Dank's D-day looms....April 10th

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Thrawn said:
Essendon's sudden drop in form - show cause notices, perhaps?
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Coming back from Perth the week before is my guess.
 

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mxett said:
Garnham understands the context and technique regarding the use of AOD at Essendon and has deemed it safe. He knows far more than you in this area wouldn't you say??
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Garnham should not have deemed it safe, period. Nobody knows - could possibly know - what the combination of these cocktails could do to the physiology of individual players.
 
Duckworth said:
Sorry for jumping in...
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Did you read the studies at all? No, I didn't think so. The majority of studies have been done using oral (pill) or transdermal (cream) application. Injections have only been used to establish dosage range. AT MOST patients received 3 injections at the beginning of the trial, and from then on changed to oral. Prof Wittert who is the most qualified physician in Australia to conduct these tests has categorically said that, even in the stage to test for dosage tolerance (via injections) there were adverse effects on the patients. He believes it impossible to declare the compound safe for use under conditions for which the drug was never tested.
 
jenny61_99 said:
Did you read the studies at all? No, I didn't think so. The majority of studies have been done using oral (pill) or transdermal (cream) application. Injections have only been used to establish dosage range. AT MOST patients received 3 injections at the beginning of the trial, and from then on changed to oral. Prof Wittert who is the most qualified physician in Australia to conduct these tests has categorically said that, even in the stage to test for dosage tolerance (via injections) there were adverse effects on the patients. He believes it impossible to declare the compound safe for use under conditions for which the drug was never tested.
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Did you read what I posted? I think not. First of all I said quite clearly the trials were done at low doses. Remember that bit? Also, in one trial patients received 4 injections over 4 weeks, so you are wrong the most is not 3. If you read and understand how clinical trials work you would understand that the placebo group experience side effects as well. That is why they have said the safety profile is indestinguisable from the placebo.

Please do a bit of research before rushing on here and claiming I am wrong.
 
Duckworth said:
Did you read what I posted? I think not. First of all I said quite clearly the trials were done at low doses. Remember that bit? Also, in one trial patients received 4 injections over 4 weeks, so you are wrong the most is not 3. If you read and understand how clinical trials work you would understand that the placebo group experience side effects as well. That is why they have said the safety profile is indestinguisable from the placebo.

Please do a bit of research before rushing on here and claiming I am wrong.
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Mate clinical trials are part and parcel of my work so please don't tell me to do my research. I've had interesting discussions with Prof Wittert over this and he is adamant that safety of the compound that has been used contrary to existing studies, cannot be given. And let's not forget that this compound has not received approval for human therapeutic use at all anywhere in the world. The drug is still experimental and should NEVER have been used on your athletes. I'd be ******* ropable of my team had used this product on my players.
 
jenny61_99 said:
Garnham should not have deemed it safe, period. Nobody knows - could possibly know - what the combination of these cocktails could do to the physiology of individual players.
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after 6 meetings with players families,you would think somebody has delivered the ultimate answer to the group and deemed it not worthy of worrying about.
to think that nobody has gone outside of those meetings to seek another opinion is not computing with me.
somebody out of all those parents and players must have got a second opinion.?
if garnham is the only opinion sought,you would be foolish and foolish still,not seeking more advice.
 
van peebles said:
to think that nobody has gone outside of those meetings to seek another opinion is not computing with me.
somebody out of all those parents and players must have got a second opinion.?
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My mail says they have. They've kept it quiet but there will always be someone who recognises a player walking through the reception of a law office.

In fact I would be surprised if there are any players who have not sought independant advice. Given that this was all exacerbated by them NOT doing so in the first place.
 
jenny61_99 said:
Mate clinical trials are part and parcel of my work so please don't tell me to do my research. I've had interesting discussions with Prof Wittert over this and he is adamant that safety of the compound that has been used contrary to existing studies, cannot be given. And let's not forget that this compound has not received approval for human therapeutic use at all anywhere in the world. The drug is still experimental and should NEVER have been used on your athletes. I'd be ******* ropable of my team had used this product on my players.
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Take some of your own advice. Don't quote me and question what I know. (especially when you got it wrong on the maximum number of injections given in a trial). If you work with clinical trials, you would know that placebo patients experience adverse affects as well (so saying the patients on AOD experience adverse effects is irrelevant if you don't compare to the placebo group).

As for the rest of your post, if you read what I wrote, you would see that I agree that it shouldn't have been used.
 
Chief said:
My mail says they have. They've kept it quiet but there will always be someone who recognises a player walking through the reception of a law office.

In fact I would be surprised if there are any players who have not sought independant advice. Given that this was all exacerbated by them NOT doing so in the first place.
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spoke to a family member of a player and he said 6 parent meetings was and is unheard of at any level of sport in australia or the world for that matter.
interesting the family member said he too had questions and the parents said ,"we are happy with the way its been handled".
 
Duckworth said:
Take some of your own advice. Don't quote me and question what I know. (especially when you got it wrong on the maximum number of injections given in a trial). If you work with clinical trials, you would know that placebo patients experience adverse affects as well (so saying the patients on AOD experience adverse effects is irrelevant if you don't compare to the placebo group).

As for the rest of your post, if you read what I wrote, you would see that I agree that it shouldn't have been used.
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Prof Wittert was stating the effects of the compound on study participants, not the placebo recipients. He was of the (informed) opinion that the compound caused adverse effects when injected (rather than when given orally). However, it's not these findings that concern me. It's the findings of the studies done when you combine the drug with OTHER drugs and then administer it to players by either subcutaneous injection or by IV. But of course you won't find these results because the studies HAVE NEVER BEEN DONE. Therefore, it is impossible to state with any real confidence that this compound is safe given the circumstances and methods with which it was administered to Essendon players. And I'm not talking here and now safe, I'm talking long term safe.
 

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jenny61_99 said:
Prof Wittert was stating the effects of the compound on study participants, not the placebo recipients. He was of the (informed) opinion that the compound caused adverse effects when injected (rather than when given orally).
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He was quoted in saying that in an article yes, although the papers (most that he was involved in) say that
AOD9604 displayed a very good safety and tolerability profile indistinguishable from placebo.
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which is contradictory, and leads us back around to the fact there haven't been enough studies, and we don't really know what the effects are and shouldn's use it (basically the rest of your post).

edit: to clarify, this was for discussing low doses.
 
van peebles said:
after 6 meetings with players families,you would think somebody has delivered the ultimate answer to the group and deemed it not worthy of worrying about.
to think that nobody has gone outside of those meetings to seek another opinion is not computing with me.
somebody out of all those parents and players must have got a second opinion.?
if garnham is the only opinion sought,you would be foolish and foolish still,not seeking more advice.
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Gotta keep mum for now, busy trying to get the players off....

It's gunna go off when the infractions come
 
I Rock said:
Sounds fancy, however with all the digital tools and pre amp guitar rigs these days you don't need much gear or expense. Truth be told it's more of a graphic design studio than recording.
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You Art Rocker you:p;)
 
chelseacarlton said:
:eek:
;)
I know what you mean!.
Have quietly handed the torch to my son.
A bloody LOUD torch:eek:
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Ha, brilliant.

As much as my 20's were a s**t load of fun. I kind of wish I hadn't squandered so much of my time pissing it up against the wall. Then maybe I wouldn't be asking if it's time to pull a Detective Murtaugh or not (for all of those too young to know the beauty of the Lethal Weapon series a visual aid is postered below) on all the comic book and music stuff.
e8a883f6d85b6110b8028907c90818617909ae723b0f5ad3c48d41fe5bf84b1a.jpg
 
I Rock said:
(for all of those too young to know the beauty of the Lethal Weapon series
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slightly of topic, but are you freaking serious? "The beauty"? For those too young to know, it was one okay movie and a few very very bad sequels which were made primarily to make money rather than for their artistic content.

Back on topic.
 
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