No Oppo Supporters CAS hands down guilty verdict - Players appealing - Dank shot - no opposition - (cont in pt.2)

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kelvin_sheedy said:
Dirty tricks being played by Asada. A few days left of response time and they push their case via the media.

Not surprising the volume of articles. These people and their entourage are low life scum.
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ASADA feeding media is a bit rich! They should be independent? Because nothing gets in their way in dealing with the matter professionally. Oh, but they feed to media. Oh yeah, they're average. I forgot. :drunk:
 
pepsi said:
Whenever you can't remember something, the best and ultimately most successful defense is.......I can't recall.
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rines said:
The 'dosage profile' is incredibly stupid to use in a doping case as it can be applied to MULTIPLE substances, also the consent forms ACTUALLY lists the dosage profile for Thymomodulin (once a week x 6 weeks) NOT everyday like TB4. So if you want to apply a 'dosage profile' then it SUPPORTS the club using Thymomodulin NOT TB4.
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It's the other way around. The dosage profile on the consent forms matches TB4 (Masters was wrong). TB4 is weekly. Thymomodulin is daily. The dosage profile matching TB4 on the consent forms is the most damning evidence in the public arena.
 
It's the other way around. The dosage profile on the consent forms matches TB4 (Masters was wrong). TB4 is weekly. Thymomodulin is daily. The dosage profile matching TB4 on the consent forms is the most damning evidence in the public arena.
Has this been produced in the media by anyone. Massive f... up! Swaying public the wrong way! Maybe they're waiting for court case to expose this. Might be worth dropping down to 'their' level and expose this mistake in 'the media'?
 
rines said:
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE just put me on ignore.. You are so predictable it becomes boring.

The 'dosage profile' is incredibly stupid to use in a doping case as it can be applied to MULTIPLE substances, also the consent forms ACTUALLY lists the dosage profile for Thymomodulin (once a week x 6 weeks) NOT everyday like TB4. So if you want to apply a 'dosage profile' then it SUPPORTS the club using Thymomodulin NOT TB4.

Other national bodies have had to investigate doping claims for ENTIRE sporting events, like MULTIPLE teams (cycling for example) which makes it harder as you have 400+ people involved in one way and it can involve multiple countries etc etc. Other investigations have included Weight Lifting teams that included squads of over 150 athletes (mainly eastern block, but more recently SE Asia). In those cases it is FAR more complicated because you have ZERO co-operation from the sport, athletes also no 'consent' forms whatsoever.. nor are you able to so easily 'track' the shipments back to China because they are SECRETIVE and SMUGGLE the 'goods' in... you know.. to AVOID detection!!!

Seriously get a grip, we supposedly ran a 'highly sophisticated' doping program.. but then made sure it was documented through official invoices/consent forms/allowed player interviews/opened up our records... yeah OK.. good job. As you to your dramatic "a supply chain leading back to China"... seriously? Over 80% of the goods used in Australia have supply chains leading back to China. Is China our new 'Mexico'... is it scary for you to understand we live in a GLOBAL community.. where goods can be shipped cheaply all around the globe? I would suggest that the reason why the product is sourced in China is 100% relating to 'cost' not some clandestine plan to 'get away' with doping. As I am sure you are well aware before making you ridiculously prejudicial post, over 70% of Australian pharmaceuticals are now sourced in China, or have core components sourced in China.

You appear, sadly, to be one of 'those' Australians that still looks down on China as some inferior country or somehow not as 'pure' as Australia. I can assure you that is not the case. They now have very sophisticated production methods for just about everything. Their prices are lower as they have an over-supply of workers and very little worker protection (although that is changing daily) but it does NOT always mean you are getting 'inferior' products.

If any AFL players have taken an Advil in the last four years... then ASADA can paint a 'supply chain leading to China' pretty easily too... The fact that CHARTERS (NOT employed by EFC) sourced some TB4 from China has absolutely ZERO bearing on this case... other than to create media sensationalism relying on the natural Xenophobia that some Australians, such as yourself, still sadly feel. ASADA can show Charters importing 100kg of Steroids from China if they like.. doesn't make one ounce of difference to a case against EFC players until they can prove that A) the supplements were ordered by EFC (not an agent but an authorised officer of the club), B) the supplements were intended for use by Athletes, C) the supplements WERE delivered to the club (like the physical club, not an employee) and D) the supplements were administered to individual athletes. As far as we know.. ASADA can't do any of that.. not even close. So I really don't give a s**t that the can prove a small amount of TB4 was ordered by Charters and arrived in this country from the big, bad and scary CHINA...

Compared to the job some Doping bodies have to try and catch REAL doping cheats... this is nothing.. this is ONLY complicated because ASADA are trying to draw imaginary lines to connect impossible events to create a narrative that makes them look competent and justify their over-inflated budgets. IF any player thought they had actually been given TB4 then I would expect deals made last year.. but they have steadfastly stated they are innocent.

How about you try trusting the players for once rather than McDumbnuts and the media??

A 'slam dunk' case does NOT take 2 years to investigate and have THREE different ASADA lawyers recommend that they don't proceed. You are aware that is what the delay was between August last year and the issuing of SCN's in June right? They didn't want to move forward because they knew they would lose.. and then McDumbnuts was told that you can issue SCN's on the 'possibility' of doping.. and so ahead they went..

Until there is one single CLEAN piece of evidence that suggests the players were given TB4 then I will support, believe and trust in them.
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Long. Did read.
 

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Duckworth said:
It's the other way around. The dosage profile on the consent forms matches TB4 (Masters was wrong). TB4 is weekly. Thymomodulin is daily. The dosage profile matching TB4 on the consent forms is the most damning evidence in the public arena.
Click to expand...
Then it goes back to the fact that there are about thirty 'dosage profiles' going around for both substances.

I really have never heard of an athlete being suspended because of a matching 'dosage profile' that may, or may not, apply to literally hundreds of legal and illegal supplements.
 
Rines - Great post - It's also my understanding that ASADA lawyers advised against issuing Show Cause notices. This is why I asked the question months ago - Was their political interference in the issuing of Show Cause notices.
 
BOMBERS 4 LIFE!!!! said:
If the players don't agree to the Asada penalties then no one can stop them from playing.
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Well Essendon can refuse to select the players. How you ever seen a non-selected player take the field?
 
Caro has tried for many years to lay a hand on Eddie, but to no avail, as he is untouchable.

The whole debate about compensation is ridiculous - Eade has taken a better job and we move on.
 
Richard Ings @ringsau · 4h4 hours ago
PM - ASADA reasoning on privacy slammed 29/10/2014 12 NRL cases are resolved. Names should be posted as per rules http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2014/s4117372.htm…

Just another minor protocol circumvented by this lousy ADA. They'll follow the rules when it suits their agenda (no, AFLPA - we must wait for due process, and can't possibly bypass the ADRVP stage to have this heard by the AFL tribunal any earlier), however we are "unable" to meet our legislated obligations due to "privacy" concerns re: Cronulla.
 
rines said:
PLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEASE just put me on ignore.. You are so predictable it becomes boring.

The 'dosage profile' is incredibly stupid to use in a doping case as it can be applied to MULTIPLE substances, also the consent forms ACTUALLY lists the dosage profile for Thymomodulin (once a week x 6 weeks) NOT everyday like TB4. So if you want to apply a 'dosage profile' then it SUPPORTS the club using Thymomodulin NOT TB4.

Other national bodies have had to investigate doping claims for ENTIRE sporting events, like MULTIPLE teams (cycling for example) which makes it harder as you have 400+ people involved in one way and it can involve multiple countries etc etc. Other investigations have included Weight Lifting teams that included squads of over 150 athletes (mainly eastern block, but more recently SE Asia). In those cases it is FAR more complicated because you have ZERO co-operation from the sport, athletes also no 'consent' forms whatsoever.. nor are you able to so easily 'track' the shipments back to China because they are SECRETIVE and SMUGGLE the 'goods' in... you know.. to AVOID detection!!!

Seriously get a grip, we supposedly ran a 'highly sophisticated' doping program.. but then made sure it was documented through official invoices/consent forms/allowed player interviews/opened up our records... yeah OK.. good job. As you to your dramatic "a supply chain leading back to China"... seriously? Over 80% of the goods used in Australia have supply chains leading back to China. Is China our new 'Mexico'... is it scary for you to understand we live in a GLOBAL community.. where goods can be shipped cheaply all around the globe? I would suggest that the reason why the product is sourced in China is 100% relating to 'cost' not some clandestine plan to 'get away' with doping. As I am sure you are well aware before making you ridiculously prejudicial post, over 70% of Australian pharmaceuticals are now sourced in China, or have core components sourced in China.

You appear, sadly, to be one of 'those' Australians that still looks down on China as some inferior country or somehow not as 'pure' as Australia. I can assure you that is not the case. They now have very sophisticated production methods for just about everything. Their prices are lower as they have an over-supply of workers and very little worker protection (although that is changing daily) but it does NOT always mean you are getting 'inferior' products.

If any AFL players have taken an Advil in the last four years... then ASADA can paint a 'supply chain leading to China' pretty easily too... The fact that CHARTERS (NOT employed by EFC) sourced some TB4 from China has absolutely ZERO bearing on this case... other than to create media sensationalism relying on the natural Xenophobia that some Australians, such as yourself, still sadly feel. ASADA can show Charters importing 100kg of Steroids from China if they like.. doesn't make one ounce of difference to a case against EFC players until they can prove that A) the supplements were ordered by EFC (not an agent but an authorised officer of the club), B) the supplements were intended for use by Athletes, C) the supplements WERE delivered to the club (like the physical club, not an employee) and D) the supplements were administered to individual athletes. As far as we know.. ASADA can't do any of that.. not even close. So I really don't give a s**t that the can prove a small amount of TB4 was ordered by Charters and arrived in this country from the big, bad and scary CHINA...

Compared to the job some Doping bodies have to try and catch REAL doping cheats... this is nothing.. this is ONLY complicated because ASADA are trying to draw imaginary lines to connect impossible events to create a narrative that makes them look competent and justify their over-inflated budgets. IF any player thought they had actually been given TB4 then I would expect deals made last year.. but they have steadfastly stated they are innocent.

How about you try trusting the players for once rather than McDumbnuts and the media??

A 'slam dunk' case does NOT take 2 years to investigate and have THREE different ASADA lawyers recommend that they don't proceed. You are aware that is what the delay was between August last year and the issuing of SCN's in June right? They didn't want to move forward because they knew they would lose.. and then McDumbnuts was told that you can issue SCN's on the 'possibility' of doping.. and so ahead they went..

Until there is one single CLEAN piece of evidence that suggests the players were given TB4 then I will support, believe and trust in them.
Click to expand...

This is a really good and well informed post. Thank you Rines. I always understood the Chinese angle was being worked to emphasize that the substances were imported which is not an issue in itself but the substances do need to be declared to customs and the chemical makeup needs to be declared. I think the media have been playing a pretty dodgy game of appealing to the underlying racism that is apparent in our society. I would think that the details of the substances were declared by Charters or whomever imported them and that this information is discoverable. That was my understanding of the focus on the Chinese connection but I totally agree with you that this has been played out under a racist banner.

Now, I have no idea if or what Charters declared, but a strong piece of supporting evidence in favor of Essendon is that Charters had no need to not, or falsely declare. From what we all understand, there was no declaration that has been discovered that indicates that the imported substance was TB4. I don't even think Dank knew it was a banned substance at that point and I doubt that Charters had any idea what this would be used for so why would Charters make either a false declaration or no declaration for something that was entirely legal? Contrast this with making a false declaration and facing prison time (not that Charters seems to consider this much of a deterrent). So anyway, the Chinese angle is relevant but not because it is China and not because it indicates something dodgy; as Rines states, pretty much all of the worlds leading companies rely on China for the manufacture of all sorts of products and the reason that China is used is because they do have a judicial system that companies can work with, they have a great education system and hence very well developed production methodologies and they are relatively cheap and high quality.

If I was buying "supplements", I would feel much more comfortable if they came from China than some back-street in Fitzroy.....

On the other point that Rines was making; that the Essendon supplement program was not a sophisticated operation. I strongly believe that this operation was entirely amateur, if anything banned was taken, the players were duped and that even the guys administering the program probably did not know the ASADA/WADA code in enough detail to even make decent decisions (which is not to suggest that anything banned was ingested) . If people want good examples of a sophisticated doping regime, they should do some research on Lance!! However, the sophistication of the program and the length of the investigation are not really related. I have no issue in the length of the investigation, but I have a very big issue with the way it has been played out in public. Ideally, none of us would have heard any of this until the SC notices were issued. The way this has played out has been a disgrace.
 
Question for Alvi. (or someone who knows). What part of a vial of TB4 gets destroyed when exposed. is it the bad part, and just leaves the good parts?
 
Go_Blues! said:
This is a really good and well informed post. Thank you Rines. I always understood the Chinese angle was being worked to emphasize that the substances were imported which is not an issue in itself but the substances do need to be declared to customs and the chemical makeup needs to be declared. I think the media have been playing a pretty dodgy game of appealing to the underlying racism that is apparent in our society. I would think that the details of the substances were declared by Charters or whomever imported them and that this information is discoverable. That was my understanding of the focus on the Chinese connection but I totally agree with you that this has been played out under a racist banner.

Now, I have no idea if or what Charters declared, but a strong piece of supporting evidence in favor of Essendon is that Charters had no need to not, or falsely declare. From what we all understand, there was no declaration that has been discovered that indicates that the imported substance was TB4. I don't even think Dank knew it was a banned substance at that point and I doubt that Charters had any idea what this would be used for so why would Charters make either a false declaration or no declaration for something that was entirely legal? Contrast this with making a false declaration and facing prison time (not that Charters seems to consider this much of a deterrent). So anyway, the Chinese angle is relevant but not because it is China and not because it indicates something dodgy; as Rines states, pretty much all of the worlds leading companies rely on China for the manufacture of all sorts of products and the reason that China is used is because they do have a judicial system that companies can work with, they have a great education system and hence very well developed production methodologies and they are relatively cheap and high quality.

If I was buying "supplements", I would feel much more comfortable if they came from China than some back-street in Fitzroy.....

On the other point that Rines was making; that the Essendon supplement program was not a sophisticated operation. I strongly believe that this operation was entirely amateur, if anything banned was taken, the players were duped and that even the guys administering the program probably did not know the ASADA/WADA code in enough detail to even make decent decisions (which is not to suggest that anything banned was ingested) . If people want good examples of a sophisticated doping regime, they should do some research on Lance!! However, the sophistication of the program and the length of the investigation are not really related. I have no issue in the length of the investigation, but I have a very big issue with the way it has been played out in public. Ideally, none of us would have heard any of this until the SC notices were issued. The way this has played out has been a disgrace.
Click to expand...

I'm going to ask this question because you are obviously well versed in this situation and feel free to not answer...

how and when do YOU see this ending? what's the most likely outcome?

I know you can't make a 100% informed opinion because as it seems the landscape changes amost daily but I'm
curious..
 
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