim Malik (up the order)
Javed Miandad
Mohammad Yousuf (Youhana)
Inzamam ul-Huq
Imran Khan
Kamran Akmal
Wasim Akram
Waqar Younis
Saqlain Mushtaq
Mushtaq Ahmed


SA, Eng, NZ, Minnows still working on!
 
SOUTH AFRICA

G Smith
K Wessels
G Kirsten
J Kallis
A Prince
AB de Villiers
M Boucher
S Pollock
P Adams
M Ntini
A Donald


ENGLAND

A Strauss
G Gooch
G Thorpe
K Pietersen
D Gower
I Botham
A Stewart
A Flintoff
G Swann (slim pickings)
D Gough
A Fraser


NEW ZEALAND

A Jones
N Astle
S Fleming
M Crowe
R Taylor
B McCullum
C Cairns
J Oram
R Hadlee
D Vettori
S Bond


SRI LANKA / ZIMBABWE

S Jayasuriya
A Flower
Aravinda de Silva
M Jayawardene
K Sangakarra
T Samaraweera
H Tillekeratne
C Vass
H Streak
L Malinga
M Muralitharan


No idea who i would pick to win this super-test championship. Location of games/style of pitches would have a major bearing (depending on strengths of the attacks).

Blokes that i love that haven't been mentioned a lot in the best teams (admittedly i gave myself far bigger scope:p) are Bruce Reid, Malcolm Marshall, Wasim Akram, Dan Vettori, MS Dhoni, VVS Laxman, Kumar Sangakarra, Mahela Jayawardene and Kevin Pietersen.

If i had to pick my best side (with strong leanings to personal favourites), it would be:

Virender Sehwag
Saeed Anwar
Brian Lara
Viv Richards
David Gower
Kumar Sangakarra
Imran Khan
Wasim Akram
Richard Hadlee
Malcolm Marshall
Shane Warne
 
birdmanptr said:
There a rumours and facts to support your case

HOWEVER go back to the first post in this thread and it says Players who you have seen and clearly remember
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Not really. He clearly mentions that's what he and his mate did. He placed no selection stipulations.
 

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I started watching cricket in the very early '80s, so my side is dominated by the two dominant teams since then - the Windies team from the 80s and the Australian team from the 90's and 00s.

Batsmen
Gordon Greenidge
Matthew Hayden
Viv Richards
Sachin Tendulkar
Brian Lara

All-Rounder
Imran Khan (c)

Wicket Keeper
Adam Gilchrist

Spinner
Shane Warne

Fast Bowlers
Dennis Lillee
Glenn McGrath
Michael Holding

12th Man
Curtly Ambrose

Not a lot of controversy there. The term bowlers eliminates Murali from consideration, even if he has taken more wickets than Warne.

Rod Marsh was a better keeper than Gillie, but Gilchrist's batting easily gets him the gig. What I'd gain through his batting far outweighs the minimal loss relative to Marsh's keeping ability.

3 West Indians in my batting lineup. Greenidge was the best opener of his era, as was Hayden of his. Viv will never be surpassed as "The Master Blaster". Lara wasn't really a member of that legendary group, but he formed his own legend when the team's decline had already begun. Tendulkar is a batting genius, pure & simple.

So many options for the great fast bowlers. Lillee's legend just earns him a place in the side. McGrath is by far & away the best of his era. The last position came down to a choice between Michael Holding, Andy Roberts and Curtly Ambrose (to whom Courtney Walsh was never fit to hold a candle). In the end I went with Holding, with Ambrose carrying the drinks. Roberts is unlucky - you wouldn't lose anything no matter which member of this trio were selected.

The all-rounder's position was not easy either. Many worthy candidates - Botham, Akram, Khan, Kallis and others. Many of these were much stronger in one area than the other - Kallis is primarily a batsman who can bowl, while Johnson is a bowler who can bat. In the end I went with Imran Khan, because he was so good in both departments and the way he unified the Pakistan team - something which no other player has been able to do since.

Selecting the captain was tricky. Lara & Tendulkar both captained their countries, but IMHO didn't do so with any great deal of accomplishment. Both were the finest players in their team, but I don't think either made great captains. Gilchrist was vice captain of Australia and captained the side a few times when Waugh was unavailable, but I don't particularly like the idea of having a wicketkeeper as captain. The ultimate decision though was obvious - Imran Khan united the Pakistan team in a way which nobody else seems capable of replicating. This proves his leadership ability to me and he thus becomes the captain of my side.
 
I am 21, but a stern Studier of cricket, I can not remember heaps but from what I do remember here is my Aust Xi

One Day Internationals
M.Waugh
A.Gilchrist wk
R.Ponting
D.Jones
S.Waugh c
A.Symonds
M.Hussey
A.Bichel
S.Warne
B.Lee
G.McGrath

Batting, Bowlig, Ability to win/turn a match, Fielding Australia has been blessed with god given tallent, Now we have a team of strgglers and battlers, it isnt the same class of cricketers.
 
birdmanptr said:
I say we are just starting to realize how good S.K.Warne was
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Not just Warne, McGrath Bowled good balls to take wickets and was able to attack a batsman, Symonds played some amazing cricket shots and had so much power yet was so agile and eligant in the field, Haydon was able to Rape bowling attacks yet how good was he in the Gully for such a Massive man, Langers Heart was the size of Pharlaps and his desire and ability to will himself on in the contest was AMAZING, Mark Waugh was a gun if only he tried fielding or batting he could do it, Steve Waugh's Ruthlesnes and Kill attitude is something we will probably never see again, Ponting see M.Waugh, Dean Jones had that Swagger and ability, Warne... Gilespie was able to Produce wickets with his varyation yet still hit the spot time and time again! these guys were a class above, Hodge lacked it, Siddle may have it, Johnson and Haritz deff do not have it, We were gifted Cricketing gods for far to long!
 

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RangaInTeal said:
Batting, Bowlig, Ability to win/turn a match, Fielding Australia has been blessed with god given tallent, Now we have a team of strgglers and battlers, it isnt the same class of cricketers.
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Couldn’t be that bad, didn’t we just win the ICC champions trophy (less than 12 months ago), current world cup one day champs and still ranked 1 in the world?

Bit harsh mate.
 
crows98 said:
Couldn’t be that bad, didn’t we just win the ICC champions trophy (less than 12 months ago), current world cup one day champs and still ranked 1 in the world?

Bit harsh mate.
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The standard of cricket has dropped considerably, take the 2002 Ashes side and compare it to the 2010 summer's side... England may have got better, South Affrica may have got better, NewZeland has gone down hill, India I would say are in a stronger possition now but IPL plays a big part in that, Pakistan Down Hill, West Indies ahh, so really I think the standard has dropped making the gap between the top four sides much smaller. We are still the best cricket nation in the world and will continue to be, but the world cricket is in a Massive decline and probably will be over the next 5-10 years, untill the next generation of kids come through, the ones who are growing up on T20 cricket.
 
RangaInTeal said:
The standard of cricket has dropped considerably, take the 2002 Ashes side and compare it to the 2010 summer's side... England may have got better, South Affrica may have got better, NewZeland has gone down hill, India I would say are in a stronger possition now but IPL plays a big part in that, Pakistan Down Hill, West Indies ahh, so really I think the standard has dropped making the gap between the top four sides much smaller. We are still the best cricket nation in the world and will continue to be, but the world cricket is in a Massive decline and probably will be over the next 5-10 years, untill the next generation of kids come through, the ones who are growing up on T20 cricket.
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Of course cricket (ATM) is in decline, I don’t think the sport has become weaker but the past generation has just witnessed something magical.

Australia in the last 18 months has lost 2 generational players, possibly 2nd and 3rd on the all time list of great players after Sir Donald Bradman to represent this country.

I don’t believe the standard of cricket has dropped (per sa) but the natural order of expectations is resorting itself. Because of how talented Warne and McGrath were, our own expectations for what we expect to see on the field was increased so dramatically anything after that will be seen as a drop. The bar was raised so high, anything that came afterwards could not be of compassion.

The player representing Australia ATM are fine players, but because Warne and McGrath set the bar so high, they look like sub standard players. As i said, they are still the ICC champions trophy winner and ranked 1st in one day cricket.

Not too shabby but compared to Warne and McGrath – they look like bums. Something they are not.
 
aneale said:
I'd have it as that at the very least. Deadly Derek was a gun.
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Yep, wish i was old enough to watch that era of Aust v England. Have a 70's cricket vid though and you're right, Underwood was a very tricky customer. It's hard to believe the dearth of quality spinners England has produced. Too many green tops and short matches i guess? Probably hurts their quickies when playing overseas as well but i digress.
 
TheLeftFist8 said:
Yep, wish i was old enough to watch that era of Aust v England. Have a 70's cricket vid though and you're right, Underwood was a very tricky customer. It's hard to believe the dearth of quality spinners England has produced. Too many green tops and short matches i guess? Probably hurts their quickies when playing overseas as well but i digress.
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I remember 1971 late Jan MCG hosting their second test of the summer Thommo bowling to Cowdery he hit him time and time again
 

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